Everything wrong with Kyler vs Seattle Part II - Revenge of the checkdown

[kerouac9]

That ball to hit Hop in stride would have to go to the left hash, and when ball was released the LB covering Ertz was directly in said thorwing window with eyes on QB. Likely a batted ball or INT without insane touch there. Yes there was 1 on 1 with Anderson up top but with that guy obviously probably a low percentage play.

Also note again interior pressure rushing 4 and deep LB drops.

Yeah but Hop has the leverage before going into his break. If Kyler sees the 1:1 he can throw Hop open.

 

[MaoTosiFanClub]

This is 4 yards?

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40-50 yards in the air. This would have to be such an insane throw to connect.

I get it, he's paid a lot of money and he needs to connect on throws like this sometimes but 3rd and 19 (through no fault of his own) this is a huge ask.

 

[MaoTosiFanClub]

Yeah but Hop has the leverage before going into his break. If Kyler sees the 1:1 he can throw Hop open.

Throwing guys open is more the problem than missing open WR's is what I am seeing.

But again that's up to the player and the coach to figure out. Repetitions, film work, experience, etc. Hell sometimes it's just flat out feel for the game. Kyler-Kliff aren't on the same page at all, our OL is garbage, constant mental mistakes that cost yards, and we can't run the ball. Pretty easy to see why we suck.

 

[kerouac9]

It's like sleeping with Sporty Spice when you had your pick of the bunch.

Hate to see Sporty take the stray here.

Ginger
Posh
Sporty
Baby

 

[Cheesebeef]

One would think an "obvious flaw" would expose itself frequently over a 4 season sample size. But Kyler has fumbled as a ball carrier at an extremely low rate. Some folks struggle to think beyond what they last saw on their television I guess. Recency bias might be the right term.

And some people choose to bury their head in the sand about an issue, making ludicrous excuses that imply Kyler might actually fly off his axis if he dared carry the ball like every runner is taught to do since pop Warner and actually protected the ball.

It’s not recency bias when people have been saying the way he holds the ball is problematic FOR YEARS.

and the fact that after the first Seattle game where he was AWFUL and had that killer fumble… he corrected NOTHING, then did it again and in the post game, STILL didn’t see anything wrong with what he did says just awful things about taking any accountability. Fans and coaches like you only compound that problem.

 

[BritCard]

Remember defenders can't teleport but footballs thrown 40-50 yards can

lol, you still going on about that huge window as if it was a difficult throw or is there something else?

Here's Kyler throwing that exact same pass to the sidelines. It's the first play in this highlight reel. I suggest you all watch it so you can remember what a good QB looks like.

Y'all starting to sound like battered wives "It's not his fault. He can't help it"

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[BritCard]

Hate to see Sporty take the stray here.

Ginger
Posh
Sporty
Baby

Is that Baby BELOW Sporty?

 

[Chopper0080]

It's very obvious to anyone with eyes that something is wrong with Kyler.

His USP as an NFL QB through his first 3 years has been as an accurate downfield thrower. Someone with great tight window accuracy that can hurt you downfield and if you try to take that away he will hurt you with his legs underneath.

That seems to have gone and intermediate throws he would make with ease just aren't an option anymore because he doesn't have patience in the pocket.

This first play is the 3rd drive of the game early in Q2 with the score 10-7. The 1st drive we saw live went about as good as it could be. Best opening drive of the season. Drive 2 was 3 and out after Prices bad snap so we start with drive 3. It's 2nd and 9 after a run that went nowhere on 1st down.

The first thing I want you to notice is Kyler has a good pocket. Protection is good and he has more time than he takes to throw this pass. So this isn't a protection issue.

The second thing to look at is how many receivers are open when Kyler hitches. McBride had a fantastic get off and is streaking down the bottom of the screen for a big gain. Hopkins is coming open on the post from the slot if he pump fakes to Ertz he has a big gain to Nuk. And if he waits a second longer Moore will be open on a dig.

