Game Preparation

[Crazy Canuck]

Where you come from---that's called the "penalty box"!

Yup!... but, this one would have bars...

 

[Mitch]

Yup!... but, this one would have bars...

Good...the drinks are on me!

 

[Duckjake]

Agreed, funny stuff.

Now if only we could figure out how to make this Cards team better...hmmm

Maybe they should quit playing farmville and switch to draw something. Then they could at least 'draw' out plays and formations??

We've already figured out how to make the Cardinals better. Either fire Russ Grimm and replace him with someone like Todd Washington of the Ravens or if they want to save face hire an "Assistant" Offensive line coach and put Russ in charge of iPad supervision.

 

[JeffGollin]

Isn't this what an argument is, Jeff?

Presenting a case?

I tried to provide all kinds of support and evidence (facts) for you in my response and you didn't even address it---

This is my beef with your beef.

Sorry. I didn't have time to wade thru your very long and detailed commentary to dissect it point by point.

So I skimmed it and concluded that your peace was long on theory and conjecture and short on hard facts to support your argument that, compared to other teams, the Cards and their players didn't work as hard at game prep.

ineffective game prep? OK, based on outcomes I can buy into that?

But lack of game prep effort? Sorry, you can't know that unless you're with the team 24/7 or can quote named sources who are.

 

[Mitch]

Sorry. I didn't have time to wade thru your very long and detailed commentary to dissect it point by point.

So I skimmed it and concluded that your peace was long on theory and conjecture and short on hard facts to support your argument that, compared to other teams, the Cards and their players didn't work as hard at game prep.

ineffective game prep? OK, based on outcomes I can buy into that?

But lack of game prep effort? Sorry, you can't know that unless you're with the team 24/7 or can quote named sources who are.

Since you are quick to condemn and not so quick to read a response I took the effort to put together for you---I will not make that mistake again.

 

[WildBB]

What the 49ers, Seahawks and Rams have that the Cardinals don't:

1. Running games.
2. QBs they are confident in.
3. Defenses that can pressure with 4 rushers.
4. Defenses that are stouter versus the run.
5. Kicking games that can make the difference.
6. FO's that try to make the right personnel fits.

The Cardinals' defense---as much as TV commentators are calling this defense "very good"---it's actually a defense that relies more on smoke and mirrors than just plain, good old defensive play.

6. William Gay---hasn't been the physical kind of CB/NB the Cardinals had with Richard Marshall, whom Horton said was the defensive MVP last year and the FO said no we are not going to pay.

That's more than half the starters right there---

Did you see that 9er , Ram game on Sunday. Man they were laying the wood down. 6 fumbles in that game. They were bringing it. And you know Seattle has a really good D.

Jeff Fisher has made the division that much harder. We're going to struggle to keep pace.

I've been pretty disappointed in the D's inability to stop opening drives and let teams get up on us early. They have a tough time controlling the LOS and tend to give up a few big plays a game. And some are looking their age out there after a fast start. But they are also out there for prolonged periods.

I'd be surprised if in any of the last 6 games we came close to the other team in TOP (time of possession). Some of that is the ineffectiveness of the ground game, but this team was supposed to be overcoming depth issues as well. We see how that's worked out.

Wiz really needs to roll some young blood out there in the 2nd half and a few vets (particularly Wells) really need to step it up and have a GREAT 2nd half of the season. Then we can better judge the overall efforts - from everyone down the line.

 

[WildBB]

Everything we post as fans is conjecture and opinions. Truth be said everything posted in this thread probbaly falls somewhere in the middle.

For the most part. Many like to give some stats that back their theories, but it's not always necessary, nor do they always back up arguments correctly.

This is a discussion board and most everything is up for debate. We all have our own prejudices and preferences. As long as you undoubtedly believe what your saying; it's worth discussing. I never have a problem with Mitch's posts because of that.

I'll disagree with some of the details but overall I find most of what he's talking about not only valid but educational. Stuff I hadn't really thought of in depth. That's a big reason this board is what it is - because we don't have all the answers. Nobody does. So we debate. There is always room for insights and aside from Smel different perspectives. j/k Smel!

 

[JeffGollin]

Since you are quick to condemn and not so quick to read a response I took the effort to put together for you---I will not make that mistake again.

Well that was pretty vicious. Have a nice day.

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

For all of you clamoring about a predictable offense, Vince Lombardi had 17 plays in his offensive playbook. I'm guessing the defenses knew what was coming an were well prepared.

