For Those of You Who Continue to Apologize for Sarver

[pokerface]

Had he signed a 6 year 50mil extension he wanted he wouldn't have been needed to carry a team. He'd have been a 3rd option on a great contract.

Had JJ been more CONSISTANT the year they started negoiations then Sarver wouldnt have tried to short change him. JJ waited until his final year to show what he can do.

If JJ was such a sure deal slam dunk then why did the Celtics give up on him so early. They saw things in him they didnt like. Granted he was a rookie but they didnt see the potential either.

 

[SunsTzu]

If JJ was such a sure deal slam dunk then why did the Celtics give up on him so early. They saw things in him they didnt like. Granted he was a rookie but they didnt see the potential either.

The Celtics gave up on him because they wanted to keep Kendrick Brown, that should tell you about their front office's ability to gauge talent at that time.

 

[pokerface]

I could care less about JJ. The Suns went to the WCF without him while JJ was still sulking and somewhat stinking (playoff FG% .387) in Atlanta. We dont need that headcase. Sarver played it how he saw it and should have no regrets.

 

[Cheesebeef]

What are we supposed to believe....JJ was 100% right and Sarver was 100% wrong.

Doesn't have anything to do with JJ being a 100% right. Sarver could have gotten him at the perfect price and didn't pony up, even though all basketball people told him he should have. The issue ends there for me. With JJ, Amare and Nash, I believe this team would have been unstoppable.

It took two to tango in that dance. Sarver should have done the deal for 55 mill...but then again JJ was a fool to think he could be the man on the Hawks and carry a team.

maybe, but a player goes to where he's wanted
JJ was a petty weakminded idiot. The clown even came out and said he didnt care if fans showed up for games or not.

This is the goof you're crying over now??

jeez... now we're gonna start insulting people, telling them they're crying and ****? seems like the tell-tale sign that your argument is over and done. makes sense considering how weak of an argument it is.

 

[Sunburn]

What are we supposed to believe....JJ was 100% right and Sarver was 100% wrong. It took two to tango in that dance. Sarver should have done the deal for 55 mill...but then again JJ was a fool to think he could be the man on the Hawks and carry a team. JJ was a petty weakminded idiot. The clown even came out and said he didnt care if fans showed up for games or not.

This is the goof you're crying over now??

This is a completely different issue and has no bearing on the debate at hand. Your circular reasoning is giving me a headache. Why are you such a Sarver apologist? Your posts have been so ridiculously unreasonable I'm wondering if you might actually be Robert Sarver.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Had JJ been more CONSISTANT the year they started negoiations then Sarver wouldnt have tried to short change him.

JJ was consistent enough for the Colangelos (and a lot of people on the board) to think he was worth the money and he was and would have been a steal. That's how championship teams are built. By knowing when to sign guys and making the right move to get one of those guys at a contract that they probably will over play (see Ginobli).

JJ waited until his final year to show what he can do.

he "waited" until his final year... he was a kid with one year of college underneath his belt who improved every year and then made a HUGE leap between his 2nd and 3rd year. That's when you get the guy signed. BEFORE he puts it all together, because by then he's gonna gauge the payroll. The Colangelos (and many of us) saw this. You and Sarver apparently didn't and still can't admit you were wrong.

If JJ was such a sure deal slam dunk then why did the Celtics give up on him so early. They saw things in him they didnt like. Granted he was a rookie but they didnt see the potential either.

wrong. the Celtics were in "win-now" mode in a bad Eastern Conference and wanted to swing a deal to bolster their bench with veterans, and were able to add Sixth Man of the Year Rodney Rodgers and Tony Delk, both guuys who helped them get within two games of the Finals.

 

[Cheesebeef]

This is a completely different issue and has no bearing on the debate at hand. Your circular reasoning is giving me a headache. Why are you such a Sarver apologist? Your posts have been so ridiculously unreasonable I'm wondering if you might actually be Robert Sarver.

maybe he's bucking to be the GM. He seems pretty qualified: No sense of foresight... check. No experience so he'll come on the cheap... check! Will defends him at every move... check!

Pokerface for GM!

 

[pokerface]

How can Sarver be so wrong when HIS team went to the WCF while JJ crumbled in the playoffs. The dude couldnt even maintain a 40% FG when his team is depending on him. Meanwhile, Sarver brought in guys like Richardson to do what needed to be done.

Sarver was vindicated.

 

[Sunburn]

maybe he's bucking to be the GM. He seems pretty qualified: No sense of foresight... check. No experience so he'll come on the cheap... check! Will defends him at every move... check!

Pokerface for GM!

Lol well played sir.

