Gambo and Ash - Barbosa closer than Diaw to a contract extension.

[Mainstreet]

...If anything, I'd like to see the rules tightened on initiating contact by guys like Shaq. Physically backing a guy down in the lane the way he does is nothing less than a slow charge and should be called as such.

In regard to the offensive player physically backing the defensive player down in the lane, I've often wondered why more players don't use the Charles Barkley defensive technique.

Initially apply pressure, then while the offensive player is really backing you down... step back and remove the pressure and invariably the offensive player travels.

It worked great for Charles. I'm surprised other players don't use this technique on defense. If Charles can figure this out... come on.

 

[nowagimp]

OT: Prime of their careers, who would you want on your team? Duncan, or Hakeem?

Edit: I'd take Hakeem.

I agree, Hakeem was the best all around center I ever saw. I'd give Duncan the nod on offense, but Hakeem was a superior defender, the NBA all time leader in blocked shots. Hakeem was as quick as just about any PF with great footwork on D and a quick jumper with great coordination on the block, a much better intimidator in the lane than Shaq, Duncan, Ewing, or Robinson. If Sam Cassel had arrived in Houston 3 years earlier, Jordan would probably have 2 less rings. Hakeems teams were guard starved, and other teams were afraid to trade a good guard to them. When they did win the championship, Mario Ellie(veteran CBA player), and Cassel, a rookie were the guards. Cassel won 2 championships in his first two year with Hakeem, then Hakeem went on a slide due to age and the heart condition that stopped his career.

 

[Chaplin]

I agree, Hakeem was the best all around center I ever saw. I'd give Duncan the nod on offense, but Hakeem was a superior defender, the NBA all time leader in blocked shots. Hakeem was as quick as just about any PF with great footwork on D and a quick jumper with great coordination on the block, a much better intimidator in the lane than Shaq, Duncan, Ewing, or Robinson. If Sam Cassel had arrived in Houston 3 years earlier, Jordan would probably have 2 less rings. Hakeems teams were guard starved, and other teams were afraid to trade a good guard to them. When they did win the championship, Mario Ellie(veteran CBA player), and Cassel, a rookie were the guards. Cassel won 2 championships in his first two year with Hakeem, then Hakeem went on a slide due to age and the heart condition that stopped his career.

I thought Kenny Smith was the starting Point Guard for those Houston teams.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I thought Kenny Smith was the starting Point Guard for those Houston teams.

he was - and Vernon Maxwell was the starting SG for the 94 team. Then, Kenny Smith and Drexler were the starting guards for the 95 title team.

Even that being said - to think Hakeem would have beaten ANY of those Bulls teams, especially that 2nd Bulls team which won 67 games is laughable. Those Rocket title teams were awful as far as NBA Champs go - the only reason they got there was because of injuries to the Suns after we had them dead to rights and those Suns teams weren't even as good as the Suns team that DID lose ot the Bulls in 93.

 

[Mainstreet]

I agree, Hakeem was the best all around center I ever saw. I'd give Duncan the nod on offense, but Hakeem was a superior defender, the NBA all time leader in blocked shots. Hakeem was as quick as just about any PF with great footwork on D and a quick jumper with great coordination on the block, a much better intimidator in the lane than Shaq, Duncan, Ewing, or Robinson. If Sam Cassel had arrived in Houston 3 years earlier, Jordan would probably have 2 less rings. Hakeems teams were guard starved, and other teams were afraid to trade a good guard to them. When they did win the championship, Mario Ellie(veteran CBA player), and Cassel, a rookie were the guards. Cassel won 2 championships in his first two year with Hakeem, then Hakeem went on a slide due to age and the heart condition that stopped his career.

In their prime, I'd take Hakeem over Duncan without thinking much about it.

IMO, however, the best center to ever play the game than I ever saw was Kareem in his prime.

Actually, if I were to ever to make an all-time Dream Team, Kareem would be the first player selected. And I saw Bill Russell and Chamberlain play live as well and the other players you mentioned. Kareem was about 7'4" of eloquence and grace that could do it all. Kareem was so agile, he did not have to use force to stop an offensive player. He could just block the shot, or more likely, the offensive player would not even try to put up an inside shot if he is nearby. And that skyhook he had was unstoppable and as good as money.

