For Those of You Who Continue to Apologize for Sarver

[Mainstreet]

So for those people that keep saying it, how can Kerr be credited for Alvin Gentry? If anything, Gentry's ascension as head coach could be attributed to Sarver for not wanting to spend big money to get a big-name head coach.

I don't think there is any doubt that Gentry was hired as HC to save money after Porter left. However, Gentry had all the qualifications to be a HC. Now do you want to give Kerr any credit for the Gentry hire after he flubbed the Porter hire... I don't know. BC was the better GM.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I never said that. I'm saying that everyone here saying that Joe Johnson was this star for the Suns are wrong. He wasn't a star and didn't deserve to be paid like one at the time. Atlanta took a chance, and it worked out for them.

Has it worked for Atlanta? They've spent a lot of money and they've accumulated a lot of talent but what do they have to show for it? A lot less success than the Suns have had over that same period and to many people we are nothing but a disappointment.

Steve

 

[Cheesebeef]

You can't be serious. Everyone was complaining about how inconsistent JJ was at the time. That was a huge problem that was talked about ad nauseum on this board.

That was during his first two seasons. By his third season, he had put together a pretty impressive season. At that time, there were definitely people who saw that he was just scratching the surface, especially as a 3rd year player having come out after his freshman year.

Marion was a better player at the time, no question about it.

right, which was why we weren't clamoring for him to get a MAX deal at that point. We wanted him to get the 6 year 50 million dollar deal.

I'll concede that that changed fairly quickly after JJ left.

Sorry, but that changed during the 2004-5 season when JJ became the team's 3rd option and only was magnified when Marion disappeared in the WCF. It was clear at that point that JJ was the 3rd best player on the team. At least it was to me and there were others that shared the same opinion.

 

[Chaplin]

Has it worked for Atlanta? They've spent a lot of money and they've accumulated a lot of talent but what do they have to show for it? A lot less success than the Suns have had over that same period and to many people we are nothing but a disappointment.

Steve

And they will probably lose him this summer. But it can't be denied that as a result of signing Joe Johnson, the Hawk owners have made a lot more money then they were when they were bottom-feeders.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Has it worked for Atlanta? They've spent a lot of money and they've accumulated a lot of talent but what do they have to show for it? A lot less success than the Suns have had over that same period and to many people we are nothing but a disappointment.

Steve

for a franchise as pathetic as the Hawks, the playoffs three straight years and back to back 2nd round appearances is a lot of success. If not for HORRIFIC draft blunders (Acie Law, Shelden Williams... WITH THE 5TH PICK!) that team could have been something special.

 

[Chaplin]

for a franchise as pathetic as the Hawks, the playoffs three straight years and back to back 2nd round appearances is a lot of success. If not for HORRIFIC draft blunders (Acie Law, Shelden Williams... WITH THE 5TH PICK!) that team could have been something special.

Out of all the disagreeing we do, I actually do agree with you here.

 

[Mainstreet]

There were a lot of people on this board that were against JJ and his quest for more money. He was demanding a contract that was well above what he'd been worth in the past. His defense was solid at times but he was often unfocused. He had finished the previous season strongly and that left us with dreams of greatness for the guy but he'd hardly proved himself.

I'm sure there were several people that thought he was worth his demands but there were a lot of us that didn't. I'd have paid what he was asking but I would have considered it a huge gamble that was only worth it because of how close we were to the promised land.

Steve

The problem was that Sarver did not extend JJ the year before he was a RFA. IMO, there was absolutely no doubt that Sarver should have extended JJ when they were only about 5 M apart. I had no doubt that JJ should have been extended although others had the Sarver show me approach. I would have rather kept JJ than Marion.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Out of all the disagreeing we do, I actually do agree with you here.

Shelden Williams!

 

[Chaplin]

The problem was that Sarver did not extend JJ the year before he was a RFA. IMO, there was absolutely no doubt that Sarver should have extended JJ when they were only about 5 M apart. I had no doubt that JJ should have been extended although others had the Sarver show me approach. I would have rather kept JJ than Marion.

I'm sure many people would agree with keeping JJ rather than Marion, who was a great regular season player but awful in the playoffs. However, Marion was on his huge contract, that really made him unmovable. JJ had all the leverage and used it to get that great contract from Atlanta.

