Gambo Said this today about Doncic .........

[Cheesebeef]

I dont think he will have any issue with range on his jumper. While I guess you can call him a tweener due to his athleticism (which is just solid/good/ok),

His athleticism is average... It's not solid nor good, IMO. If it was, I probably wouldn't be as leery. He looks crafty... not quick. But crafty could get you killed... especially if he's the 2nd (Booker fits into this mold as well) of our big 3 who's not athletically gifted. We might be able to get away with that on O, but it could crush us on D.

the more swingmen you have on your roster the better. This is especially true in Bud's system.

Not sure I totally agree with this... especially when 2 of your 3 swingmen aren't great athletes. And while I think Bud is a good idea as coach for a team of youngsters, his Atlanta teams have made the playoffs, but been complete paper tigers come playoff time.

I point to the Warriors, 76ers, Celtics. You need a plethora of interchangeable parts, guys who can shoot and pass, play and defend multiple positions. Thats where the league is right now. Doncic fits based on his skill level and size.

Here's why I think pointing to the Warriors and Sixers is problematic. Those teams have ATHLETIC FREAKS on their team. The Warriors have GREAT defenders with Klay, Durant and Green... and Iggy is as well, and Livingston is solid too. And in that mix, they have guys who are athletic freaks (Durant) who are 6'11, a freak with Green who can somehow lock down 3-5 at 6'6. They're also ALL good to great shooters. Our big 3 would have ONE shooter and none of the size that the Warriors have. They aren't just a team of swingmen. Like you said, they can all defend multiple positions... Doncic/Booker just can not do that. And the Warriors when they're great are great because they're not only ridiculous on O, but are stingy AF on D.

As for the Celtics... they're paper tigers until proven otherwise. Once they get Kyrie and Hayward back, they might fit into the mold of interchangeable swing-men, but the jury's out there.

As for The Sixers, they have CLASSIC size, while also based around a 6'10 point guard who can run the floor, get his shot at any time and take it strong to the hoop unlike anyone since Magic and Embiid is a legit 7 footer with MASSIVE skill and athleticism. We have nothing like EITHER of those guys and Doncic doesn't have the size or athleticism of Simmons.

And most important... what I think people are missing in putting the team together is that they're looking at how to construct a team RIGHT NOW, when you should be looking to the future. This team isn't going to contend for a title for a couple years AT LEAST, so trying to follow the Warriors model is short-sighted, IMO.

Looking to the future when we actually will be able to contend, you have to look at the up and comers right now. The teams that will take over after the Rockets/Warriors start tailing off. And those teams are Utah, the Celtics and most imposing... the Sixers. That's what this team needs to look to the future to compete for a title. Utah and The Sixers have classically built teams size wize and the Celtics have athletes galore, if not great size (and probably the best coach in the biz). Hell, if you want to include the Raptors in there, that's a team with classic size as well. And if you look at the Pelicans, they have classic size as well. Those teams are all the future and those are the ones we're going to end up (hopefully) battling with moving forward. To do that with a team built around a bunch of swing-men (only one of which is a great athlete) seems like a recipe for disaster.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I think you’re right. And as a result we are behind the trend. That said I personally struggle with letting go of the pg-sg-sf-pf-c paradigm myself so I can’t cast blame.

here's the problem with the above... in any business, when rebuilding, it's folly to look at the trend RIGHT NOW because by the time you rebuild, that trend will likely be over. When starting as low as we are, you need to look past the present and look to the future to see who's up and coming and what it will take to beat those teams... the Sixers, Utah, Boston, the Pelicans. Maybe even the tail-end of the Raptors. All those teams sans Boston have athleticism AND size. You draft Doncic and our big three has very little of both.

 

[pokerface]

I think you’re right. And as a result we are behind the trend. That said I personally struggle with letting go of the pg-sg-sf-pf-c paradigm myself so I can’t cast blame.

I'm back and forth myself....

 

[Cheesebeef]

I'm back and forth myself....

Look at the starting lineup the Warriors have tonight.

It’s interchangeable... and HUGE. They’re 6’6, 6’5, 6’7, 6’11 and 7 foot.

Interchangeable is great... when you have an unreal combo of speed, shooting AND size. I fear a big 3 Of Doncic/Booker/Jackson just doesn’t give you a strong enough base for all three factors that make the Warriors so successful.