But watch Kyler eyes. They never leave Ertz. He stares him down from the snap. There are no progressions. He decided pre snap this was going to Ertz for 6 yards and instead of a 1st down and a 20 yard gain it's 3rd and 4. The football is a hot potato that he wants to get out as quickly as possible.

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This is the next play and I really don't know what is happening here with Kyler.

Again, he has plenty of time. From the snap to him scrambling he has 4 seconds.

Pause this at 5 seconds. Nuk is open for a 1st down. Ertz is open for almost certainly a first down. Rondale is open for a large gain. The only player not open on this play is Robbie Anderson.

Why doesn't he make the simple pass to Hopkins?

As it plays out he held the ball so long the defender is astounded and with his jaw gaping stumbles into Rondale to draw a penalty.

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The next play on this drive was the screen to Conner. And while it's not Kyler related it got a lot of negativity in the game thread so I thought I would show it.

For me it's a well designed play and the opportunity was there for a big gain but Price is late getting out to block Woolen. Price is supposed to be leading Conner but is late getting there.

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On the next play we have a short pass to Nuk that was designed that way leaving us 3rd and 4. Then on 3rd we get a false start putting us in 3rd and 9 (the false start was on Price also. Both tackles started and Price snapped late).

Then they false start again. I think also on Price because everyone moves except Price. Looks like Price just has the timing all wrong and is struggling with the silent snaps. The whole line looks pissed off with him.

Which brings us to this 3rd and 19.

This might be one of the dumbest things I've ever seen Kyler do.

He has all the time in the world. It's 3rd and 19 and you throw to Conner to not even get back to the original LOS?

You have Ertz on and out route for 1st down. You throw that and worse case it's incomplete out of bounds.

You have Rondale wide open with his speed and ability in space with 7 yards to get the 1st down.

You have Anderson coming open on a crossing route.

You could tuck it and run to the left with only 1 man to beat.

The absolute worst option is Conner. And that's the end of the drive. I'll add more as I get time.

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1st play, clear miss.

2nd play, Kyler manufactured pressure by Humphries driving his oppo inside. Even if he felt he missed Hop initially, Ertz was breaking in as well and was open.

3rd play. The Kliff brigade wins here. Poor timing and execution of the screen which fits the critiques.

4th play, Kyler panics despite having escaped pressure and now having time. Moore was right in front of him and was the better option and a natural place for him to look as it was a crossing route underneath the S who are held deep by other routes. Not sure Moore would have gotten there but Kyler panicked here.

 

[BritCard]

40-50 yards in the air. This would have to be such an insane throw to connect.

I get it, he's paid a lot of money and he needs to connect on throws like this sometimes but 3rd and 19 (through no fault of his own) this is a huge ask.

Dude it's a 30 yard throw. 35 max.

 

[kerouac9]

Is that Baby BELOW Sporty?

Yup. Tough but fair.

 

[Chopper0080]

The next drive (Drive 5) is late in Q2 and it starts well enough. From the 5 yard line Kyler finds Rondale on a crossing route for a nice gain of 10+. He then picks up 20+ on a run that gets us up around the 40 and then a couple of bad plays put us into 3rd and 14.

The bad plays were a screen poorly blocked by Hopkins that blows up before Anderson can move and Kyler overthrowing on the run. Neither were on Kyler.

And then we get here...

Most will remember this play where Eno fights for the 1st down. We do get there and extend the drive. But look how many guys are open for big gains.

This is 2 minute drill stuff, not much time left in the half and we need to score. You will see Kliff screaming for the TO at the end of the play.

Firstly, Kyler has a tonne of time and he's looking downfield at the open guys. Hopkins is WIDE open. Anderson is WIDE open. Yes, there is a safety way over the top but any NFL caliber QB should be able to place the ball where only those guys can get it. We have seen Kyler make these throws repeatedly in his career.

Even Ertz is a better option for the first down. He's right in front of Kyler with a tonne of space. We need to get into FG range and while we get lucky and Eno batles for the 1st it's the worst of 4 good option. It's like sleeping with Sporty Spice when you had your pick of the bunch.

