falling off the Bryant bandwagon

[hcsilla]

actually, I would say that the last two NBA finals were more lopsided.

Ok, they may have been more onesided because didn't have an answer to Duncan and Shaq.

But now Detroit completely destroyed the Lakers in the offense as a TEAM what may be more frustrating, IMO. Especially that LAL did have a zero chance after Game 1 and they had to see that probably.

 

[Mainstreet]

Posted by Joe Mama

If the Phoenix Suns are going to overpay for a perimeter player I think I would prefer that it is Ginobili. Would San Antonio match an offer that started at $6 million?

It would seem to me Ginobili would be a good acquisition for the Suns and San Antonio a good trading partner (as we owe them a future first round pick). Would it seem reasonable we trade the 7th pick to them for like a sign and trade for Ginobili and they give the Suns their first round pick back that was traded for Barbosa or their first round pick this year.

I'm not sure of the mechanics of such a trade but it would give the Suns a quality player and possibly a draft pick as well. Perhaps other players would have to be involved, but the 7th pick might be attractive to San Antonio.

 

[George O'Brien]

Posted by Joe Mama

It would seem to me Ginobili would be a good acquisition for the Suns and San Antonio a good trading partner (as we owe them a future first round pick). Would it seem reasonable we trade the 7th pick to them for like a sign and trade for Ginobili and they give the Suns their first round pick back that was traded for Barbosa or their first round pick this year.

I'm not sure of the mechanics of such a trade but it would give the Suns a quality player and possibly a draft pick as well. Perhaps other players would have to be involved, but the 7th pick might be attractive to San Antonio.

Violates the first rule of trading - never give up a player within your own conference.

Back to Kobe,

I am not as concerned about his on the court performance. He faced a great defense and had little help on the outside.

My concern is his temperment. During the finals he was quoted as saying that he WOULD talke to the Knicks this summer. It is hard to imagine MJ talking about his contract negotiations during the finals.

I can live with a self obsessed superstar (hey, Sir Charles does come to mind), because I never doubted that Charles was totally obsessed with winning. I just don't get that from Kobe. He seems terribly immature for a guy who has been in the league so long, but he has become a poster child for the destructive effects of fame.

In terms of talent, there is no outside guy that is close to Kobe. He really is that good. But I wonder if talent is enough if it is not harnessed.

The new defensive rules may be bringing to an end the age when a single player can competely dominate without an exceptional supporting cast. All of the top scorer types have watched their shooting percentages go down this season:

Kobe - 43.8%
McGrady - 41.7%
Pierce - 40.2%
Allen - 44%
Iverson - 42.5%
Sprewell - 37.8%
Stackhouse - 39.9%

I'm not sure what it means, but considering the price of a player like Kobe it is worth pondering.

 

[capologist]

It's very disturbing that he could be shut down so completely by, more or less, a single defender. Now who knows, maybe Tayshaun Prince is one of the elite defenders of all time. But I kind of doubt it. Would Prince have shut down Jordan? No. Would a single defender have been able to shut down "lesser" megastars in their prime, such as Bird or Malone or even Barkley? No.

Sometimes, even a great scorer will encounter a bad matchup. IIRC, Elden Campbell effectively shut down Charles Barkley in ’93, very nearly bringing about what would have been the first-ever defeat of a #1 seed by a #8 seed.

This isn’t the first time Kobe has encountered this, either. Remember Ruben “Kobe Stopper” Patterson? For a couple of years or so, he shut down Kobe consistently. That didn’t mean that suddenly every decent SG defender in the league was able to do the same. And Kobe did eventually solve the Patterson puzzle.

 

[cly2tw]

It was mentioned in Chad Ford's that the Lakers may have the dilemma that with Kobe gone in FA, they'd have only Shaq with a bunch of nonames without cap to play with. It might be in their interest to do a trade with the Suns. Assume White + Cleveland's went to Bobcats, we do

Kobe + George for Marion + Zarko.

Lakers:

They'd have a trade exception of 6 mil. With this, they can lure Brent Barry or other FA SG to them. Payton and Malone will stay. Starting

Shaq/Malone/Marion/FA(BB)/Payton

bench: Medv/Zarko/Walton/Rush/Fisher/picks

They will be a good contender if Malone stays healthy. And there is still the MLE available. If they don't win much, they could rebuild in two years after Shaq's is up. They have only one large contract in Marion. Without the trade, they'd be left with the bad contract of George's but without the chance of winning the previous two years.

Suns:

With this trade, we will have 6-8 mil cap space left. Sign a center like Camby or whoever, sign Dice to min., draft Gordon or Iggy. We have

Camby/Amare/JJ/Kobe/Gordon

bench: Lampe/Dice/Jake/George/CJ/Barbosa/Eisley

Give this group two years to gel and learn playing defense, we can talk about championships.

