Gambo and Ash - Barbosa closer than Diaw to a contract extension.

[Mainstreet]

As I said, agents and GM's talk all the time. The issue is whether the a deal is "close" (the whole point of the discussion) and I would not expect a mega deal happening without some face time. In any case, this is not like a free agency deal. They have until late October to get an extension done.

In any case, I'd watch very closely the RFA negotiations for Wilcox, Gooden, and Jeffries. So far, the Nene signing is the only RFA re-signing and it may be viewed as an anomoly. In movement situations, none of the big money deals have been RFA's. Elson and Butler are low end and Banks was was unrestricted.

For every JJ situation, there are a half dozen RFA's that get no phone calls. Rational GM's have learned that it takes making a terrible overpayment to take a guy now that the Clippers aren't giving away players any more. So while it's true the Suns risk another JJ situation, Boris risks becoming a Gooden if his agent cons him into excessive demands.

This is a very high stakes game with literally millions at stake. To strike a deal, both sides have to give but both have take the other side seriously.

I really think what George is trying to say is that the market will determine the value for Diaw, almost how the NFL teams generally signs later picks before early picks... slotting so to speak (if that makes any sense).

However, this stategy does not work well in the NBA because it only takes one team to overpay for a player of equal or lesser quality to determine the market for high end players, especially big men.

Unfortunately, Nene established what a big man can get based mostly on just potential. Now the Suns can only hope they can work a lesser deal for Diaw based on common sense... not upside. Because not only Diaw played great last season and in the playoffs... but, IMO, has just as much or more upside than Nene.

The Suns need to sign Diaw this summer and decide who they may need to trade next summer. The same with Barbosa if his extension price is within reason.

 

[F-Dog]

Go back on earth and face the truth, NBA is a business. You, americans, love giving the world lessons of liberalism. You can't reproach someone to take the money when he can. This is the market law. If you have a problem with it, you can try communism

I think you're confusing me with a different American here.


Actually, I wasn't serious about reproaching Boris. I'm just pointing out that there's a point at which it makes more sense for the Suns to trade Boris than to keep him, and $55m/5yrs is probably beyond that point.

If Boris wants to get every last dollar he can, he'll be playing for a different team in 2007. I would think he'd prefer to stay with the Suns for less, but if that's not the case...

Remember when we were debating if Joe was worth 50 million the summer before he left in restricted free agency? Well look what ended up happening.

Of course I do, and unlike a lot of people here, I was a big fan of paying Joe $50m at the time.

There are two differences this time around. First, the Suns went out and proved me wrong with Joe Johnson, by getting a better deal for him in S&T than they would have had by signing him in the first place. Second, 5/55 is an extra $3.5m per year over what Joe was asking for in 2004--we're talking about giving Boris "Joe Johnson money" plus "Marcus Banks money", in one contract.



We're starting to get beyond Marion vs. Diaw here--if the Hawks are as bad as we all hope next season, there's a good chance the Suns can't afford either of them. The team's best course of action in the long term might be to dump both of them, keep Barbosa, add a mid-priced SF, and replace Diaw with Mr. Atlanta 2007.

Pure insanity....

Baseball fan...

 

[nowagimp]

Does Boris worth $55m? IMO yes, ess talented players have this.

Should the Suns give him so much? I am not sure because MARION/NASH/AMARE are already in.

Should Boris ask $55m? I don't think so. the suns are a pefect team for him. He should accept a little discount to stay there. But even if he isn't greedy the suns will have to give him much.

Did the suns saved Boris? maybe, but Boris saved the suns.

His boris a third option?
I DON'T CARE
Who scores doesn't matter while the team can score!
The question is does he make the team better? Yes! Can he score? Yes Can he pass, rebound, block? Yes! Can he create shot for himself and teammates? Yes! Can he be a clutch player? Yes! Is he better when comes the playoff time? yes! Will Boris be more valuable than Marion in 2 years? IMO yes.


Go back on earth and face the truth, NBA is a business. You, americans, love giving the world lessons of liberalism. You can't reproach someone to take the money when he can. This is the market law. If you have a problem with it, you can try communism

More like, sign Diaw to the 55M contract, if necessary, play next season and then re-examine the roster and explore deals. For example, if it is decided Boris(or Marion or both) has too big a contract to sustain a championship contender, he might be traded with the atlanta pick for an expiring contract and the overall #1 that would be Oden. As much as I like Diaw and Marion, the NBA is a business and if they negotiate contracts that prevent the suns from fielding a deep enough team to win, deal them for younger top notch talent that costs less. The problem Boris and the suns have is that there are a number of large contracts already, so his bargaining for the best contract $$wise could force the hand of management to trade him to a big loser with a good 1st round pick, like the Trail Blazers or Bobcats, for their #1 pick and an expiring contract.