Nuk should have been the pass.

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1st and 10 on the next play. Good pocket. Kyler has time.

If he just waits not even half a second Hopkins is splitting the safeties. Instead it's a 6 yard check down.

I don't mind the 6 yards to Rondale except in this situation where the clock is running out. There is 54 seconds left in the half here.

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The next play on 2nd down is well covered. It's the only play on 5 drives so far I can honestly say is well covered and Kyler throws it away.

On 3rd down Anderson drops the easy one which was an egregious drop.

Then on 4th down we get this.

No doubt here that Beachum does poorly and gets pushed back into Kyler. But this is the 5th drive and so far the O line has been fine. I haven't seen any of this yet, I'm sure there is more to come.

Fumble aside by biggest issue here is Nuk is open for the first down and could go out of bounds to stop the clock.

It's 4th down. It's Deandre Hopkins. He's the only player going to the sideline. This should be the first read and the ball should be out as Hopkins breaks.

End of half

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First play here, I agree. CB was flatfooted and Kyler needs to see the deep safety and throw Hop open late. My biggest critique is that even if he didn't see that, hitting Eno underneath in stride and with space to get out of bounds would have been an acceptable decision. Instead he doesn't seem to understand what he is seeing which causes him to hold onto the ball way too long.

2nd play, no issue.

3rd play. probably should be looking for the out to Hopkins because the DB has poor leverage. Nothing else really open here and the biggest issue is easily the fumble.

 

[Cardsfaninlouky]

After the drive above the Seahawks have a short drive and fail to convert on 4th down. We get the ball back quickly.

This is the first play of the drive. An actual rollout out of under center to pass, and it works well. Kyler has a tonne of time. Just very late on the throw.

Ertz is open forever and screaming for the ball but just comes too late. I've recorded both angles here so you can see.

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The 2nd down play is a designed Kyler run with Conner leading which takes us to 3rd and 4. It should have got more but a bad play by Ford let Shelby Harris get off his block and tackle Kyler.

This is the resulting 3rd down play.

Hopkins is clearly open on the dig but Kyler throws the ball behind him allowing Woolen to make a play. Hopkins reaction says it all. Again both angles here so you can see clearly.

Pause at 22 seconds and you can clearly see how far behind Hopkins it is.

Drive over.

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You have way too much time on your hands lol.

 

[Chopper0080]

One other thing to note - defense is eyes up and in zone rushing 4 yet still getting decent to good push on almost all of these videos. That is a tough scenario for any QB.

Kyler needs to play better (the fumble was absolutely inexcusable) but to suggest he's not playing at a disadvantage due to playcalling and surrounding talent is flat-out bizarre.

I feel like your assertion that Kyler isn't anticipating players breaking open and is waiting to see it which closes the window on some easy reads and throws is accurate. From my experience that comes from a lack of understanding what defenses are trying to do and how you need to attack those.

Where my criticism comes up that I don't believe Kyler knows how to pre-snap read, post-snap confirm, and then understand how to attack what he sees. Some of that is coaching but in my experience that is where professional players separate themselves though independent study.

 

[Cardsfaninlouky]

This team has major issues, and to even think Murray is the main culprit is ridiculous. We have penalties galore (12 last game), we have absolute trash in the trenches on BOTH sides of the ball, we have zero running game (Murray is our leading rusher for the season), and our coaching cannot teach even fundamental situational complementary football. Look around the NFL right now. Offenses are mostly struggling right now. Allen may have a serious elbow (nerve issue) injury. In the last 7 quarters, he has 4 picks & zero touchdowns. Rodgers looks like he’s never played before, and his last game was against the statistically worst D in the NFL. Herbert is missing key players & looked very pedestrian against the worst pass D in the NFL. Even Mahomes had 8 straight series against TN without producing a point. But, his D kept him in the game against an offense with no ability to throw the ball. The NFL won’t tolerate this, so don’t be surprised if the rules get tweaked again in the offseason to further favor the O. Eventually, defenses will be forced to wear blindfolders. Can Murray play better? Absolutely. He definitely needs to stop fumbling the damn ball after GREAT runs. But since Hop’s return, he has 6 touchdowns, 2 picks, and a passer rating over 100. We‘re just NOT a good football team.