 

[The Commish]

Not a bad idea, I sure as hell like it better than signing Kobe outright. I'm sure LA would too. It would seem to me though that the Lakers would demand more than just Marion/Zarko, but it might serve in their best interests to think about this trade.

 

[pokerface]

Gee..it went from Marion isnt worth the max to now Kobe isnt worth the max either. Seems like the same people involved....what a coincidence.


I'm not even going to pretend I wasted time to read this insane thread. If one series turned you off so much that you would say to Kobes face "Go away..Suns dont want to pay you max"...then I dont know what to say except enjoy Nash because thats what you might get instead. Then you can really cry the blues....or maybe you'd cheer because you got such a smoking deal paying Nash 8-10 mill a season...GOODY! Yeah, a real smoking deal until the fourth quarter when you need "someone" to take that important shot to get you to the next level....then you relish the millions saved instead of a won game.

 

[hcsilla]

The price is about the same. Slightly less hypothetically, how about Pierce and Juwan Howard?

I would take Bryant over Pierce and Howard anytime.

 

[cly2tw]

Not a bad idea, I sure as hell like it better than signing Kobe outright. I'm sure LA would too. It would seem to me though that the Lakers would demand more than just Marion/Zarko, but it might serve in their best interests to think about this trade.

Well, by shipping George's along the way, the Lakers might be interested. If needed, we could add the following part to the trade: #7 pick + CJ for Rush. Rush has potential to be a NBA player and the Suns get a bit more cap room to play with.

 

[scotsman13]

Well, by shipping George's along the way, the Lakers might be interested. If needed, we could add the following part to the trade: #7 pick + CJ for Rush. Rush has potential to be a NBA player and the Suns get a bit more cap room to play with.

heck why dont we give away amare for a second round pick that we dont want to sign. somewhere along the line things have gotten really twisted on this board. that anyone would think that it would be in the best interest of this team to give away a lottery pick and a player who makes about 1 million for another player who doesnt bring anything else to the team is just total out of this world.

 

[Joe Mama]

I'll let sunsfn post the entire Insider article, but Chad Ford is talking about possible trades for Tracy McGrady today. He says that the Phoenix Suns are offering Shawn Marion, Casey Jacobsen, and the #7. He says that the Magic are holding out for JJ instead of Casey Jacobsen. Of the other deals on the table the only one that looks better to me for the Magic is the possible Indiana deals. There are a few other deals that look good, but I doubt Tracy McGrady would go to those teams, especially after they ravaged their roster to get him.

If Indiana offered Ron Artest and Al Harrington and maybe another player I think that would be the best deal for the Orlando Magic. Both of those Indiana players have reasonable contracts. If Harrington gets starter minutes in the Eastern conference he might be an all-star next year. He is a very good player.

Joe Mama

 

[elindholm]

Gee..it went from Marion isnt worth the max to now Kobe isnt worth the max either. Seems like the same people involved....what a coincidence.

I'm not even going to pretend I wasted time to read this insane thread.

You're right, you didn't read it. Hard to see how you can criticize when you won't even take the time to follow the argument.

You do know that there are lots of different max contract levels, right? It's a misnomer to talk about "the max" like it's one number. I'd be thrilled to pay Bryant the money that Marion is making, but that's not the question.

Ideas different from yours might not seem so preposterous if you took any time to understand them. But I guess you already have all the answers, so there's no point in gaining new information.

 

[elindholm]

He says that the Phoenix Suns are offering Shawn Marion, Casey Jacobsen, and the #7.

McGrady's back scares me, but I would do that deal in a heartbeat.

Edit: Ford says that Vujanic would also be included.

 

[Chaplin]

what exactly in making him appear stoppable causes you to think he isn't worth pursuing, if you admit that he's the best wing player in the game?

The price. For the amount of money Bryant would cost, you could have a "normal max" player plus someone at the MLE. I used to think that was fine -- that Bryant was so far above nearly everyone else in the league that he was worth, in effect, as much as a borderline All-Star and a solid role player.

But now I don't see it. Hypothetically, which would help the Suns more: Bryant by himself, or Hamilton plus "a healthy" Camby? The price is about the same. Slightly less hypothetically, how about Pierce and Juwan Howard?

It has been pointed out many times that spending all of the cap space on Bryant would leave the Suns in terrible shape at center, without any options beyond veteran minimums. Again, I used to think that he would be worth it anyway. Now I don't -- at least, I don't think I do.

Now you're just being unrealistic. There is nobody in today's NBA that is going to make an impact that Kobe Bryant would for a bargain price. That just isn't going to happen.

If you want to harbor unreasonable expectations about signing a superstar at a bargain price, then you're watching the wrong league.

 

[elindholm]

I'm not talking about a bargain. It's just a question of whether you want two players instead of one. If the Suns could sign Bryant and use their MLE, that would be fine. But they can't, and that does make a difference.