 

[Mainstreet]

I'm sure many people would agree with keeping JJ rather than Marion, who was a great regular season player but awful in the playoffs. However, Marion was on his huge contract, that really made him unmovable. JJ had all the leverage and used it to get that great contract from Atlanta.

Back then, I think Marion could have been traded quite easily. His salary had not yet raised to a formidable yearly amount and he was highly thought of by most. Also teams were more willing to spend during that period.

 

[hsandhu]

You can't be serious. Everyone was complaining about how inconsistent JJ was at the time. That was a huge problem that was talked about ad nauseum on this board. Marion was a better player at the time, no question about it. I'll concede that that changed fairly quickly after JJ left.

Absolutely agree there was talk about jj being inconsistent. And ho way in hell did i think he was worth 14 million or would be a future all-star. The fact both of those became true and he was at his best a top 15 player in the league only hurts all the more.

But even not knowing the player he would become, i was willing to take him over marion going forward in a heartbeat. Yes, shawn marion was the better player in 2005 but he had no more upside, i was much more willing to go with someone who could become a real offensive player.

Shawn Marion can't create his own freaking shot! I and others like cheesebeef were arguing this back for 5 years. He is a glorified garbage man, who gets all his scores on broken plays, put backs, ally oops.

That's great, but going forward I would have taken a guy who at least in 2005 had potential to do much more.

The fact shawn marion fell off the face of the earth in 2008 and joe johnson, before this terrible post season, was a top 15 player kind of has proven our side to be right, no?

 

[joshstmarie]

Just wanted to say Im completly doing a 180 on my stance with the whole sarver/kerr fiasco. Not that anyone cares but uhhhh I like to admit when Im wrong. REALLY wrong.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playoffs/2010/columns/story?columni%ADst=adande_ja&page=kerrsuns-100616

Keep telling yourselves that everything will be alright...

" "Kerr wanted a little raise, Sarver wanted him to take a pay cut," one source said. "There's no other way to spin it."

Well, a second source indicated it wasn't as simple as a money grab by Kerr. He wanted more money for the coaching staff, video crew, front-office secretaries -- all the people who helped produce this unexpected trip to the conference finals that yielded more than $10 million in extra revenue from eight home playoff games. Except when Kerr went to bat with Sarver, "The guy just bludgeoned Steve," the second source said.

So Kerr's out. Stoudemire's next.

"Amare's done," according to the source. "He's gone."

" The way things went down this week "took all the joy out of everything that happened this year," the second source said.

And it gave us one fewer reason to look forward to next year. "

What a POS. My favorite team is getting dismantled, after being two games away from the finals.

a lot of y'all can hold out hope and play the optimist. but where there's smoke there's usually fire. and in this case the sparks seem to be flying outta all directions. this is disaster brewing.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I never said that. I'm saying that everyone here saying that Joe Johnson was this star for the Suns are wrong. He wasn't a star and didn't deserve to be paid like one at the time. Atlanta took a chance, and it worked out for them.

it's a professional gm's job to look at what a player can be and gamble accordingly, not look at what they've done and offer a contract based thereon. they're supposed to be able to project talent. in other words, a GOOD gm is somewhat prescient.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Has it worked for Atlanta? They've spent a lot of money and they've accumulated a lot of talent but what do they have to show for it? A lot less success than the Suns have had over that same period and to many people we are nothing but a disappointment.

Steve

but it's all relative. compared to where they were, jj made them a LOT better.

compared to where we are/were, it's possible (i'd argue probable) that jj would have made us better. better even than perhaps this laker team.

 

[pokerface]

That was during his first two seasons. By his third season, he had put together a pretty impressive season. At that time, there were definitely people who saw that he was just scratching the surface, especially as a 3rd year player having come out after his freshman year.

His third season was up and down as Chaplin stated. Everyone knew it including Sarver. JJ shot 43% FG and 30% from the three. It was only his final year he got it together and shot 46% FG and 48% from the three. Dont rewrite history cheesebeef...its not going to fly.

 

[pokerface]

it's a professional gm's job to look at what a player can be and gamble accordingly, not look at what they've done and offer a contract based thereon. they're supposed to be able to project talent. in other words, a GOOD gm is somewhat prescient.