 

[sunsfn]

In their prime, I'd take Hakeem over Duncan without thinking much about it.

IMO, however, the best center to ever play the game than I ever saw was Kareem in his prime.

Actually, if I were to ever to make an all-time Dream Team, Kareem would be the first player selected. And I saw Bill Russell and Chamberlain play live as well and the other players you mentioned. Kareem was about 7'4" of eloquence and grace that could do it all. Kareem was so agile, he did not have to use force to stop an offensive player. He could just block the shot, or more likely, the offensive player would not even try to put up an inside shot if he is nearby. And that skyhook he had was unstoppable and as good as money.

Damn!!! You are "OLD"!!

 

[Gaddabout]

I agree on Kareem. He was automatic on offense. He had the only unguardable shot in the NBA that didn't involve brute force. People forget about his defense, too. He could block shots like any agile 7-footer will, but he was a fine one-on-one defender, too. It was really like having an extra man on the floor.

What seperates Kareem from the other big men in his class is even when he was past his prime he was still an impact player with his grace, skills, and knowledge of the game. He remains the only center I know of who was the best low-post AND high-post center of his generation.

 

[nowagimp]

he was - and Vernon Maxwell was the starting SG for the 94 team. Then, Kenny Smith and Drexler were the starting guards for the 95 title team.

Even that being said - to think Hakeem would have beaten ANY of those Bulls teams, especially that 2nd Bulls team which won 67 games is laughable. Those Rocket title teams were awful as far as NBA Champs go - the only reason they got there was because of injuries to the Suns after we had them dead to rights and those Suns teams weren't even as good as the Suns team that DID lose ot the Bulls in 93.

Cassel averaged 17 and 23 minutes a game for the 94/95 teams, Kenny smith 24 mins for the 95 team(wasnt on the 94 title team), Mario elie averaged 24/31 minutes on those teams. Kenny smith was mostly on the bench in the 4th quarter of the 95 team, and Cassel played most 4th quarters. Kenny Smith was too slow and couldnt create his own shot, hence he was sent to the bench in the 4th. On the 95 team, elie was playing 31 minutes at shooting guard and maxwell 33. Drexler was on the 95 team only, and played mostly SF, especially defensively, as he was at the end of his career.

The rockets were admittedly a weak team at the guard position that was pointed out earlier, but again the discussion was about who the best centers were not the guards or best overall team. Sure KJ could penetrate at will on the Rocketrs guards, especially Kenny Smith.

Of those guards, nobody wanted Kenny smith coming out of college(too slow), Maxwell was mediocre at best(39%FG's for the title teams, 32% 3pt), Elie was a good defender from the CBA wars and Cassel was an untested rookie. Drexler was on his last legs after 9-10 years of his hiwire act in portland.

As for Jabbar, he was the best offensive center of all time, but I was not all that impressed with his D, he was easily pushed around in the paint. Also there were few dominant centers in the NBA in his prime years(70's), so he rarely ever played against a great center until Moses Malone ate him up in old age.

Frankly, I dont mean to insult the many bulls fans here, but I have the best bulls team as maybe 7-8th best team of all time, no better. No post game, but almost no competition with a post game either. The Bulls were clearly vulnerable defensively down low, but there were few credible(read balanced teams) competitors with a post game.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Cassel averaged 17 and 23 minutes a game for the 94/95 teams, Kenny smith 24 mins for the 95 team(wasnt on the 94 title team), Mario elie averaged 24/31 minutes on those teams. Kenny smith was mostly on the bench in the 4th quarter of the 95 team, and Cassel played most 4th quarters. Kenny Smith was too slow and couldnt create his own shot, hence he was sent to the bench in the 4th. On the 95 team, elie was playing 31 minutes at shooting guard and maxwell 33. Drexler was on the 95 team only, and played mostly SF, especially defensively, as he was at the end of his career.

The rockets were admittedly a weak team at the guard position that was pointed out earlier, but again the discussion was about who the best centers were not the guards or best overall team. Sure KJ could penetrate at will on the Rocketrs guards, especially Kenny Smith.

Of those guards, nobody wanted Kenny smith coming out of college(too slow), Maxwell was mediocre at best(39%FG's for the title teams, 32% 3pt), Elie was a good defender from the CBA wars and Cassel was an untested rookie. Drexler was on his last legs after 9-10 years of his hiwire act in portland.

