Game Preparation

[PJ1]

I believe that Whis has a lot of control over who makes his Final 53, and plenty of input on who comes into camp. Someone, at some point, said that D'Anthony Batiste and D.J. Young were good enough to play games and win matchups successfully if they're needed in the lineup.

Whis has said many times that the team is always looking for ways to bring in help. He doesn't deserve 100% of the blame for the OL situation, but he shoulders some responsibility. As does Russ Grimm.

Some of the responsibility I can agree with. You are assuming Whiz was happy with Batiste and Young and I just don't know this. If I am an owner I am ripping my GM first for the lack of talent on this team.

 

[Crazy Canuck]

Yep, but none of that relates to preparation for games as was the allegation in this thread.

If you want to say the coaches don't recognize talent etc I'm in agreement, but the claim that they don't work hard (sans maybe Grimm) is not supported by anything but opinion.

Which is also supported by nothing more than anecdotal opinion.

 

[Crazy Canuck]

Good...the drinks are on me!

 

[cardpa]

Your post blamed the lack of talent squarely on the coaches. That is ridiculous. A GM and director of player personnel will have the final say as to who is on the team. Do the coaches have input? They certainly may but you have absolutely no idea how much and it is ludicrous to blame them for the lack of talent on this team.

It seems that your position is the coaches are without blame at all in regards to player selection and input to who makes the 53 player roster as well as the PS. If you think coaches have such marginal input on player personnel then why are they always the scapegoat when a team performs poorly? Shouldn't an owner be canning the GM and Director of player personnel since they are the ones deciding the makeup of the team?

This would be akin to a boss saying to his employee, hey we need to move this one ton boulder. Here is a pick and shovel, get it done by the end of the day.

As a coach you can't implement schemes and plans if you have little say on who your players are. If that would be the case then the GM and Dir of PP should be deciding what schemes to run and play makeup since they are picking the players.

 

[desertdawg]

I believe we really began to eat eachother after the third loss.

 

[PDXChris]

Which is also supported by nothing more than anecdotal opinion.

We do have exibit A on this one. Which is also the best post ever by Cards_Campos.

http://www.arizonasportsfans.com/vb...g-for-4-bruce-springsteen-tickets-140990.html

 

[Russ Smith]

I have a resolution about engaging with Mitch on these subjects. If you don't want to see baseless speculation, conjecture, and extrapolation, don't read his threads.

Yeah I wasn't attacking you I was just pointing out it's legit to say the coaches might have issues identifying talent. As Duckjake has said there are certain positions we just can't seem to draft or sign well.

But I think it's a complete guess that the staff isn't working hard to prepare the team based on nothing more than a dislike of the staff.

 

[Russ Smith]

Which is also supported by nothing more than anecdotal opinion.

True, I should have left that out it's entirely opinion.

 

[kerouac9]

Yeah I wasn't attacking you I was just pointing out it's legit to say the coaches might have issues identifying talent. As Duckjake has said there are certain positions we just can't seem to draft or sign well.

But I think it's a complete guess that the staff isn't working hard to prepare the team based on nothing more than a dislike of the staff.

When Mitch says that the staff has done "nothing" to aid Batiste and Massie, that's just completely false. You know that, I know that. Saying that we've counted the plays and that Massie and Batiste are getting tons of help isn't going to change Mitch's mind. Any more than reminding him that Warner had decided to retire before the Saints playoff game isn't going to change his mind that Warner only retired after the offensive line was helpless to protect him in that game.

This team just isn't talented enough right now--particularly on offense. The coaching staff has been calling plays to try and hide the fact that 6 or 8 of the starters on the offense aren't starting caliber--running short screens and quick dumpoffs, playing a ton of max protect with only 3 receivers out in patterns. Skelton can't execute that system.

 

[Duckjake]

He's right though he asked you for proof that the Cards don't prepare for games which is what you said. IN reply you gave him examples of things that go wrong in games or on the team in general, none of which had ANY evidence they were due to lack of prep.

When the team was winning 11 of 13 games were they preparing better and just got cocky and stopped? No. But as soon as we go on a losing streak you decide it's because the coaching staff isn't working hard enough at preparation.

We just don't have enough talent right now, it's my favorite analogy on this it's like a 4 x 100 meter relay team that has 2 guys who are just not sprinter fast. It doesn't matter what order you run the 4 in, those 2 slow guys are going to make you lose. It doesn't matter what offense we run and what plays we call the bad OL and QB play is causing us to lose games.

I just watched Mangini on ESPN talk about it he said when an offense can't score it puts so much pressure on the defense you start to see breakdowns where guys are trying to win the game. The offense does the same thing they start to press because they know they're not doing their job and it just snowballs. He said most coaches will tell you the key in that situation is the guys have to believe in what theyr'e doing and trust their teammates to do their jobs. We're not doing that. and it's not lack of prep, it's lack of talent.