Exactly what you said, nailed it.

 

[Chopper0080]

This team has major issues, and to even think Murray is the main culprit is ridiculous. We have penalties galore (12 last game), we have absolute trash in the trenches on BOTH sides of the ball, we have zero running game (Murray is our leading rusher for the season), and our coaching cannot teach even fundamental situational complementary football. Look around the NFL right now. Offenses are mostly struggling right now. Allen may have a serious elbow (nerve issue) injury. In the last 7 quarters, he has 4 picks & zero touchdowns. Rodgers looks like he’s never played before, and his last game was against the statistically worst D in the NFL. Herbert is missing key players & looked very pedestrian against the worst pass D in the NFL. Even Mahomes had 8 straight series against TN without producing a point. But, his D kept him in the game against an offense with no ability to throw the ball. The NFL won’t tolerate this, so don’t be surprised if the rules get tweaked again in the offseason to further favor the O. Eventually, defenses will be forced to wear blindfolders. Can Murray play better? Absolutely. He definitely needs to stop fumbling the damn ball after GREAT runs. But since Hop’s return, he has 6 touchdowns, 2 picks, and a passer rating over 100. We‘re just NOT a good football team.

Just because of the nature of the league and the rules, QB has the most impact on teams success or failure. In our case, on the field, pre-snap penalties/unforced errors has to be issue 1 (on Kliff and the players jointly) and Kyler's play has to be issue 2. His lack of personal development is leading him to struggle. A lot of that is on him. Even in year 4 he doesn't consistently throw players open and struggles to understand where to attack defenses he is facing. This thread highlights those struggles.

Yes, our backup OG is a problem but that like akin to complaining about the backup QB. When you get to backups the goal is to take advantage of the 70% of plays they get right and not make the huge mistake in the 30% where they get them wrong.

 

[MaoTosiFanClub]

lol, you still going on about that huge window as if it was a difficult throw or is there something else?

Here's Kyler throwing that exact same pass to the sidelines. It's the first play in this highlight reel. I suggest you all watch it so you can remember what a good QB looks like.

Y'all starting to sound like battered wives "It's not his fault. He can't help it"

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Look where the safety is in the screenshot on Sunday vs where safety is when Hop catches the ball vs Tennessee. Not even close.

Dude it's a 30 yard throw. 35 max.

Per your screenshot it's 30-35 yards down the field plus another 15-20 yards across (NFL field around 50 yards wide), look at the big numbers on the field for math help.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Your definition of wide-open is ridiculous. And yes they are trash playcalling because the place I’m not changed their poorly designed poorly executed by the entire team that goes to coaching.

In the lack of talent goes to the general manager.

Has Kyler regressed I’m not gonna say he hasn’t.

But to lay all the blame like you are on him on Kyler and pretend that Cliff is calling a great game shows a fundamental lack of understanding

His definition of open IS NOT ridiculous. This is what open looks like in the NFL. Murray can and should make those throws. He's just too fricking scared right now, that's his biggest issue. He has no confidence in making throws that he can and should regularly make.

This isn't college football where you routinely see receivers open by 10 yards.

 

[Dback Jon]

Solid tweet. So easy to criticize every player, every play, the HC, and the GM.

Yet - very few people know what they are talking about.

It would be interesting for cameras to follow people at their day job and critique every meeting, decision, conversation, etc.

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If someone wants to pay me $250 million, they can do that...

 

[Krangodnzr]

Yeah thats the whole problem. The ball should be in the air.

I'm starting to understand the "Kliff's scheme never gets people open" guys. Apparently you all think open means a 10 yard window.

It's almost like they never watch QBs like Stafford make 10 throws like that every game...