Frankly, I dont mean to insult the many bulls fans here, but I have the best bulls team as maybe 7-8th best team of all time, no better. No post game, but almost no competition with a post game either. The Bulls were clearly vulnerable defensively down low, but there were few credible(read balanced teams) competitors with a post game.

uh - not to completely derail this thread, but do you actually REMEMBER the 93-4, 94-95 Houston title teams? I sure as hell do - those SOBs are forever scratched into my mind - and yes, Kenny Smith WAS on both title teams:

http://www.databasebasketball.com/players/playerpage.htm?ilkid=SMITHKE01

if you're looking up Kenny Smith on NBA.com (because you don't remember what happened), well, don't you think it's odd that he's not listed as playing ANYWHERE before 1995? That's an error on the site. The guy played and was a starter on both teams, plain and simple. As far as Elie - again, not sure what you're looking at, but he averaged 24 minutes a game on both title teams, both less than Drex and Maxwell and then averaged 31 minutes the year after they won back to back.

You are right, though, I forgot that Max was still the starter averaging 30 +, with Drex at the SF, still doesn't change the fact that the guards, for the majority of the game for the Rockets in those title runs were Mad Max and Kenny Smith, not Elie and Cassel, which you said above.

As far as the Bulls being 7-8th, man, I hated those teams, but it doesn't mean I can't say what's plainly obvious. I mean, they played against Ewing (one of the eras best Centers of all time) and consistently kicked his ass and then kicked the crap out of Shaq in the second 3-peat, as well as Alonzo Mourning.
Cartwright was one of the better defensive C's in the game and Horace Grant was a tough defender, rebounder in the post as well, so how exactly were they vulnerable down low?

To think that those awful Rockets teams could have even taken 2 games from those Bulls teams is laughable, much less two rings.

 

[nowagimp]

uh - not to completely derail this thread, but do you actually REMEMBER the 93-4, 94-95 Houston title teams? I sure as hell do - those SOBs are forever scratched into my mind - and yes, Kenny Smith WAS on both title teams:

http://www.databasebasketball.com/players/playerpage.htm?ilkid=SMITHKE01

if you're looking up Kenny Smith on NBA.com (because you don't remember what happened), well, don't you think it's odd that he's not listed as playing ANYWHERE before 1995? That's an error on the site. The guy played and was a starter on both teams, plain and simple. As far as Elie - again, not sure what you're looking at, but he averaged 24 minutes a game on both title teams, both less than Drex and Maxwell and then averaged 31 minutes the year after they won back to back.

You are right, though, I forgot that Max was still the starter averaging 30 +, with Drex at the SF, still doesn't change the fact that the guards, for the majority of the game for the Rockets in those title runs were Mad Max and Kenny Smith, not Elie and Cassel, which you said above.

As far as the Bulls being 7-8th, man, I hated those teams, but it doesn't mean I can't say what's plainly obvious. I mean, they played against Ewing (one of the eras best Centers of all time) and consistently kicked his ass and then kicked the crap out of Shaq in the second 3-peat, as well as Alonzo Mourning.
Cartwright was one of the better defensive C's in the game and Horace Grant was a tough defender, rebounder in the post as well, so how exactly were they vulnerable down low?

To think that those awful Rockets teams could have even taken 2 games from those Bulls teams is laughable, much less two rings.

So to paraphrase your discussion, Maxwell and Smith(24/48 mins some starter) started, but played nearly equal minutes as cassel and ellie. All were mediocre guards by NBA standards except cassel who was a rook, which, if you did read the thread, was what was stated. But then I guess I should have known that stating that rockets guards were weak would degrade into who the starters were. I'm sorry I didnt remember your boys maxwell and smith as they were clearly inferior to cassel and ellie in the crunch. Drexler was finished and not nearly the player he was in portland.

Well forget it, we'll never agree anyway if you think Cartwright was a defensive center, thats a joke. Cartwright averaged 0.7 blocks per game for his NBA career, so whatever defensive skills he had it didnt include defending the lane. Maybe he was defending the bench area from gatorade muggers. Anyway, Horace Grant took over for Cartwright averaging an intimidating 1.0 block per game (career). I guess shawn Marion(1.32 blocks/game) would have been the best shot blocker on those bulls teams. Somehow, I am not impressed that none of these great low post defenders could block as many shots as shawn. But Marion is not known as a shot blocker even, so what does this mean cheese??