 

[BC867]

I'm not thinking this board ascribes to positionless or BPA much...

Question for ya. Are you talking about defense as well as offense as far as positionless or BPA?

Or does it not matter, because the Suns are not a team to dominate post play or defense?

 

[BC867]

Look at the starting lineup the Warriors have tonight.

It’s interchangeable... and HUGE. They’re 6’6, 6’5, 6’7, 6’11 and 7 foot.

Is that interchangeable . . . or just tall all around?

 

[pokerface]

Question for ya. Are you talking about defense as well as offense as far as positionless or BPA?

Or does it not matter, because the Suns are not a team to dominate post play or defense?

Well we might screwed regardless because Ayton, Bagley, and Doncic aren't known for stellar defense.

 

[Mr. Boldin]

His athleticism is average... It's not solid nor good, IMO. If it was, I probably wouldn't be as leery. He looks crafty... not quick. But crafty could get you killed... especially if he's the 2nd (Booker fits into this mold as well) of our big 3 who's not athletically gifted. We might be able to get away with that on O, but it could crush us on D.

I do agree with you on the defensive side of the ball. But, as I have posted earlier, Bud's calling card (outside of his system) is being able to find and develop two way wings. Thats his forte. Suns have enough assets to find a few two way wings who can play 2-3 and 3-4, with the hope Jackson is the centerpiece there.

Not sure I totally agree with this... especially when 2 of your 3 swingmen aren't great athletes. And while I think Bud is a good idea as coach for a team of youngsters, his Atlanta teams have made the playoffs, but been complete paper tigers come playoff time.

I mean, thats what Buds system is predicated on, not to mention what the league is predicated on right now. If you consider shot creation the #1 skill in the league, which I do, the more guys you have who can create, the better. Now, I dont think Doncic is a pure shot creator, as he struggles 1v1. However, like I said earlier, hes your ace PNR ball handler. When you have a guy that size, that good in the PNR, with that type of elite vision, you dictate things offensively. You can now have anyone screen for Doncic and create a matchup you like... That is.. unless you are facing a team like the Warriors, 76ers, Celtics. Teams with equal size, length, defensive ability across all positions. Which leads back to your point about Doncic's athleticism and defense on the other end of the floor, so I agree there again.

Here's why I think pointing to the Warriors and Sixers is problematic. Those teams have ATHLETIC FREAKS on their team. The Warriors have GREAT defenders with Klay, Durant and Green... and Iggy is as well, and Livingston is solid too. And in that mix, they have guys who are athletic freaks (Durant) who are 6'11, a freak with Green who can somehow lock down 3-5 at 6'6. They're also ALL good to great shooters. Our big 3 would have ONE shooter and none of the size that the Warriors have. They aren't just a team of swingmen. Like you said, they can all defend multiple positions... Doncic/Booker just can not do that. And the Warriors when they're great are great because they're not only ridiculous on O, but are stingy AF on D.

As for the Celtics... they're paper tigers until proven otherwise. Once they get Kyrie and Hayward back, they might fit into the mold of interchangeable swing-men, but the jury's out there.

As for The Sixers, they have CLASSIC size, while also based around a 6'10 point guard who can run the floor, get his shot at any time and take it strong to the hoop unlike anyone since Magic and Embiid is a legit 7 footer with MASSIVE skill and athleticism. We have nothing like EITHER of those guys and Doncic doesn't have the size or athleticism of Simmons.

And most important... what I think people are missing in putting the team together is that they're looking at how to construct a team RIGHT NOW, when you should be looking to the future. This team isn't going to contend for a title for a couple years AT LEAST, so trying to follow the Warriors model is short-sighted, IMO.

Looking to the future when we actually will be able to contend, you have to look at the up and comers right now. The teams that will take over after the Rockets/Warriors start tailing off. And those teams are Utah, the Celtics and most imposing... the Sixers. That's what this team needs to look to the future to compete for a title. Utah and The Sixers have classically built teams size wize and the Celtics have athletes galore, if not great size (and probably the best coach in the biz). Hell, if you want to include the Raptors in there, that's a team with classic size as well. And if you look at the Pelicans, they have classic size as well. Those teams are all the future and those are the ones we're going to end up (hopefully) battling with moving forward. To do that with a team built around a bunch of swing-men (only one of which is a great athlete) seems like a recipe for disaster.