The problem with the suns system is that they need alot of good players to score and run, not just a 6 man rotation that might be used by a slow tempo team. The economics are that the suns cannot afford to eat up all their cap space with 4 players or else there will be no bench and they will not win without a bench. This is the american law of economics, if costs are too high, cut them. Marion probably goes before Diaw, but perhaps both go depending on their trade value and cap considerations. I might trade Marion and Diaw for KG and Foye +expiring contract if Foye proves himself this year as a top talent. Remember that the suns have 3 first rounders next year and they will have no rookie contracts then to help balance costs.

 

[boisesuns]

Maybe we can talk marion into a paycut.....

 

[SirStefan32]

Maybe we can talk marion into a paycut.....

yeah, that's gonna happen at the same time Charley Barkley goes down to 250 lb.

 

[TucsonDevil]

Maybe we should start trashing Diaw on this and other boards in hopes of driving down his value... just an idea.

 

[George O'Brien]

Nene has not set the market value of a player, because there is no evidence that anyone ofther than the Nuggets were involved. Wilcox and Gooden are much more interesting and the lack of suitors is going to become a real issue in a month or so.

As an aside, I really wish people would include number of years when discussing contracts. For example, the initial JJ discussion was $50 million over 6 years, which the Suns upped to $60 million over 6. He eventually got $75 million over FIVE years, which is so absurd you can understand why Belkins figured the Suns were bluffing when they said they'd match.

My guess is the Suns are offering in the neighborhood of $40 million over five years (average of $8), which would be the equivalent of $48 over six. $50 million over five is the equivalent of $60 million over six.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Nene has not set the market value of a player, because there is no evidence that anyone ofther than the Nuggets were involved. Wilcox and Gooden are much more interesting and the lack of suitors is going to become a real issue in a month or so.

As an aside, I really wish people would include number of years when discussing contracts. For example, the initial JJ discussion was $50 million over 6 years, which the Suns upped to $60 million over 6. He eventually got $75 million over FIVE years, which is so absurd you can understand why Belkins figured the Suns were bluffing when they said they'd match.

My guess is the Suns are offering in the neighborhood of $40 million over five years (average of $8), which would be the equivalent of $48 over six. $50 million over five is the equivalent of $60 million over six.

what are you talking about? The initial JJ discussion was extending him at 45 for FIVE years. You can't extend players formore than 5 years George and we balked at 5 for 50. Then, the following offseason, we offered 60 for 6. Or are you intimating that the offseason where he was a RFA, we offered 50 for 6 years, which is LESS than what we offered him the year before, even though he played much better? And then, JJ got 70 for 5 years with the Hawks. How is it possible to have a conversation with you when you CAN'T EVEN GET ANY FACTS RIGHT?

If you're right (which I can't even begin to believe you are) and the Suns are offering 40 for 5, they're smoking crack. That's an insult to Boris and really an insult to Suns fans IMO.

 

[SirStefan32]

If you're right (which I can't even begin to believe you are) and the Suns are offering 40 for 5, they're smoking crack. That's an insult to Boris and really an insult to Suns fans IMO.

I think it's a good starting offer.

 

[SunsTzu]

what are you talking about? The initial JJ discussion was extending him at 45 for FIVE years. You can't extend players formore than 5 years George and we balked at 5 for 50. Then, the following offseason, we offered 60 for 6. Or are you intimating that the offseason where he was a RFA, we offered 50 for 6 years, which is LESS than what we offered him the year before, even though he played much better? And then, JJ got 70 for 5 years with the Hawks. How is it possible to have a conversation with you when you CAN'T EVEN GET ANY FACTS RIGHT?

If you're right (which I can't even begin to believe you are) and the Suns are offering 40 for 5, they're smoking crack. That's an insult to Boris and really an insult to Suns fans IMO.

In '04 when JJ was up for extention the max length of a contract was 7 years(Kobe signed his 7 year deal that year). So JJ could be extended 6 years and I actually believe George is correct in his figures. The Suns and JJ were reportedly 5mil apart with the Suns offering 6yr 45mil and JJ wanting 6yr 50mil. I still find it hard to believe they couldn't come to terms being less than a mil per apart.

As far as Diaw I'd gladly pay him 10mil per at this point. I'd be willing to give him 11mil per(and hopefully work out a team option or mutual option). Anything more than that and may as well just see what he gets on the open market imo.

 

[Cheesebeef]

In '04 when JJ was up for extention the max length of a contract was 7 years(Kobe signed his 7 year deal that year). So JJ could be extended 6 years and I actually believe George is correct in his figures. The Suns and JJ were reportedly 5mil apart with the Suns offering 6yr 45mil and JJ wanting 6yr 50mil. I still find it hard to believe they couldn't come to terms being less than a mil per apart.

correct me if I'm wrong here, but has the CBA changed between the 04 offseason and the 05 offseason? Players on their rookie contracts can only extend up to 5 years... that's why Amare extended 5 years, it's why Ming extended 5 years and it's why everyone else would have extended 5 years this year if Lebron ahdn't realized he needs to get done with this next contract to get the 7-year type of contract that Kobe got on his 3RD contract.