 

[Cheesebeef]

So to paraphrase your discussion, Maxwell and Smith(24/48 mins some starter) started, but played nearly equal minutes as cassel and ellie. All were mediocre guards by NBA standards except cassel who was a rook, which, if you did read the thread, was what was stated. But then I guess I should have known that stating that rockets guards were weak would degrade into who the starters were. I'm sorry I didnt remember your boys maxwell and smith as they were clearly inferior to cassel and ellie in the crunch. Drexler was finished and not nearly the player he was in portland.

Well forget it, we'll never agree anyway if you think Cartwright was a defensive center, thats a joke. Cartwright averaged 0.7 blocks per game for his NBA career, so whatever defensive skills he had it didnt include defending the lane. Maybe he was defending the bench area from gatorade muggers. Anyway, Horace Grant took over for Cartwright averaging an intimidating 1.0 block per game (career). I guess shawn Marion(1.32 blocks/game) would have been the best shot blocker on those bulls teams. Somehow, I am not impressed that none of these great low post defenders could block as many shots as shawn. But Marion is not known as a shot blocker even, so what does this mean cheese??

being a defensive low--post player isn't all about stats gimp - both of those guys were VERY GOOD man up defensive players, with the ability to play man up defense. But hey, you just want to point to stats, rather than remembering how people actually played, I guess that makes sense, considering you didn't even remember that Kenny Smith played for the Rockets in 94, much less STARTED at 28 minutes a game.

And as far as being weak in the crunch, anyone remember Kenny Smith nailing huge threes against NY in Game 7 of the Finals, the game tying three in Game 1 versus the Magic in Game 1 of the Finals or Vernon Maxwell going nuts on us in Games 3 and 4 in 94?

As far as Clyde being finished - that's a joke as well. He may not have been the MVP-wannabe Clyde, but the guy was THE second best player on that 2nd Rockets team.

Good grief man. Can you even remember that far back to those years because you don't seem to have any recollection of what those teams were. Cassel and Elie were solid bench players and Cassel hit some huge shots, but that team was a sum of it's parts and you make it out to seem like Maxwell and Kenny Smith were garbage who didn't contribute anything.

 

[Cheesebeef]

So to paraphrase your discussion, Maxwell and Smith(24/48 mins some starter) started, but played nearly equal minutes as cassel and ellie.

also curious here - how does averaging 28.5 minutes per game in 1994 (which is what Smith averaged versus 17 for Cassel) "nearly equal". It's apparent your memory is a little fuzzy here, but aparently your math is as well. Not to mention that Maxwell played 30 minutes per game and that in 1994, Elie came off the bench playing more SF than SG.

But, hey paraphrase, exaggerate - whatever floats your boat.

http://www.databasebasketball.com/players/playerpage.htm?ilkid=CASSESA01

Not to mention that in the playoffs, Kenny Smith averaged 30 minutes per game, starting for both teams, while Cassell averaged 21 minutes per game. But, again, I can see how a 10 minutes difference in playing time is basically equal...

 

[Cheesebeef]

So to paraphrase your discussion, Maxwell and Smith(24/48 mins some starter) started, but played nearly equal minutes as cassel and ellie.

you know, it also helps when you're "paraphrasing someone else's argument" to actually get it right, like this:

"still doesn't change the fact that the guards, for the majority of the game for the Rockets in those title runs were Mad Max and Kenny Smith, not Elie and Cassel, which you said above."

there's the nuts and bolts of it... where you got that they played equal minutes is beyond me.

 

[nowagimp]

being a defensive low--post player isn't all about stats gimp - both of those guys were VERY GOOD man up defensive players, with the ability to play man up defense. But hey, you just want to point to stats, rather than remembering how people actually played, I guess that makes sense, considering you didn't even remember that Kenny Smith played for the Rockets in 94, much less STARTED at 28 minutes a game.

And as far as being weak in the crunch, anyone remember Kenny Smith nailing huge threes against NY in Game 7 of the Finals, the game tying three in Game 1 versus the Magic in Game 1 of the Finals or Vernon Maxwell going nuts on us in Games 3 and 4 in 94?