You dont need to play like them, and you dont need athletic freaks all over, albeit it does help.

Again, you need the archetype to build the system around. That player has a majority of these traits/skills:

Plus size for position, length, athleticism, can play and defend multiple positions, can create off the dribble/pass/shoot, has a high IQ.

The Suns have bits and pieces of that. Doncic fits that mold (skill level, elite vision and passing, shooting, size). He is obviously lacking in a few areas. However, you fit HIM (or Ayton) around like sized guys who can cover his deficiencies and you begin to look a lot like the teams we are discussing.

Im not here to defend Doncic, but im making the case why he fits what Bud wants to do, where the league is/going, and the archetype of player these top teams have. So while Doncic doesnt have the size or athleticism of Simmons, he does have the passing, vision, along with a good looking jumper to boot. Unlike Simmons, he can actually play off the ball.

Im not a Suns fan by any means, but if Bud becomes the coach, you will see these type of guys start popping up on the roster, but actually developing. Ayton would be my pick, but Doncic fits seamlessly for the system and style.

 

[BC867]

Im not a Suns fan by any means...

May I ask, whom are you a fan of?

 

[Mr. Boldin]

here's the problem with the above... in any business, when rebuilding, it's folly to look at the trend RIGHT NOW because by the time you rebuild, that trend will likely be over. When starting as low as we are, you need to look past the present and look to the future to see who's up and coming and what it will take to beat those teams... the Sixers, Utah, Boston, the Pelicans. Maybe even the tail-end of the Raptors. All those teams sans Boston have athleticism AND size. You draft Doncic and our big three has very little of both.

The trend is being able to create, pass, shoot, defend, especially with size. That has always been the formula. Doncic doesnt preclude the Suns from doing any of that. Its also why I prefer Ayton, who would be a monstar in Bud's system.

Just dont like coming in here and reading about how Doncic cant do this, cant do that. Lets look at what he can do first. The Suns were one of a handful of teams to ever finish dead last in offensive, defensive, and net rating over a season. Help is required all over the roster.

 

[Mr. Boldin]

May I ask, whom are you a fan of?

Im a huge NBA fan, have been a life long Clippers fan, and covered them for six years. Went to grad school and wrote my thesis on the NBA's development. Began writing, scouting, covering the league, studying the CBA, ect.

Ive been lucky enough to make some quality connections all over the league, and am as passionate about the NBA as I am anything else in life. Im not claiming anything I postis spoken word, and apologize if it comes off that way. Just trying to provide a fresh take on things. If some disagree, thats fine. Thats the best part!

 

[Hoop Head]

I know some may think it's the wrong way to view things but I don't care if our draft pick this year is a good defender. At this point we can't score as a team. We only have 3 guys capable of putting up 20+ points a night and the rest are lucky to give you 10 points, with Daniels being the only exception to that in regards to someone who is under contract for next season. Daniels isn't a sure thing but he will have a few games where he lights it up but shouldn't be counted on. Defense is something we can worry about once we have a team that can score 90+ points a game without exhausting our players. We can add defenders later, through free agency or the draft, but right now we need to focus on talent, period. If a prospect isn't a good defender we shouldn't look to the next guy available right away. Management needs to figure out if they'll give up that much more than they can add and if they're expected to be a guy who can score at will, like Doncic or more specifically Trae Young, then we should grab them while we can. We can add a strong big later to help balance the defense some and then look for 3 & D wings to round out the bench.

 

[Mainstreet]

I know some may think it's the wrong way to view things but I don't care if our draft pick this year is a good defender. At this point we can't score as a team. We only have 3 guys capable of putting up 20+ points a night and the rest are lucky to give you 10 points, with Daniels being the only exception to that in regards to someone who is under contract for next season. Daniels isn't a sure thing but he will have a few games where he lights it up but shouldn't be counted on. Defense is something we can worry about once we have a team that can score 90+ points a game without exhausting our players. We can add defenders later, through free agency or the draft, but right now we need to focus on talent, period. If a prospect isn't a good defender we shouldn't look to the next guy available right away. Management needs to figure out if they'll give up that much more than they can add and if they're expected to be a guy who can score at will, like Doncic or more specifically Trae Young, then we should grab them while we can. We can add a strong big later to help balance the defense some and then look for 3 & D wings to round out the bench.