Execution of the plays and talent probably has something to do with the outcomes.

 

[Duckjake]

Did you see that 9er , Ram game on Sunday. Man they were laying the wood down. 6 fumbles in that game. They were bringing it. And you know Seattle has a really good D.

Jeff Fisher has made the division that much harder. We're going to struggle to keep pace.

I've been pretty disappointed in the D's inability to stop opening drives and let teams get up on us early. They have a tough time controlling the LOS and tend to give up a few big plays a game. And some are looking their age out there after a fast start. But they are also out there for prolonged periods.

I'd be surprised if in any of the last 6 games we came close to the other team in TOP (time of possession). Some of that is the ineffectiveness of the ground game, but this team was supposed to be overcoming depth issues as well. We see how that's worked out.

Wiz really needs to roll some young blood out there in the 2nd half and a few vets (particularly Wells) really need to step it up and have a GREAT 2nd half of the season. Then we can better judge the overall efforts - from everyone down the line.

Very good summation of our defense. Watching the Bears and Texans knock the snot out of each other made me think how seldom our guys do that.

Our defense isn't that good 20 to 20. Probably because they aren't tough against the run. They were making things work by being tough in the red zone and forcing FGs and our opponents were generous enough to miss several of them or let us block them. I think part of it is the 2-4-5. The Cards go back to their bigger 3-4 base inside the 20 and have better results.

I don't know what to say about the opening drives but maybe it's they can't stop anyone inside the red zone or out until Horton has time to figure out what the opposing offense is doing and adjust. Teams don't always do what they did in previous weeks when they play you so film study alone can't do it.

As for the big plays I think it is because our safeties aren't very good anymore which allows the deep pass and our corners are very weak at tackling which allows the long runs. Wilson is 33 and has been playing hurt and Rhodes is 30. Their age may be showing but deep cover seems to break down a lot when you look at how well the Cards contain passing offenses overall. It just seems to me that other teams Corners hit better than ours do. Of course some of that is that I look at the Cards with a more critical eye. Oh yeah, it also seems like receivers make some of the most amazing catches against us.

Time on the field is likely not an issue. The Cards haven't been way behind in that area much this season. The Cards had 66 plays to Green Bays 70 and AZ had 65 plays to SF's 52. But I haven't looked to see if there is a bigger disparity in the first half of games.

 

[Duckjake]

For all of you clamoring about a predictable offense, Vince Lombardi had 17 plays in his offensive playbook. I'm guessing the defenses knew what was coming an were well prepared.

Execution of the plays and talent probably has something to do with the outcomes.

Vince Lombardi's teams didn't have to play against teams with 17 full time coaches with HD quality film to study and huge, fast, players who work on their game year round.

Those NFL players in those days worked part time and smoked cigarettes on the sidelines.

 

[Cards_Campos]

Looks like a lot of assumptions and opinions to me.

Proof would saying Mike Shanahan has given up on the season and then post this quote, "now you’re playing to see who, obviously, is going to be on your football team for years to come. Now we get a chance to evaluate players and see where we’re at"

But yours is opinion based on an amateur eye with above average writing skills.

Wow!...Really?!?! This is almost comical....This reminds me of the Leinart and Warner arguments...and every Leinart supporter saying....Mitch and I and some others were loons. How can ANYONE watch this team..and see anything positive?!?! On offense?!?! We gave up 24 sacks in 3 games!!!!!!!!! and you would think after giving up 9 on thursday night football...we would do something to fix it....well we did...we gave up 8!!!!!The next week. How can anyone watch us run a 170lb back up the mniddle on short yardage...and for the last 2 years...we never ran Beanie on those same plays!?!?!

Opinions?@?!? Yes if you want to split hairs...but man...what team are you guys watching?!?!

 

[PDXChris]

Wow!...Really?!?! This is almost comical....This reminds me of the Leinart and Warner arguments...and every Leinart supporter saying....Mitch and I and some others were loons. How can ANYONE watch this team..and see anything positive?!?! On offense?!?! We gave up 24 sacks in 3 games!!!!!!!!! and you would think after giving up 9 on thursday night football...we would do something to fix it....well we did...we gave up 8!!!!!The next week. How can anyone watch us run a 170lb back up the mniddle on short yardage...and for the last 2 years...we never ran Beanie on those same plays!?!?!