As far as Clyde being finished - that's a joke as well. He may not have been the MVP-wannabe Clyde, but the guy was THE second best player on that 2nd Rockets team.

Good grief man. Can you even remember that far back to those years because you don't seem to have any recollection of what those teams were. Cassel and Elie were solid bench players and Cassel hit some huge shots, but that team was a sum of it's parts and you make it out to seem like Maxwell and Kenny Smith were garbage who didn't contribute anything.

My recollection was that the bulls could not defense Hakeem at all. With a little more skilled help, the rockets would have been the bulls worst matchup in the NBA. Its all about matchups, and Grant and cartwright were just not up to the job. Shotblocking is an expected skill for a 7' player, and cartwright was pathetic. He also did not move his feet well as a position defender, and Hakeem ate him up, period.

You know, I was waiting for you to readjust your perspective on Cartwright who has always been regarded as a poor defender, not one of the "better defenders" at his position. The guy blocked 10 shots ALL YEAR in '93 at 7' tall. He "ripped down" 6 rebounds a game for the '93 NBA champion bulls. Good grief, thats 1 blocked shot every 8 games, cheese. Kurt Thomas averaged one per game last year, 8 times as many as cartwright did for the '93 bulls. Those rebounding and shotblocking numbers were/are near the botom of the league for a starting center. Olajuwon destroyed that man, repeatedly as did many other credible low post threats. Every scout and NBA assistant coach knew the weakness of the bulls. My omission of smith and Maxwell, two forgettable performers, who made some "big" shots when left all alone while Hakeem was triple teamed?? Oh yeah, and starting PG smith averaged a whopping 3.8 assists a game for those champion rockets, how could I forget that incredible passing display? Compare that omission to your statement of "Cartwright is one of the better defensive centers in the NBA"?? Wow, I dont know what to tell you. The bulls had great perimeter defense, and the post was the weak spot that every coach targeted in game plans. Bill Cartwright at center at 35 years old(in '93) and seriously immobile was the weak link.


I guess everyones recollections are fragmented, but I have frozen in my memory the way Olajuwon just destroyed cartwright, and many others in the NBA.

You know, where this all started was in who was a better center, Hakeem or TD, remember?? Do you remember how Hakeem fared against the greatest centers of his era?? How about Ewing or Robinson, or shaq against Hakeem. He dominated those guys, he was that good. That horrible houston team had alot of journeymen who never even received an all star VOTE, not ONE for any of the guards(except clyde who was SF). Like Maxwell, a horrible decisionmaker and poor(39%) shooter at the 2 position. Smith, who couldnt create his own shot or play on ball defense to save his life, a steve kerr of sorts, only a "starting" PG. Do you remember Tomjanovich inserting cassel in the 4th quarter of playoff games because playoff D was too tough for Kenny Smith, he couldnt get off his shot unless left alone, period. Do you remember Elie coming in for Maxwell in the 4th? Yes that rockets team was a collection of pieces, many that other NBA teams didnt want. Of those guards, Cassel was the best talent and he was an undeveloped rookie. My original point was that Hakeem was so dominant that any help he received at the guard position, somebody who could make the entry pass, would have potentially changed the balance of power in the NBA. Jordan had WAY more help than Hakeem ever had and when he didnt in his first 6 years, he was out in the first round, period. Hakeem averaged 27 pts on 52% FG's, 11 rebs and 3.5 blocked shots on those teams. The bulls could beat the rockets if their outside shots were falling, but were in trouble if they did not fall cause the lane was closed off by Hakeem. The '94 rockets championship team were much better defensively -46% FG allowed-, than the '93 Bulls, who allowed 49.3% FG's. Now let me see, I dont think the defensive defecit of the '93 bulls compared with the '94 rockets was due to the guards, Pippen and Jordan compared with Kenny smith and gang, do you?

 

[George O'Brien]

Never used one of the "sign holders", but this seemed like as good a time to try it out.

Now, back to worrying about 1990's Rocket backcourt.

 

[Cheesebeef]

My recollection was that the bulls could not defense Hakeem at all. With a little more skilled help, the rockets would have been the bulls worst matchup in the NBA. Its all about matchups, and Grant and cartwright were just not up to the job. Shotblocking is an expected skill for a 7' player, and cartwright was pathetic. He also did not move his feet well as a position defender, and Hakeem ate him up, period.

