For Those of You Who Continue to Apologize for Sarver

[AzStevenCal]

Of course. Everything good with the Suns over the years is because of the Colangelo's, Steve Kerr and David Griffin. Everything bad is because of Robert Sarver. Must have sucked to be him in the mid-80s.

I know this is sarcasm. Still, I pretty much think Colangelo walked on water as an owner. He made mistakes but you always knew that he was trying to build a team the city could be proud of. He also was held in high regard by the rest of the league and, in this regard, unfortunately, Sarver is pretty much the anti-Colangelo. I don't think Sarver is as bad as he's being made out to be here but I'd love to see him sell the team to someone like JC.

Steve

 

[AzStevenCal]

I didn't have a problem with declining to sign JJ to an extension for $50 million, but in hindsight it was obviously a major error. Once they made that error I was definitely not for matching the huge contract from Atlanta. I actually thought they did a fantastic job in that sign and trade and ended up a better team that following season than if they had kept JJ. If it were not for the Phoenix Suns terrible luck (Atlanta getting into the lottery that year) we would have had Noah out of that deal as well. Of course it was easy for the Colangelos to urge RS to sign JJ. It wasn't their money they were spending anymore. Remember that these guys had done everything possible to avoid the luxury tax and had vowed never to pay it. They had just signed Steve Nash and Clinton Richardson to big contracts and were asking him to spend another $50 million on a guy who was pretty inconsistent. I've always thought the mistake was signing Richardson.

All that said, I don't know what Sarver is thinking. I can defend him for some things, but there's no doubt he's a pretty picture. The Bill Simmons excerpt is perfect. If you are worried about the bottom line as much as RS is you should not buy a basketball team. I would not blame him one bit for letting Amare Stoudemire go, but asking this staff to all take pay cuts this summer is just bad. Not signing Alvin gentry to an extension is bad.

Poker, I'm not sure what you are defending at this point.

Joe

+1

 

[ASUCHRIS]

Poker, I'm not sure what you are defending at this point.

Methinks $arver has found the wonder that is internet message boards...

 

[Sunburn]

Of course. Everything good with the Suns over the years is because of the Colangelo's, Steve Kerr and David Griffin. Everything bad is because of Robert Sarver. Must have sucked to be him in the mid-80s.

Sarcasm but way too highly over-generalized. I think most importantly, the Colangelo's did what they thought was best for the team and the city. This is why they are so beloved. I think Kerr and Griffen were trying to do their best for the team's sake, perhaps in spite of Sarver (see KT trade). They may have made mistakes, but they had the team's best interest in mind. Sarver does not come across as that being his primary concern, but rather his wallet. There is evidence to back this up and this is why he is often seen as the enemy.

 

[Mainstreet]

I tend to agree with you on the current situation, but the JJ thing is just getting out of hand with the false information you are believing.

True, there was a 5 million disagreement at the start of negotiations, but once Atlanta ponied up with their huge contract, Sarver gave in and told JJ that he would match it for him to stay in Phoenix. JJ himself told Sarver he didn't want to stay in Phoenix anymore.

The thing to note (to put it in perspective), the negotiations occured with JJ over two seasons. The year he negotiated for an extension and the year he was a RFA. JJ was willing to sign an extension if Sarver would have given him 55M. When JJ became a RFA, he clearly wanted out.

 

[Sunburn]

Lol. AZsteven, I think we're on the same page.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Methinks $arver has found the wonder that is internet message boards...

I know you're kidding but trust me, Sarver is not this thin-skinned. You don't start a bank at 23 and do the things he's done if you're not supremely self-confident. Other than how it might damage his bottom line, I doubt he could care less what others think of him.

Steve

 

[ASUCHRIS]

I doubt he could care less what others think of him.

Sad but true...If he continues with the status quo attitude, I think he'll be dealing with a pretty unhappy fan base.

 

[pokerface]

The thing to note (to put it in perspective), the negotiations occured with JJ over two seasons. The year he negotiated for an extension and the year he was a RFA. JJ was willing to sign an extension if Sarver would have given him 55M. When JJ became a RFA, he clearly wanted out.

Yeah and Sarver is 100% to blame for JJ wanting out. JJ and his weakminded ways had nothing to do with it...correct?