 

[Chaplin]

I'm not talking about a bargain. It's just a question of whether you want two players instead of one. If the Suns could sign Bryant and use their MLE, that would be fine. But they can't, and that does make a difference.

That doesn't take away the fact that Kobe Bryant would be worth it, signed at any price.

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

I'm not talking about a bargain. It's just a question of whether you want two players instead of one. If the Suns could sign Bryant and use their MLE, that would be fine. But they can't, and that does make a difference.

Not this year.....

However I dont think this team will be contending next year with Bryant (well maybe). IMO it would be better to add Bryant, let the team learn how to play together for next season and the following summer use the MLE to pick up one of the last pieces. Adding to many major players in one season (without a complete overhaul) isn't always the best approach.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

All right. Name a better wing player in the NBA than Kobe Bryant.

There isn't one, but that's not the point. Jason Kidd is the league's best point guard, and he can't lead a team to a title. Once O'Neal retires, the league's best center -- whoever it is -- most likely won't be good enough to lead his team to a title. If the best wing player in the league isn't good enough either, don't invest your entire future in him.

investing our entire future in kobe presumes he'd be all we have. i think we'd be investing our future in kobe/amare/jj/marion/etc. which is a DAMN good investment.

i understand the lasting picture in your head is of kobe's last performance in the finals, but my god man, look at the whole of his work! the lakers wouldn't even have sniffed the finals w/o him. losing your favor for him based on the finals is shortsighted.

 

[George O'Brien]

I remain skeptical that Kobe will end up on the Suns, independent of whether he is worth the price or if he is coachable.

1. Jerrry Buss will do everything in his power to keep Kobe.
2. The Colangelos are unlikely to sign him BEFORE the trial is over, which is late August at the earliest.
3. Kobe does have other options.

Chaplin insists that Kobe will never be a Clipper, but part of that was due to their difficulty in unloading enough contracts to make a bid. One of the latest rumors is that the Clips are looking to do a deal with Atlanta which would involved sending the #2 pick while unloading some contracts.

"An InsideHoops.com source tells editor Jeff Lenchiner that the Los Angeles Clippers think they have a real shot at signing Kobe Bryant this summer. Here is the info InsideHoops.com has received: The Clippers are actively trying to trade their second pick in the NBA draft. The Atlanta Hawks are very interested, as they want to draft Dwight Howard. The Clippers want to clear as much salary away as possible in an effort to sign Kobe, so if they do make a deal involving draft picks, they want at least "two bad contracts" traded away from their roster. The Hawks would give draft picks #6 and #17, and they'd get at least two Clippers players that the Clippers are happy to give up. The two teams have tons of salary cap space, so a deal of this sort is possible to work out. It's not known what other players would be involved. Kobe Bryant and his wife want to stay in Los Angeles, and Kobe is definitely open to the idea of being a Clipper." InsideHoops.com

I'm not sure the numbers work, but it goes along with other stories that Kobe's wife doesn't want to leave LA.

BTW, California is a community property state, so he really does have to listen to her.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I never doubted that Charles was totally obsessed with winning.

this is just a silly statement. do you realize how often charles showed up to training camp outta shape? do you know how many nights charles would be out 'til the wee hours a night or two before games? while on the court, yeah he wanted to win at all costs, but off the court he often couldn't be bothered with that "at all costs" thing. i think kobe has more of a killer instinct than charles ever did. and i loved charles.

 

[George O'Brien]

this is just a silly statement. do you realize how often charles showed up to training camp outta shape? do you know how many nights charles would be out 'til the wee hours a night or two before games? while on the court, yeah he wanted to win at all costs, but off the court he often couldn't be bothered with that "at all costs" thing. i think kobe has more of a killer instinct than charles ever did. and i loved charles.

But Charles never let personal stuff interfere with his on court performance like the Shaq and Kobe rivalry has.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I would take Bryant over Pierce and Howard anytime.

w/o blinking.

 

[elindholm]

But Charles never let personal stuff interfere with his on court performance like the Shaq and Kobe rivalry has.

That's not true either. Barkley didn't like Kevin Johnson, and there were lots of reports of power struggles between them that Westphal was unable to defuse successfully, especially in the 1995 playoffs.

I remain skeptical about Bryant, but there's no doubt in my mind that he has more heart than Barkley did.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

But Charles never let personal stuff interfere with his on court performance like the Shaq and Kobe rivalry has.



That's not true either. Barkley didn't like Kevin Johnson, and there were lots of reports of power struggles between them that Westphal was unable to defuse successfully, especially in the 1995 playoffs.

I remain skeptical about Bryant, but there's no doubt in my mind that he has more heart than Barkley did.

e's right. you can love your own as much as you want, but don't let it blind you. charles wanted to win, but charles was all about doing it charles' way.

 

[scudney]

2. The Colangelos are unlikely to sign him BEFORE the trial is over, which is late August at the earliest.

I thought the trial wasn't even supposed to start until september?