Yeah right...Sarver was supposed to know JJ would shoot a whopping 48% 3p% the following year....pffft.

Besides that, JJ didnt want to be here...thats not on Sarver.

 

[Mainstreet]

Besides that, JJ didnt want to be here...thats not on Sarver.

Well JJ would have signed with the Suns the season prior to his becoming a RFA for approximately 55M. The difference between the two parties was about 5M. Sarver did not endear himself to JJ when he told him to go out and prove himself as a RFA when he had already proved his value.

 

[pokerface]

Well JJ would have signed with the Suns the season prior to his becoming a RFA for approximately 55M. The difference between the two parties was about 5M. Sarver did not endear himself to JJ when he told him to go out and prove himself as a RFA when he had already proved his value.

Yeah and JJ didn't want to be Nash's decoy in the corner...remember?

Bottomline, JJ didnt want Sarver to match....doesnt matter about the year prior. If JJ had any brains at all he would have realized he had a inconsistant year and Sarver wanted to make sure. Sarver shouldnt be blamed for JJ's weakminded ways.

 

[Cheesebeef]

His third season was up and down as Chaplin stated. Everyone knew it including Sarver. JJ shot 43% FG and 30% from the three. It was only his final year he got it together and shot 46% FG and 48% from the three. Dont rewrite history cheesebeef...its not going to fly.

rewrite history? He went from 9.9 ppg and 40% shooting, 2.5 rebounds/assists to 16.7 ppg and 43 % shooting, 4.4 rebounds and 4.5 assists. ALL of his numbers except 3 point shooting went up across the board, DRAMATICALLY. When you have a very young player one year straight out of college, you don't let 5 million bucks over the course of 6 years be a sticking point, especially when your HIGHLY respected basketball people are telling you that he's worth it.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Yeah and JJ didn't want to be Nash's decoy in the corner...remember?

Bottomline, JJ didnt want Sarver to match....doesnt matter about the year prior. If JJ had any brains at all he would have realized he had a inconsistant year and Sarver wanted to make sure. Sarver shouldnt be blamed for JJ's weakminded ways.

of course the year before doesn't matter to you. it destroys your argument. All of Sarver's basketball people told him he should make the extension deal with JJ. He didn't and the fallout goes on him. Plain and simple. To argue otherwise is as foolish as claiming Sarver's a good Owner because he made the WCF while at the same time saying Kerr's lack-luster... even though he took us to the WCF.

 

[Mainstreet]

Bottomline, JJ didnt want Sarver to match....doesnt matter about the year prior.

Sarver's failure to give JJ an extension the year prior to RFA had everything to do with him leaving. The deal was there to be had. He was not refusing to sign with the Suns then. Whether JJ was going to be happy with being the Suns third or fourth option long term is another matter. We would have had JJ signed to a reasonable contract.

 

[pokerface]

of course the year before doesn't matter to you. it destroys your argument. All of Sarver's basketball people told him he should make the extension deal with JJ.

What are we supposed to believe....JJ was 100% right and Sarver was 100% wrong. It took two to tango in that dance. Sarver should have done the deal for 55 mill...but then again JJ was a fool to think he could be the man on the Hawks and carry a team. JJ was a petty weakminded idiot. The clown even came out and said he didnt care if fans showed up for games or not.

This is the goof you're crying over now??

 

[SunsTzu]

What are we supposed to believe....JJ was 100% right and Sarver was 100% wrong. It took two to tango in that dance. Sarver should have done the deal for 55 mill...but then again JJ was a fool to think he could be the man on the Hawks and carry a team. JJ was a petty weakminded idiot. The clown even came out and said he didnt care if fans showed up for games or not.

This is the goof you're crying over now??

Had he signed a 6 year 50mil extension he wanted he wouldn't have been needed to carry a team. He'd have been a 3rd option on a great contract.

 

[Mainstreet]

Had he signed a 6 year 50mil extension he wanted he wouldn't have been needed to carry a team. He'd have been a 3rd option on a great contract.

Sarver blew it by not extending JJ. A 70M contract is a lot better than a 50M contract. I think 20M might have been upfront. JJ made out like a bandit by waiting for RFA and Sarver lost big time.