 

[Mainstreet]

Yeah and Sarver really screwed the team over

I guess the final cards will play out this offseason or perhaps until the February trading deadline. Then we will find out the Suns future. The Suns have been rebuilding on the run quite nicely. Now without Kerr and Griffin, Sarver does not have any wiggle room. Sarver needs someone with NBA smarts in the GM chair.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Sad but true...If he continues with the status quo attitude, I think he'll be dealing with a pretty unhappy fan base.

I think there's some over-reaction here but he's already created a pretty unhappy fan base. It's possible that his moves will end up putting this franchise in a great position following the almost inevitable lockout/strike but he's going to take some lumps in the meantime.

Steve

 

[TBaslim]

Couple of thoughts:

- Rodney Rogers - blast from the past. He was a fun guy to watch play. Anyone know how he is doing after the paralysis accident a few years back?

- JC vs Sarver and Reputation vs Results. I will always admire JC and the legacy he built in Phx, regardless of title/no title.

He is the epitome of the idea that "It's as much about how you do business as it is about how well you do in business."

JC treated people right (sometimes to a fault). It was clearly important to him. When interviewed in depth, he often spoke of the right way to do things and treat people, and how he learned it as a young kid in the Italian neighborhoods in Chicago. It was in his core.

Folks are right that Sarver on paper has had good results as an owner so far. Regardless of the seemingly endless turmoil, he has had fun, popular, profitable teams with good records. But his reputation sucks and it appears to stem from how he treats people. And that is damn hard to change once it sticks.

At this point, Sarver could win a title and still be called cheap and arrogant. JC basically can do no wrong in the Valley without ever winning it all in the NBA.

- How much of the team does Sarver own? I find it interesting that people refer to him as the owner, and he sure acts like it, but does he even own a majority? If not, I wonder what his fellow team owners think of his reputation and actions over the last few years?

- So the publicly known executive basketball brain trust that built the Nash/Amare Suns is gone except for Sarver and Alvin (BC, DA, Kerr, Griff). I really wonder about the next levels down. The Suns have really thrived by making smart draft decisions (historically, not every one is a winner) and good trades. That type of long term success takes good people at multiple levels of the organization.

I really want to know if that next level of folks is heading for the door. Then I am really, really worried. If the team takes a dive due to the new CBA and not wanting to spend until after 2012, then we need to draft well. Very well. The next decade will depend on it.

We were able to draft well back in the late 80's/early 90's after the drug scandal (Thunder Dan, Hornacek, finding KJ, Ced, Miller, Dumas, etc - later Nash). We were able to do it back in the late 90's/early 00's after the 'malaise' post-Barkley (Shawn, Amare, finding JJ, Barbs, etc). It's unclear in the mid-00's since we sold all the damn draft picks (Rondo, I know). And we seemed to be able to draft well again in the late 00's (Lopez, Goran, maybe Clark). The question is can we keep up the recent quality drafting trend over the next few years, or are the basketball minds behind that success leaving? If they leave, we are screwed in a bad way.

 

[Sunburn]

Sarver has to OK all moves.

Why wouldn't he ok them? They were made per Sarver's guidelines. He's not going to deny moves just to deny them, they were in his interest. He told the GM what he could work with and it was the GM's job to go out and make the deals. That's the whole point of the GM employment position. It was in his interest to go with the moves his GM had come up with. They were "Ok'd" because they were cheap or brought some interest to the bottomline, but he had nothing to do with working the deals out themselves. That was Kerr's job. Like SirStefan said, what Kerr was able to do for cheap is amazing and he deserves much better than what he got.

 

[Mainstreet]

Yeah and Sarver is 100% to blame for JJ wanting out. JJ and his weakminded ways had nothing to do with it...correct?

You still don't understand what I'm saying. What JJ wanted had nothing to do with the matter if JJ was extended instead of becoming a RFA. Now maybe JJ would have become the squeaky wheel but that is another matter. The Suns likely would have moved Marion if such became the case the following season because JJ was the superior player.

 

[SunsTzu]

Methinks $arver has found the wonder that is internet message boards...

Funny you say that. After this post I noticed his join date.

 

[TBaslim]

Funny you say that. After this post I noticed his join date.

Heck, if Pokerface is Sarver....read what I wrote about JC, man! Your reputation matters, especially in world like the NBA. Start being smarter about how you try to manage the finances for the team.

Penny-wise and pound-foolish will get you nowhere.