You know, I was waiting for you to readjust your perspective on Cartwright who has always been regarded as a poor defender, not one of the "better defenders" at his position. The guy blocked 10 shots ALL YEAR in '93 at 7' tall. He "ripped down" 6 rebounds a game for the '93 NBA champion bulls. Good grief, thats 1 blocked shot every 8 games, cheese. Kurt Thomas averaged one per game last year, 8 times as many as cartwright did for the '93 bulls. Those rebounding and shotblocking numbers were/are near the botom of the league for a starting center. Olajuwon destroyed that man, repeatedly as did many other credible low post threats. Every scout and NBA assistant coach knew the weakness of the bulls. My omission of smith and Maxwell, two forgettable performers, who made some "big" shots when left all alone while Hakeem was triple teamed?? Oh yeah, and starting PG smith averaged a whopping 3.8 assists a game for those champion rockets, how could I forget that incredible passing display? Compare that omission to your statement of "Cartwright is one of the better defensive centers in the NBA"?? Wow, I dont know what to tell you. The bulls had great perimeter defense, and the post was the weak spot that every coach targeted in game plans. Bill Cartwright at center at 35 years old(in '93) and seriously immobile was the weak link.

we can agree to disagree here. There's no doubt that Hakeem would have eaten up Cartwright... he ate up everyone - no one's debating that. But I guess you believe that the Bulls great defensive teams were basically all due to TWO players - because we all know that BJ Armstrong/Paxson were not good defenders and apparently, according to you, GRant and Cartwright were poor defenders also. MJ and Scottie may have been the best at their respective positions, but you don't win THREE titles in a row without some kind of tough interior defense. And if that spot was SUCH a weak spot, I think SOMONE would have been able to figure out a way to beat it, especially those Knicks team with Patrick Ewing in his prime.

I guess everyones recollections are fragmented, but I have frozen in my memory the way Olajuwon just destroyed cartwright, and many others in the NBA.

To be honest, I don't remember watching a lot of Hakeem versus Cartwright, but it doesn't surprise me that he killed him - like you said, Hakeem killed almost everyone.

You know, where this all started was in who was a better center, Hakeem or TD, remember?? Do you remember how Hakeem fared against the greatest centers of his era?? How about Ewing or Robinson, or shaq against Hakeem. He dominated those guys, he was that good. That horrible houston team had alot of journeymen who never even received an all star VOTE, not ONE for any of the guards(except clyde who was SF). Like Maxwell, a horrible decisionmaker and poor(39%) shooter at the 2 position. Smith, who couldnt create his own shot or play on ball defense to save his life, a steve kerr of sorts, only a "starting" PG. Do you remember Tomjanovich inserting cassel in the 4th quarter of playoff games because playoff D was too tough for Kenny Smith, he couldnt get off his shot unless left alone, period. Do you remember Elie coming in for Maxwell in the 4th? Yes that rockets team was a collection of pieces, many that other NBA teams didnt want. Of those guards, Cassel was the best talent and he was an undeveloped rookie. My original point was that Hakeem was so dominant that any help he received at the guard position, somebody who could make the entry pass, would have potentially changed the balance of power in the NBA. Jordan had WAY more help than Hakeem ever had and when he didnt in his first 6 years, he was out in the first round, period. Hakeem averaged 27 pts on 52% FG's, 11 rebs and 3.5 blocked shots on those teams. The bulls could beat the rockets if their outside shots were falling, but were in trouble if they did not fall cause the lane was closed off by Hakeem. The '94 rockets championship team were much better defensively -46% FG allowed-, than the '93 Bulls, who allowed 49.3% FG's. Now let me see, I dont think the defensive defecit of the '93 bulls compared with the '94 rockets was due to the guards, Pippen and Jordan compared with Kenny smith and gang, do you?

Bottom line for me - eh - we can go on and on here - we differ in opinion - and we're WAYYYYYYYYY off topic.

Just my .02 cents, I'd take Hakeem over any of the other Cs.

 

[George O'Brien]

Team defense is not always a function of great individual defenders. The Bulls played very good team defense even though guys like Cartwright were hardly dominant. Even Longley looked like he could play defense when with the Bulls, which was certainly not the case in Phoenix.