The one thing the Suns need to add is another consistent scorer. Can't run before you can walk. It's still about putting the ball in the basket. I think a coach can get a team to play defense with good coaching. I think Ayton would provide both offense and eventually good defense for the Suns.

Bagley will be able to score and so will Young.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Im a huge NBA fan, have been a life long Clippers fan, and covered them for six years. Went to grad school and wrote my thesis on the NBA's development. Began writing, scouting, covering the league, studying the CBA, ect.

Ive been lucky enough to make some quality connections all over the league, and am as passionate about the NBA as I am anything else in life. Im not claiming anything I postis spoken word, and apologize if it comes off that way. Just trying to provide a fresh take on things. If some disagree, thats fine. Thats the best part!

Glad you’re posting. Always nice to have some diverse viewpoints.

 

[Mr. Boldin]

Well, we can forget about Doncic fitting in Bud's system in Phoenix...

 

[Cheesebeef]

I know some may think it's the wrong way to view things but I don't care if our draft pick this year is a good defender. At this point we can't score as a team. We only have 3 guys capable of putting up 20+ points a night and the rest are lucky to give you 10 points, with Daniels being the only exception to that in regards to someone who is under contract for next season. Daniels isn't a sure thing but he will have a few games where he lights it up but shouldn't be counted on. Defense is something we can worry about once we have a team that can score 90+ points a game without exhausting our players. We can add defenders later, through free agency or the draft, but right now we need to focus on talent, period. If a prospect isn't a good defender we shouldn't look to the next guy available right away. Management needs to figure out if they'll give up that much more than they can add and if they're expected to be a guy who can score at will, like Doncic or more specifically Trae Young, then we should grab them while we can. We can add a strong big later to help balance the defense some and then look for 3 & D wings to round out the bench.

I really can’t envision any scenario where Doncic is a guy who can “score at will.”

I don’t think even his biggest supporters would claim he’s got that potential.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Well, we can forget about Doncic fitting in Bud's system in Phoenix...

Why?

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Why?

Ugh hope rb withdrew his name. That screams something about the suns stunk to him.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Im a huge NBA fan, have been a life long Clippers fan, and covered them for six years. Went to grad school and wrote my thesis on the NBA's development. Began writing, scouting, covering the league, studying the CBA, ect.

Ive been lucky enough to make some quality connections all over the league, and am as passionate about the NBA as I am anything else in life. Im not claiming anything I postis spoken word, and apologize if it comes off that way. Just trying to provide a fresh take on things. If some disagree, thats fine. Thats the best part!

You don’t come off that way at all! You’re a welcomed new voice to the board.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Ugh hope rb withdrew his name. That screams something about the suns stunk to him.

I’ve said this for a while... but I’m not surprised if he didn’t want to come coach under a GM on the hot seat.

Most of the people who still support McD here pretty much give him next year to prove himself or it’s dunzo time. Well... why would any coach worth their skin risk going into a situation like that where they could be coaching under a new GM one year later? Isn’t that the EXACT situation Bud is in right now? He’s not the new GM’s guy. Putting yourself potentially in those crosshairs again doesn’t seem wise.

Now, that’s not to say the above IS what happened. But it’s going to be a real consideration any good coach is going to weigh coming to work under a GM who’s done nothing but fail thus far.

 

[Hoop Head]

Im a huge NBA fan, have been a life long Clippers fan, and covered them for six years. Went to grad school and wrote my thesis on the NBA's development. Began writing, scouting, covering the league, studying the CBA, ect.

Ive been lucky enough to make some quality connections all over the league, and am as passionate about the NBA as I am anything else in life. Im not claiming anything I postis spoken word, and apologize if it comes off that way. Just trying to provide a fresh take on things. If some disagree, thats fine. Thats the best part!

I've enjoyed reading your posts lately, it's nice to see a new voice in the Suns forum and since I don't venture into the D-Backs or Cards boards I haven't seen you around here before. You mention covering the Clippers, do you write regularly for any sites that you can post a link to? I'm not a Clipper fan but I'm an NBA fan in general and will read just about anything NBA related when I get downtime.