 

[pokerface]

This is a completely different issue and has no bearing on the debate at hand. Your circular reasoning is giving me a headache. Why are you such a Sarver apologist? Your posts have been so ridiculously unreasonable I'm wondering if you might actually be Robert Sarver.

Why am I supposed to hate on Sarver? Didnt he just put a quality product out on the floor that went to the WCF?

 

[Sunburn]

Why am I supposed to hate on Sarver? Didnt he just put a quality product out on the floor that went to the WCF?

No, he didn't. Kerr and Gentry did. Sarver really had nothing to do with it other than signing the checks. . . reluctantly. And now he refuses to reward the very people that brought his team, and his bank account, success. What a jerk. This is the man you're defending?

 

[SirStefan32]

Why am I supposed to hate on Sarver? Didnt he just put a quality product out on the floor that went to the WCF?

Kerr and Gentry did that, despite Server, not because of him. Dragic, Lopez, Dudley, Richardson, Fry, Amundson- that's six rotation players that Kerr drafted, traded for, or signed for cheap. What Kerr was able to do with financial restraints imposed on him by Sarver is amazing.

 

[pokerface]

No, he didn't. Kerr and Gentry did. Sarver really had nothing to do with it other than signing the checks. . . reluctantly.

Typical. Sarver gets the blame for anything bad but no credit for any of the good. If Sarver gets no credit then he shouldnt get any blame either.

 

[SunsTzu]

If Sarver gets no credit then he shouldnt get any blame either.

He can when he screws over the people that deserved the credit.

 

[pokerface]

Kerr and Gentry did that, despite Server, not because of him. Dragic, Lopez, Dudley, Richardson, Fry, Amundson- that's six rotation players that Kerr drafted, traded for, or signed for cheap. What Kerr was able to do with financial restraints imposed on him by Sarver is amazing.

Sarver has to OK all moves.

 

[AzStevenCal]

wrong. the Celtics were in "win-now" mode in a bad Eastern Conference and wanted to swing a deal to bolster their bench with veterans, and were able to add Sixth Man of the Year Rodney Rodgers and Tony Delk, both guuys who helped them get within two games of the Finals.

Are you sure about this? My recollection was that JJ was highly touted early on and was given every chance to succeed (even started several games) and then all of a sudden he was yanked from the rotation. I remember reading Celtics boards at the time that talked about him dropping into disfavor but I'm no longer sure about the specifics. IIRC, it was similar to what happened with him in college where he'd disappear on the court for long stretches.

I know that most people here (or maybe it was the Rivals board) were thrilled to get rid of Tony Delk. Rodney Rogers was a season and a half removed from his highlight year with us and was having another disappointing year. My point is, I don't think either of them had all that much market value. At the time, it seemed that Boston was just happy to unload Johnson and Palacio more than anything else. I think most of us were more excited by the first round pick than Johnson.

Steve

 

[Chaplin]

Of course. Everything good with the Suns over the years is because of the Colangelo's, Steve Kerr and David Griffin. Everything bad is because of Robert Sarver. Must have sucked to be him in the mid-80s.

 

[Mainstreet]

Kerr and Gentry did that, despite Server, not because of him. Dragic, Lopez, Dudley, Richardson, Fry, Amundson- that's six rotation players that Kerr drafted, traded for, or signed for cheap. What Kerr was able to do with financial restraints imposed on him by Sarver is amazing.

This is true because Kerr was able to do this on the cheap. It is also amazing that Sarver wanted to give Kerr a paycut. The Kerr/ Griffin thing does not play out in my mind. If only one were leaving it would make more sense. Clearly Kerr and Griffin were on the same page as how to build the Suns for the future. Now only Sarver knows what is the plan.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Are you sure about this? My recollection was that JJ was highly touted early on and was given every chance to succeed (even started several games) and then all of a sudden he was yanked from the rotation. I remember reading Celtics boards at the time that talked about him dropping into disfavor but I'm no longer sure about the specifics. IIRC, it was similar to what happened with him in college where he'd disappear on the court for long stretches.

he was your typical 1st year player out of college. up and down on a team that looked like it could make the finals in the East. They needed people they could depend on and made a deal to get depth that ultimately helped them get to the ECF.

I know that most people here (or maybe it was the Rivals board) were thrilled to get rid of Tony Delk. Rodney Rogers was a season and a half removed from his highlight year with us and was having another disappointing year. My point is, I don't think either of them had all that much market value.

they certainly didn't have much market value on a team as bad as ours that year but for a team looking for veteran depth, punch off the bench, they did and Boston put them to good use. It was a rare trade that was a win-win for both teams.