 

[HomerPimpson]

Yeah but Hop has the leverage before going into his break. If Kyler sees the 1:1 he can throw Hop open.

I mentioned this in the game thread week before last. I saw this happen twice just watching on TV, where Hopkins was stacking his defender like a pro, all Kyler has to do is throw to the open part of the field and it's an easy completion. This play looks covered on tape but with leverage it's an easy completion. I have to believe when they wanted Kyler to study they didn't mean the playbook, they mean (I believe) throwing guys open, reading leverages, hots, etc, stuff he should already know. He clearly doesn't or he would make some of these passes IMO.

That being said a new QB doesn't fix this dumpster fire.

 

[BritCard]

I feel like your assertion that Kyler isn't anticipating players breaking open and is waiting to see it which closes the window on some easy reads and throws is accurate. From my experience that comes from a lack of understanding what defenses are trying to do and how you need to attack those.

Where my criticism comes up that I don't believe Kyler knows how to pre-snap read, post-snap confirm, and then understand how to attack what he sees. Some of that is coaching but in my experience that is where professional players separate themselves though independent study.

I think everyone defending Kyler really needs to watch this.

And before anyone says it the Miami O line is not good.

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[BritCard]

Look where the safety is in the screenshot on Sunday vs where safety is when Hop catches the ball vs Tennessee. Not even close.

Per your screenshot it's 30-35 yards down the field plus another 15-20 yards across (NFL field around 50 yards wide), look at the big numbers on the field for math help.

No. The ball should already be out and he should be catching it around 35 yards down field. 40 tops.

 

[PACardsFan]

I mentioned this in the game thread week before last. I saw this happen twice just watching on TV, where Hopkins was stacking his defender like a pro, all Kyler has to do is throw to the open part of the field and it's an easy completion. This play looks covered on tape but with leverage it's an easy completion. I have to believe when they wanted Kyler to study they didn't mean the playbook, they mean (I believe) throwing guys open, reading leverages, hots, etc, stuff he should already know. He clearly doesn't or he would make some of these passes IMO.

That being said a new QB doesn't fix this dumpster fire.

Murray has been at the top of or close to it the last two years in tight window pass completion %. To think he's suddenly forgotten how to do that is a fallacy. When you're on your 3rd center, and backups across the guard position, and they CONSTANTLY are making mistakes, it makes it very difficult for ANY QB to function at their peak. Have you watched the great QB's of the NFL of late. Most of them are struggling for the same reasons. Allen completed 52% of his passes last week & has 4 picks and 0 tds in the last 6 quarters. Mahomes went 8 straight series without generating a point, Herbert has looked pedestrian at best, Rodgers is playing like a rookie, and Burrow may set a record for being sacked this year. We are a poor football team, and would be significantly worse without Murray.

 

[BritCard]

Murray has been at the top of or close to it the last two years in tight window pass completion %. To think he's suddenly forgotten how to do that is a fallacy. When you're on your 3rd center, and backups across the guard position, and they CONSTANTLY are making mistakes, it makes it very difficult for ANY QB to function at their peak. Have you watched the great QB's of the NFL of late. Most of them are struggling for the same reasons. Allen completed 52% of his passes last week & has 4 picks and 0 tds in the last 6 quarters. Mahomes went 8 straight series without generating a point, Herbert has looked pedestrian at best, Rodgers is playing like a rookie, and Burrow may set a record for being sacked this year. We are a poor football team, and would be significantly worse without Murray.

I've shown a load of plays here where Kyler is clean.

As @Chopper0080 said, when you're on backup interior linemen you have to make the most of the 70% of plays they get right.

 

[GoldGloveschmidt]

It's almost like they never watch QBs like Stafford make 10 throws like that every game...

Stafford sucks and you could pick out a handful of plays for him or any other quarterback in the league and point to places the ball hypothetically could have gone.

If only we had Matt Stafford though, throwing into those tight windows, with his 245 pass yards per game, 8TDs, 8 INTS, and *gasp* THREE FUMBLES LOST. Then we'd really be winning games.