 

[Mr. Boldin]

I've enjoyed reading your posts lately, it's nice to see a new voice in the Suns forum and since I don't venture into the D-Backs or Cards boards I haven't seen you around here before. You mention covering the Clippers, do you write regularly for any sites that you can post a link to? I'm not a Clipper fan but I'm an NBA fan in general and will read just about anything NBA related when I get downtime.

I took a break from writing prior to last season. I worked at Bleacher Report for quite some time (yes, they paid me. Yes I actually had to apply, test, and provide writing samples to become a columnist, unlike the everyday fan who would submit articles). Not sure if my stuff is still up there and I havent checked.

Had some other ventures that came my way and swayed me into a different field. Now im not using either of my degrees in my field, just like the rest of the people I know.

 

[Hoop Head]

I really can’t envision any scenario where Doncic is a guy who can “score at will.”

I don’t think even his biggest supporters would claim he’s got that potential.

I don't think he will be able to score at will but I think he will be able to create offense easily, for himself or someone else. I doubt we'd have many shot clock violations with Doncic and Booker on the floor together. If a PG can't score on his own then you want him to be able to set someone up easily and I think Doncic will be able to do that. Because of his size he should be able to score somewhat easy because opponents will need to put their PG on either Doncic, Booker, or Jackson, if that's who we draft, and I doubt they'll put their PG on Booker. Give Booker 3-4 inches on his opponent and he'll be able to get off shots with ease. Doncic's size will allow him to get off easy shots also. I think he'll be more of a facilitator though and that would be better for the Suns right now.

I'm still not in favor of drafting Doncic but I'm becoming less concerned if we do select him. I prefer Ayton, Bagley, and Young ahead of him right now. I could see a lot of people being upset if the Suns reach for Young at #3 if Doncic is still on the board. Whether that would be a smart move is debatable but I think Young has less of a chance of being a bust. He's a better shooter than Doncic and there is no doubt about his position in the NBA. He does have good athleticism, decent size, and is really quick. He needs to bulk up a little bit but not a whole lot. He looks like he's about the same size as Curry right now and I'd rather he be a little bit bigger. At his current size I'd worry too much each time he gets hit hard and goes to the ground. I think most Warrior fans feel that way about Curry getting hit also. Some added muscle would help.

 

[pokerface]

I don't think he will be able to score at will but I think he will be able to create offense easily, for himself or someone else. I doubt we'd have many shot clock violations with Doncic and Booker on the floor together. If a PG can't score on his own then you want him to be able to set someone up easily and I think Doncic will be able to do that. Because of his size he should be able to score somewhat easy because opponents will need to put their PG on either Doncic, Booker, or Jackson, if that's who we draft, and I doubt they'll put their PG on Booker. Give Booker 3-4 inches on his opponent and he'll be able to get off shots with ease. Doncic's size will allow him to get off easy shots also. I think he'll be more of a facilitator though and that would be better for the Suns right now.

I'm still not in favor of drafting Doncic but I'm becoming less concerned if we do select him. I prefer Ayton, Bagley, and Young ahead of him right now. I could see a lot of people being upset if the Suns reach for Young at #3 if Doncic is still on the board. Whether that would be a smart move is debatable but I think Young has less of a chance of being a bust. He's a better shooter than Doncic and there is no doubt about his position in the NBA. He does have good athleticism, decent size, and is really quick. He needs to bulk up a little bit but not a whole lot. He looks like he's about the same size as Curry right now and I'd rather he be a little bit bigger. At his current size I'd worry too much each time he gets hit hard and goes to the ground. I think most Warrior fans feel that way about Curry getting hit also. Some added muscle would help.

I generally agree with what you are saying...

I think this is a hard draft in a good way. There is such an abundance of special players it's hard to zero in on one (except for Ayton). I just hope we get #1 pick and draft Ayton and not look back because he pretty much is the one player we have unified support for and not have regrets. Picks 2-4 can almost go in any direction...in any order.

 

[BC867]

I took a break from writing prior to last season. I worked at Bleacher Report for quite some time (yes, they paid me. Yes I actually had to apply, test, and provide writing samples to become a columnist, unlike the everyday fan who would submit articles). Not sure if my stuff is still up there and I havent checked.

Had some other ventures that came my way and swayed me into a different field. Now im not using either of my degrees in my field, just like the rest of the people I know.

Please don't misunderstand about my asking what your rooting perspective is when you said you're not a Suns fan. I didn't realize that you have a professional background.

I enjoy your posts.