I have to disagree with this. When the Cardinals were winning 11 of 13 games the offense was still terrible. Just read all the Skelton sucks posts that gave all the credit to special teams and defense and none to the offense or QB. The Cards won not because of any great preparation, which doesn't mean I think they aren't preparing, but because, just as is the case now, Ray Horton does an outstanding job of in game adjustments. What do I base this on? The Cards defense struggles on opening drives and plays much better in the 2nd half of games.

The current coaching staff, despite a few posts to the contrary, is probably the best we have ever had in making adjustments in game. What I don't see is their being prepared properly at the start for that week's opponent. The fact that they haven't scored more than a small handful of TDs in the 1st quarter in 41 games but threaten constantly late in games would tend to support that contention.

But of course we don't know anything for sure other than what we see so we can't really say they do or don't. But I think attacking Mitch constantly instead of disagreeing with him and listing why - at least you do the latter which is a breath of fresh air - goes against everything ASFN was intended to be.

 

[PJ1]

It seems that your position is the coaches are without blame at all in regards to player selection and input to who makes the 53 player roster as well as the PS. If you think coaches have such marginal input on player personnel then why are they always the scapegoat when a team performs poorly? Shouldn't an owner be canning the GM and Director of player personnel since they are the ones deciding the makeup of the team?

This would be akin to a boss saying to his employee, hey we need to move this one ton boulder. Here is a pick and shovel, get it done by the end of the day.

As a coach you can't implement schemes and plans if you have little say on who your players are. If that would be the case then the GM and Dir of PP should be deciding what schemes to run and play makeup since they are picking the players.

Quite often(not the Cardinals) teams will dismiss a GM for a teams poor performance. Yes, you are correct the coaches are often the scapegoat as you can't fire the team and the GM will not be the first to go. Same as in business. This does not make the coaches solely responsible for the teams lack of talent though. Do you honestly believe when top FA's become available Whiz says I don't want them? I am happy with Batiste and DJ Young?

 

[nashman]

So maybe it's hard to prove that the coaches do a piss poor job of game preparation. But I would simply argue the proof shows up week after week when this team gets worked over by teams like the rams, bills whom most of you would argue are worse teams. Poor game plans are NOT on the players for not executing! It's on this terrible coaching staff that simply keeps doing the same thing and expecting different results, it's really almost laughable to watch at this point! Just waiting to see who gets fired first as we keep losing week after week.

 

[Crazy Canuck]

So maybe it's hard to prove that the coaches do a piss poor job of game preparation. But I would simply argue the proof shows up week after week when this team gets worked over by teams like the rams, bills whom most of you would argue are worse teams. Poor game plans are NOT on the players for not executing! It's on this terrible coaching staff that simply keeps doing the same thing and expecting different results, it's really almost laughable to watch at this point! Just waiting to see who gets fired first as we keep losing week after week.

Slip me a copy of one of those poor game plans by this terrible coaching staff, so I can evaluate for myself.

 

[kerouac9]

So maybe it's hard to prove that the coaches do a piss poor job of game preparation. But I would simply argue the proof shows up week after week when this team gets worked over by teams like the rams, bills whom most of you would argue are worse teams. Poor game plans are NOT on the players for not executing! It's on this terrible coaching staff that simply keeps doing the same thing and expecting different results, it's really almost laughable to watch at this point! Just waiting to see who gets fired first as we keep losing week after week.

The Cards lost to the Bills by 3 in overtime. They lost to the Vikings by 7. Those are not "getting worked over." They're games that the Cards may have won had one or two plays gone a different way. Essentially, they are random results.

The Cards have one non-random win (vs. Philly) and three non-random losses (@ STL, vs. SF, @ GB). That's who we are. We're a solidly average team who is playing an incredibly difficult schedule this year.

 

[nashman]

It's easy Canuck watch any game from the last 2 seasons since they basically carbon copies from game to game. The better question would be find me a great game plan by this staff!

 

[PJ1]

So maybe it's hard to prove that the coaches do a piss poor job of game preparation. But I would simply argue the proof shows up week after week when this team gets worked over by teams like the rams, bills whom most of you would argue are worse teams. Poor game plans are NOT on the players for not executing! It's on this terrible coaching staff that simply keeps doing the same thing and expecting different results, it's really almost laughable to watch at this point! Just waiting to see who gets fired first as we keep losing week after week.

Ok. Agree the results on offense have been horrible. Which current NFL coach could put points on the board with our OL, QB and 3rd string RB?

 

[Russ Smith]

I have to disagree with this. When the Cardinals were winning 11 of 13 games the offense was still terrible. Just read all the Skelton sucks posts that gave all the credit to special teams and defense and none to the offense or QB. The Cards won not because of any great preparation, which doesn't mean I think they aren't preparing, but because, just as is the case now, Ray Horton does an outstanding job of in game adjustments. What do I base this on? The Cards defense struggles on opening drives and plays much better in the 2nd half of games.

The current coaching staff, despite a few posts to the contrary, is probably the best we have ever had in making adjustments in game. What I don't see is their being prepared properly at the start for that week's opponent. The fact that they haven't scored more than a small handful of TDs in the 1st quarter in 41 games but threaten constantly late in games would tend to support that contention.