 

[nowagimp]

Team defense is not always a function of great individual defenders. The Bulls played very good team defense even though guys like Cartwright were hardly dominant. Even Longley looked like he could play defense when with the Bulls, which was certainly not the case in Phoenix.

You guys need to let go of the '93 bulls being a great defensive team, it just wasnt true. They allowed opponents to shoot 49.3% FG's, which was very likely not even in the top half of the league. The rockets were limiting opponents to 46%, the knicks 43%. What the bulls could do is pressure for turnovers in the backcourt(especially in the 4th) and play great perimeter defense WHEN Pippen and Jordan were in the game. Horace Grant was an excellent rebounder and position defender, but 49.3% FG defense is just not very good for any team. The Bulls defense was focussed on denying the entry pass to post players with their(MJ,PIP) length and quickness, but if the ball could be delivered inside, it was up to the guards to double down and get the strip or else it was longley, Wennington, or cartwright, three of the slowest centers in the NBA on the low block being posterized. Houston did look very good against the '93 bulls, they just couldnt consistently beat other good teams teams like the sonics or suns. Note that both sonics and suns had serious inside(Kemp, Barkley), and outside offensive games, the bulls were pretty much pot luck on the low post, which made them struggle more against the rockets who could use Hakeem, Horry, and thorpe to limit the drives of Pippen and Jordan.

And cheese, I differ on Ewing as well, because he was a fadeaway jumpshooter, he didnt take the ball to the rack like David or Hakeem or shaq or even Zo. Those guys(not patrick) could fake the fadeaway or hook and then come up and under the defender and go to the rim. And the knicks were outmatched at guard against the bulls, just like the rockets, but Ewing was unable to consistently carry the team if his fadeaway wasnt dropping. He just couldnt put the ball on the floor, execute a spin move and take it to the rack like Robinson, Hakeem, or Shaq.

Also cheese, Kenny Smith had clyde, hakeem, Horry, and thorpe and could only manage a career high 4 asst/game. What kind of point guard is that? I'll offer my opinion that Kenny couldnt even penetrate to set up a dime, thats pathetic. What I remember from those rocket teams is Horry, Cassel and Elie playing well above their heads in the crunch.

My original point is that the bulls were beatable by strong post play, but most of the teams with strong post players had mediocre to poor guard talent, which the bulls attacked with glee. The sonics had the talent to beat the bulls as did the '93 suns, but the Peyton tended to play like Marbury in the crunch and the suns did not play any D, and still came very close to beating the bulls. I'll even go further and say with todays hand checking rules, the suns would have beaten the '93 bulls. No bull could have guarded KJ without alot of what is now illegal hand checking.

 

[SactownSunsFan]

Never used one of the "sign holders", but this seemed like as good a time to try it out.

Now, back to worrying about 1990's Rocket backcourt.

Haha. I was going to say something similar. Last time I checked this thread, it was about Barbosa, Diaw and contract extensions. How'd it become a discussion on Kareem, the Rockets and the Bulls?

 

[Cheesebeef]

Also cheese, Kenny Smith had clyde, hakeem, Horry, and thorpe and could only manage a career high 4 asst/game. What kind of point guard is that? I'll offer my opinion that Kenny couldnt even penetrate to set up a dime, thats pathetic. What I remember from those rocket teams is Horry, Cassel and Elie playing well above their heads in the crunch.

gimp - I think you may be missing the point of what I was saying - I never said Smith was anything but what you're describing, but he was a key member of those teams, starting, averaging 30 minutes per game. Not sure why you continue to imply that I think Kenny was anything but what he was, an average PG, who if left open, could hit the three. And regardless of if you remember it or not, he did play down the stretch of many Rocket games, just like Cassel, who was a key member of the team in 94, but gained greater prominence in 95.

My original point is that the bulls were beatable by strong post play, but most of the teams with strong post players had mediocre to poor guard talent, which the bulls attacked with glee. The sonics had the talent to beat the bulls as did the '93 suns, but the Peyton tended to play like Marbury in the crunch and the suns did not play any D, and still came very close to beating the bulls. I'll even go further and say with todays hand checking rules, the suns would have beaten the '93 bulls. No bull could have guarded KJ without alot of what is now illegal hand checking.