 

[Cheesebeef]

p.s. - if I'm wrong on all the above, my apologies George.

 

[Joe Mama]

p.s. - if I'm wrong on all the above, my apologies George.

you are wrong. When JJ was eligible for his extension they were talking about 6 years, and the Phoenix Suns offered $45 million while JJ was holding out for $50 million. The following summer AFTER the new CBA was done the Suns started by offering 6 years at $60 million.

Joe

 

[Cheesebeef]

you are wrong. When JJ was eligible for his extension they were talking about 6 years, and the Phoenix Suns offered $45 million while JJ was holding out for $50 million. The following summer AFTER the new CBA was done the Suns started by offering 6 years at $60 million.

Joe

then I offer my humblest apologies and actually offer up MORE scorn for the Suns. We offered JJ LESS than what Ginobli got even though JJ was younger AND had a better season. That's just ridiculous. This entire time I thought it was 5 years for 45, but good lord, 6 years for 45 is just a slap in the face, especially when you consider they woudln't go up to 6 years for 50 - even THAT would have been less than what Ginobli got.

None of the above makes me feel comfortable as far as the Boris extension. In fact, it leads me to believe we have no shot at re-signing him due to an apparent belief in the "Suns discount".

 

[SunsTzu]

then I offer my humblest apologies and actually offer up MORE scorn for the Suns. We offered JJ LESS than what Ginobli got even though JJ was younger AND had a better season. That's just ridiculous. This entire time I thought it was 5 years for 45, but good lord, 6 years for 45 is just a slap in the face, especially when you consider they woudln't go up to 6 years for 50 - even THAT would have been less than what Ginobli got.

None of the above makes me feel comfortable as far as the Boris extension. In fact, it leads me to believe we have no shot at re-signing him due to an apparent belief in the "Suns discount".

I remember not many Suns fans actually believed JJ was worth even the 45mil deal. There was a prevailing belief that he wouldn't be able to beat out Q. I actually couldn't understand how 6 years 50mil was a bad deal.

The Diaw situtation is a bit different in the fact that he played strong the entire year on a top 4 team. He also put up good numbers in the playoffs. I'll with hold judgement on the Suns front office in regards to Diaw until I hear what is being discussed. If the Suns fail to sign him and he isn't asking for anything over 11mil per I'd consider it a stupid move.

 

[Joe Mama]

then I offer my humblest apologies and actually offer up MORE scorn for the Suns. We offered JJ LESS than what Ginobli got even though JJ was younger AND had a better season. That's just ridiculous. This entire time I thought it was 5 years for 45, but good lord, 6 years for 45 is just a slap in the face, especially when you consider they woudln't go up to 6 years for 50 - even THAT would have been less than what Ginobli got.

None of the above makes me feel comfortable as far as the Boris extension. In fact, it leads me to believe we have no shot at re-signing him due to an apparent belief in the "Suns discount".

first of all, Ginobili was a free agent while JJ was negotiating an extension. There was immediate competition for the services of Manu while JJ was negotiating for his future security. Furthermore, JJ put up the biggest part of his numbers in 2003-04 after Marbury had been traded and Amare Stoudemire was injured. When he wasn't the primary ball handler and scorer he was inconsistent at best.

You've talked about stepping it up in the playoffs, and I agree that part of the game is very important. Prior to the summer 2004 JJ played in 6 playoff games against San Antonio the previous season. He went from scoring 9.8 ppg at 40%, 3 rpg, and 2.6 apg during the regular season to 5.3 ppg at 28%, 4.3 rpg, and 1.3 apg. In short, he was horrible.

On the other hand, in 2003-04 Ginobilli went from season averages of 12.8 ppg at 42%, 4.5 rpg, and 3.8 apg to a playoff average of 13 ppg at 45%, 5.3 rpg, and 2.9 apg. Furthermore, he had a couple big games against the Lakers in their seven-game series.

Lastly, I think everyone was surprised by how well JJ played in 2004-05. I for one thought that his overall numbers would decrease since it looked like he was going to be a fourth or fifth option on offense. I thought it best he would look like he did at the beginning of the 2003-04 season... inconsistent. Even though it later proved to be a mistake not to give him the 6 years, $50 million I still believe it was the right move at the time. Well, at least I didn't think it was a big mistake.

The situation with Boris Diaw is different. He was very consistent all last season, and he looked great in the playoffs. He also has a lot more to show, and I think it's pretty safe to assume that he's going to be a big part of the offense next season. Barring injury somebody will give Boris Diaw a big deal next summer. He may not get a frontloaded maximum contract like JJ, but it's going to be more than $10 million per season.

Joe Mama

 

[George O'Brien]

I don't know enough about Diaw's agent to know how hard he's going to push. If his demands are such that the Suns don't gain anything over waiting and matching next summer, then that's what will happen.