 

[pokerface]

Why wouldn't he ok them? They were made per Sarver's guidelines. He's not going to deny moves just to deny them, they were in his interest. He told the GM what he could work with and it was the GM's job to go out and make the deals. That's the whole point of the GM employment position. It was in his interest to go with the moves his GM had come up with. They were "Ok'd" because they were cheap or brought some interest to the bottomline, but he had nothing to do with working the deals out themselves. That was Kerr's job. Like SirStefan said, what Kerr was able to do for cheap is amazing and he deserves much better than what he got.

Screw Kerr. If this was a year ago all of you would have had his head on a platter. A year later he's up for sainthood. He recovered as a GM but his time here wasn't stellar by any stretch.

Kerr nor Sarver have come out complaining so who are we to complain for Kerr. We dont know what he was paid...we dont know what his new salary would have been. Some of you are crying for Kerr when you dont know hardly any details.

 

[TBaslim]

I'm not crying for Kerr at all. I'm worried what his departure, and more specifically, the circumstances around his departure, say about the future of my favorite sports team.

 

[Sunburn]

Screw Kerr. If this was a year ago all of you would have had his head on a platter. A year later he's up for sainthood. He recovered as a GM but his time here wasn't stellar by any stretch.

Kerr nor Sarver have come out complaining so who are we to complain for Kerr. We dont know what he was paid...we dont know what his new salary would have been. Some of you are crying for Kerr when you dont know hardly any details.

You're changing the issue again. I don't know why you keep doing that other than maybe to dilute a person's point that is coming out ahead of your own. The point was Kerr and Gentry were responsible for the product on the floor and not Sarver. We KNOW that Sarver is haggling and lowballing his people on their contracts again even after all of the success he has received due to these people this year. These are the reports now and he's done it in the past. This is nothing new. And you're right, Kerr has not come out complaining. He's handled the situation with a decided amount of class and I respect that. He also knows that what he has achieved this year and the professional manner with which he is carrying himself will set him up for rewards later, if not by Sarver now.

 

[Cheesebeef]

That's not the issue. The issue is this constant blame game that is ridiculous. I wouldn't mind if JC was still here owning the team, of course. But they have been built up as saints on this board since the sale--and now we see the exact same thing happening with Kerr and Griffin.

I don't think Kerr is being painted as a saint. People have pretty much overwhelmingly said he really struggled to begin with but got better over time and it's not that now people are just pissed because they think he's gotten a raw deal, like a lot of people have from Sarver over the years. This isn't a Kerr-Griffin issue... it's a "how Sarver treats/rewards people" and this dealing with Kerr didn't happen in a vaccuum.

JC has and will always be a saint in my eyes. I make no bones about that. The guy wanted to win and would spend to a fault to make it happen... also treated people incredibly well, to a fault (even gave Manning his contract AFTER he tore his ACL). But I'd rather have that guy any day of the week... a guy with character/class and the want to win, over a guy like Sarver.

 

[SunsTzu]

This isn't a Kerr-Griffin issue... it's a "how Sarver treats/rewards people" and this dealing with Kerr didn't happen in a vaccuum.

Exactly I'm not all that upset that Kerr/Griffin left but the manner in which they left(especially Griffin who had been with the team so long and had turned down promotions with other teams).

What type of direction can a team have if it's changing it's GM and head coach an average of every 2 years(and in the GMs case replacing them with people who had no front office experience).

 

[mojorizen7]

I never thought i'd utter these words but thank goodness we only have two 2nd rd draft picks in this years NBA draft,making it far from a critical event for the franchise.

Yeah, Kerr will stay on long enough to oversee it but the timing of this couldn't be better in that sense IMO. Imagine if we had a high lotto pick and Kerr was in charge of basically pulling a name out of a hat on draft day,then waving goodbye immediately after that.....

Kerr: "Here ya go guys, hope this kid works out for ya....peace out!"

 

[SunsTzu]

That's all well and fine as far as the draft is concerned but Kerr's last day is the day before the start of the biggest FA period in the history of the NBA and one of the teams players is a big part of that.

 

[mojorizen7]

That's all well and fine as far as the draft is concerned but Kerr's last day is the day before the start of the biggest FA period in the history of the NBA and one of the teams players is a big part of that.

This is definately true concerning Amare, but do we really think that this team is/was prepared to make a big splash in the FA market? I don't.

 

[SunsTzu]

This is definately true concerning Amare, but do we really think that this team is/was prepared to make a big splash in the FA market? I don't.

Probably which likely played a part in Kerr's departure. The message board "insiders" have indicated Sarver won't even pursue a possible S&T with Amare.