 

[Mainstreet]

Of course. Everything good with the Suns over the years is because of the Colangelo's, Steve Kerr and David Griffin. Everything bad is because of Robert Sarver. Must have sucked to be him in the mid-80s.

I'd stop with the Colangelo's. I would be a happy man if JC or BC were still running the show. They made mistakes but not for the lack of trying. They always had the Suns best interests in mind.

 

[TBaslim]

I tend to agree with you on the current situation, but the JJ thing is just getting out of hand with the false information you are believing.

True, there was a 5 million disagreement at the start of negotiations, but once Atlanta ponied up with their huge contract, Sarver gave in and told JJ that he would match it for him to stay in Phoenix. JJ himself told Sarver he didn't want to stay in Phoenix anymore. People will believe it's because of the early negotiations, but I think it was more about JJ wanting to be "the man" and his relationship with Amare Stoudemire. There was no way JJ was going to be the #1 option on the Phoenix Suns. Even if he was still with the team now, he wouldn't be the #1 option. In Atlanta, he automatically became the #1 guy on that team. That coupled with a big contract was a no-brainer for a selfish pro athlete.

Sarver screwed up by not giving him that extra money to begin with, but hindsight is always 20/20. We should have given it to him based on what happened after that, but at the time, Joe Johnson was terribly inconsistent and was generally considered overpaid.

People also forget the scuttle at the time, which was that JJ was missing home. He was never comfortable in Boston or Phoenix, and was a southern kid at heart. Apparently it was a big deal to play for a team closer to home, in addition to the other reasons.

 

[pokerface]

I'd stop with the Colangelo's. I would be a happy man if JC or BC were still running the show. They made mistakes but not for the lack of trying. They always had the Suns best interests in mind.

Yeah and Sarver really screwed the team over

 

[Sunburn]

Typical. Sarver gets the blame for anything bad but no credit for any of the good. If Sarver gets no credit then he shouldnt get any blame either.

I would give him credit if he did the right thing and rewarded the people who brought his organization success. Right now, he is not doing the right thing. He gets no credit from me at this time. The people responsible for the product put out on the court are the GM and the Head Coach. That is the sole focus behind those two employment positions. That's why when a team is not well put together or is not playing well together, the GM and/or the Coach is the one that gets the axe. That is why when a team is well put together or plays well together, sometimes in spite of an owner *cough cough*, these two positions may receive the Executive or Coach of the year awards. For our team, the GM and Head Coach were Steve Kerr and Alvin Gentry. They get the credit for our WCF run. Robert Sarver's responsibilities are ownership ones such as personnel morale and work environment, so that his employees are happy and continue to help his business run as effectively as possible. These areas are at an all time low. Hence, Sarver, at the moment, has failed dramatically.

 

[Chaplin]

I'd stop with the Colangelo's. I would be a happy man if JC or BC were still running the show. They made mistakes but not for the lack of trying. They always had the Suns best interests in mind.

That's not the issue. The issue is this constant blame game that is ridiculous. I wouldn't mind if JC was still here owning the team, of course. But they have been built up as saints on this board since the sale--and now we see the exact same thing happening with Kerr and Griffin.

 

[Joe Mama]

I didn't have a problem with declining to sign JJ to an extension for $50 million, but in hindsight it was obviously a major error. Once they made that error I was definitely not for matching the huge contract from Atlanta the following summer . I actually thought they did a fantastic job in that sign and trade and ended up a better team that following season than if they had kept JJ. If it were not for the Phoenix Suns terrible luck (Atlanta getting into the lottery a euro or two later) we would have had Noah out of that deal as well. Of course it was easy for the Colangelos to urge RS to sign JJ. It wasn't their money they were spending anymore. Remember that these guys had done everything possible to avoid the luxury tax and had vowed never to pay it. they used draft picks to unload contracts and save money the same way Sarver did. The difference is that he spent a lot more money than they ever did. That summer they were negotiating an extension for JJ they had just signed Steve Nash and Richardson to big contracts and were asking him to spend another $50 million on a guy who was pretty inconsistent. I've always thought the mistake was signing Richardson. one more thing, I may have been wrong about signing JJ to that initial $50 million extension, but I would have taken JJ over Shawn Marion any day back then.

All that said, I don't know what Sarver is thinking. I can defend him for some things, but there's no doubt he's a penney pincher. The Bill Simmons excerpt is perfect. If you are worried about the bottom line as much as RS is you should not buy a basketball team. I would not blame him one bit for letting Amare Stoudemire go. I actually think it's the right move if the only alternative is signing him to a super maximum contract. But asking this staff to all take pay cuts this summer is just bad. Not signing Alvin gentry to an extension is bad.

Poker, I'm not sure what you are defending at this point.

Joe