But of course we don't know anything for sure other than what we see so we can't really say they do or don't. But I think attacking Mitch constantly instead of disagreeing with him and listing why - at least you do the latter which is a breath of fresh air - goes against everything ASFN was intended to be.

I don't think there's anything wrong with pointing out that his entire premise is based on his own opinion of what's going on at practices.

He's claiming there's no evidence the staff works as hard as Seattle and Russell Wilson do they just roll out the same blueprint game after game.

But if you actually look, we've been making changes all along, because we figured out if we didn't, all of our QB's would be dead by game 10. We may not agree the changes are working, but they're being made and with a purpose, to help the OL because they're just not good enough otherwise.

I don't know why Skelton starts so slowly but I don't think it's scheme, Kolb had a rating of 87 in the first quarter this year 77 last year, his % actually went down in the 2nd halves last year. I would have to look at the other guys but my suspicion is the first quarter stuff is a Skelton thing not a coaching thing. I think it just takes him awhile to settle down.

 

[Duckjake]

So maybe it's hard to prove that the coaches do a piss poor job of game preparation. But I would simply argue the proof shows up week after week when this team gets worked over by teams like the rams, bills whom most of you would argue are worse teams. Poor game plans are NOT on the players for not executing! It's on this terrible coaching staff that simply keeps doing the same thing and expecting different results, it's really almost laughable to watch at this point! Just waiting to see who gets fired first as we keep losing week after week.

Hard to argue with this when the Cards get off to a slow start week after week.

 

[PJ1]

And there is a reason why we get no respect in the NFL. Why pundits and experts laugh at us usually. It is because perception is 98% of how some views you. You guys base your opinions on me by this forum. So be it....I coach a nationally ranked girls 8th grade AAU team...I have a daughter and I am a forman for a large construction company. But when I am on here....the kid in me from when I use to not sleep at night on Saturdays just to see if the 4-11 Cardinals could beat Dallas. It is what it is...But the Cardinals are not good...and there is no sugar coating it...it is on the coach to fix it.

Do you also drive a Dodge Stratus?

 

[kerouac9]

Do you also drive a Dodge Stratus?

Did you stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night?

 

[PJ1]

Did you stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night?

So much fun when we are losing.

 

[Duckjake]

So much fun when we are losing.

That's why it's so much fun being a Cardinal fan. Because they are always losing.

 

[cardpa]

Ok. Agree the results on offense have been horrible. Which current NFL coach could put points on the board with our OL, QB and 3rd string RB?

PJ thank you, this helps the point I am trying to make, no one could make this team go with what we currently have. The real question is how and why did this team get to this point in the first place. Why weren't competent backups gotten long before the team was in dire straits? Batiste and Young have been on this team for what 2-3 years now and and apparently in the coaches minds they were competent backups when all along they were dead weight turnstiles.

Heap has been a waste of a roster spot, and the list goes on and on. I hope we can at least agree that the coaches for the most part evaluate the talent and the final makeup of the roster by the time pre-season is over. If they don't why are they even getting paid since they are with them day in and day out every day. If they are coaching them and not the ones who have the most say in who goes and who stays then this team is pretty f'd up.

We have been saying this team has marginal talent for some time now so why does it not get better? My theory is if you have a marginal collection of players then you also have a marginal coaching and/or front office staff because no one sets a standard of excellence or their idea of excellence is marginal.

 

[Cards_Campos]

Ok..You are right to say we cannot prove that Whiz is bad at preparing our team. But how does anyone explain that we gave up 24 sacks in 3 games? Gave up 9 sacks to St Louis and 5 to Buffalo? They recorded 25% of their total sacks against us. Yes the OL sucks...but it has sucked for the last 4 years...yet nothing seems to change. The play calling is abysmal at best. And yet it never seems to change.

I guess we will all agree to disagree...but the Cardinals either need 2 stud OL and a stud QB or new coaches to fix and correct what we have.

John Fox is a great coach. He was 1-4 and then decided to change it all last year....and he adjusted and won. Now he has Manning...readjusted and is winning again. You cant just use your system and expect because it worked once it will always work. This the NFL...which stands Not For Long....You need to constantly adjust and grow. Whiz in my opinion..and based on the last 3 years,,,doesn't do that.

 

[WildBB]

John Fox is a great coach. He was 1-4 and then decided to change it all last year....and he adjusted and won. Now he has Manning...readjusted and is winning again. You cant just use your system and expect because it worked once it will always work. This the NFL...which stands Not For Long....You need to constantly adjust and grow. Whiz in my opinion..and based on the last 3 years,,,doesn't do that.

Well you don't make it to the head coaching spot on an NFL team without being able to make adjustments, let alone do it for six yrs. now.

Some of the issues many of us have with the coaches is that they are too slow to adjust in actual games.

Injuries as stated have played a major role in what the O is able to accomplish this season.

On the D side, we just need to tackle more consistently and create more turnovers which the coaches emphasized during the pre-season. And don't give up the long pass plays.