But can't that go the other way, as well? I mean even WITH the hand-checking rules, Jordan went off for 42 ppg, without them, the guy could have scored 50 for all we know. As far as coming close to beating the Bulls, when you have homecourt advantage and lose the first two games, quite handidly and then squeek out a 3OT game and then lose the next to be down 3-1 in a series AND then lose ANOTHER game at home doesn't show me that we were "very close" to beating the Bulls. If the series had ever been tied, or if we took it to 7, then, yeah, maybe you could make that claim, but bottom line was any time the Bulls NEEDED to accomplish something, they did and when they didn't, they relaxed, just like they had ALL SEASON long - you do remember that that Bulls team only won 56 games and ended up as the 2 seed, coasting through the season, only to turn it on in the postseason.

As far as Seattle was concerned - that team couldn't beat Chicago either - hell, they couldn't even beat what was IMO a WORSE Chicago team three years later when Kemp and Payton werein their prime and got handled rather easily going down 3-0 before bowing out in a pathetic Game 6 where the Sonics scored 75 points, or something digusting like that.

All that being said - GET FREAKING DIAW SIGNED TO A FREAKING CONTRACT EXTENSION!

 

[nowagimp]

All that being said - GET FREAKING DIAW SIGNED TO A FREAKING CONTRACT EXTENSION!

We can agree to disagree on whether smith was good enough to be an "average point guard". I think that steve Kerr may have done an even better job for the rockets, he was a better shooter of open shots. We can agree to disagree whether hand checking would have favored KJ or MJ (personally, I feel that hand checking ALWAYS favors the bigger player as its used to slow down the smaller, faster player, and KJ was faster than MJ or any 2 or 3 in the nba for that matter). But as far as signing Diaw goes, I totally agree, get it done now because he may elevate his game again next year and be regarded as a near max player.

 

[Mainstreet]

I can seriously say I don't know how high is Diaw's ceiling. Did he reach his peak this past season or will he just get better? His quiet, polite demeanor just makes him that much harder to evaluate.

Since I don't know how good he can be in the future and he was awesome last season, the Suns need to get him signed now. I don't think he will become a super star... but I haven't ruled it out just yet either.

Actually, when Joe Johnson was traded I did not think his ceiling was much higher. Again with Diaw, I'm not sure how good he can be. He steadily improved last season and just got better in the playoffs.

 

[Joe Mama]

If we start hearing reports that the Phoenix Suns could have signed Diaw for 5 years, and $45-55 million but didn't I am going to be very upset. They may be playing hardball with him right now. However if/when he tears up international basketball in the world championships his agent will hear the buzz and either hold out or ask for more.

Even if he simply repeats his performance from last year I could easily see some stupid team offering him something close to a maximum contract. I'm not sure who will have the space to do it next season. If Bryan Colangelo did I could easily see him doing it.

Get it done.

Joe

 

[SirStefan32]

I can seriously say I don't know how high is Diaw's ceiling. Did he reach his peak this past season or will he just get better? His quiet, polite demeanor just makes him that much harder to evaluate.

Since I don't know how good he can be in the future and he was awesome last season, the Suns need to get him signed now. I don't think he will become a super star... but I haven't ruled it out just yet either.

Actually, when Joe Johnson was traded I did not think his ceiling was much higher. Again with Diaw, I'm not sure how good he can be. He steadily improved last season and just got better in the playoffs.

Amazing thing about Diaw is that he can do everything there is to do. He looks like Magic Johnson junior out there. I think he needs to improve his shooting a bit and he will be unstopable. He is one hell of a player and the Suns need to sign him as soon as possible.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

If we start hearing reports that the Phoenix Suns could have signed Diaw for 5 years, and $45-55 million but didn't I am going to be very upset. They may be playing hardball with him right now. However if/when he tears up international basketball in the world championships his agent will hear the buzz and either hold out or ask for more.

Even if he simply repeats his performance from last year I could easily see some stupid team offering him something close to a maximum contract. I'm not sure who will have the space to do it next season. If Bryan Colangelo did I could easily see him doing it.

Get it done.

Joe

This is exactly what I am afraid of happening...then, they'll give the whole, "we like him, but don't feel he is worth the max", and justify letting him go. At this point, I would say that Diaw has as high a ceiling as anyone on the team, and will be extemely important going forward. If we blow this over a few millions, on top of losing BC, things will be looking pretty bleak.