Opinions?@?!? Yes if you want to split hairs...but man...what team are you guys watching?!?!

You know is comical, the FACT that you only post when the Cardinals are struggling so you can gloat. Seems to me that based on that FACT, you are rooting for this team to lose just to be right. I will also throw Mitch in there since his dairy entries triple on losing weeks, but that two to three days for one entry on winning weeks.

I said it, I said you and Mitch only seeing this team lose just to be right. That is based on the FACT of your posting habits. At least Mitch is a nice guy with writing skills that are entertaining. As for you, go troll somewhere else.

 

[Chopper0080]

You want proof of coaching and FO ineptness, Jeff---try this, for example:

Your HOF QB who brought you to the Super Bowl and then to the second round of the playoffs the next year opts out of the second year of his contract because: (a) he says the game isn't fun anymore; and (b) the concussion he incurred scared him and his wife---

Last time I checked, Kurt Warner took big hits because Kurt Warner chose to hold onto the ball to try and make big plays down the field. It is not the coaches fault when the QB holds onto the ball.

Where did the organization and the coaches fail Kurt Warner? They didn't do all they could to protect him. In fact, with as shaky an offensive line as he played behind during the Super Bowl year, they drafted a RB in the first round instead of a tackle or guard---then drafted Cody Brown, Rashad Johnson and Greg Toler before taking a guard in Round 5 in Herman Johnson.

Really? You blame the front office for trying to address the defense after that very defense let the Steelers drive the length of the field at the end of the Super Bowl to win the biggest game in franchise history?

As you and everyone knows, the coaches in CKW's system do not choose to offer any help for the tackles---

This is flat out wrong. The Cardinals do chip their tackles when they keep a back in, but they choose to spread the field out because their RBs and line struggle to pick up the blitzing linebacker. Facts are a spread out defense makes it EASIER for a QB to identify when rushers are coming from. It is the QBs job to manage this.

It's not speculation or theorizing to arrive at the conclusion that CKW's system is about as QB unfriendly as there is the NFL---how the line is built, how it is coached and how the system is run.

How is an offense that is tailored to his QBs unfriendly? Is it difficult to learn? Maybe. Does Whis do everything he can to give his QBs the ability to determine where the rush is coming from? Yes. Does the Cardinals organization invest in pass catching weapons for it's QBs? Yes, to the tune of two first round WRs, two 3rd round WRs, and a 3rd round TE.

QBs in this system are going to take a vicious pounding.

Warner certainly took his.

Since then---even---

The situation has gotten worse---

The tackles can't pass protect---and now the guards and center aren't holding up.

Agreed, but blame the front office. It is not a coaching issue when guys just can't play and win one on one matchups.

Even in a pre-season game the coaches watched on and did nothing as Kamerion Wimbley blew past D.J. Young play after play after play and got big hits each time on the team's top two QBs: Skelton and Kolb. It's amazing both didn't go down right then and there.

Batiste had been doing it for over 8 games...

So, you are blaming the organization for giving the OT you dubbed as the next big thing a legit shot over 8 games?

And yet nothing...until quarter 2 of Game 9.

No moves, no trades, no substitutions...almost never any chipping....and on the rare occasions where the do chip the TEs either whiff or throw a lame arm at the shoulder. The technique is so bad it's as if it has never been taught.

Again, execution is on the players, not on the coaches. You can't blame the coaches for a players missed block. All they can do is put the player in the right position, which you are saying they do. Oh, and it is the NFL. If the players need teaching on how to block, they wouldn't be here.

When we were playing the Vikings---the FOX crew kept saying how the Vikings coaches were expecting to give rookie LT Matt Kalil some help on the edge---seeing as he was a rookie and all---and that the coaches were pleased to see that he hadn't needed a great deal of help thus far.

We have Batiste and Massie at tackles---did we ever hear that from CKW? No because there was no concerted or determined effort to give them help.

If you watched that game, we helped out Batiste and Massie most of the game.

What QB in his right mind would ever want to come here?

Good preparation would mean that we would see some "max protection" plays, at the very least. Anyone seen a max protection play from CKW ever?

This general disregard for the players' health goes well BEYOND the QB---

Why is Larry Fitzgerald playing late into meaningless blowout losses?

I doubt you could pull Fitz off the field, and he would prbably respect Whis less if he did.

How about when CKW kept Boldin in versus GB and Leinart airmailed a pass and Boldin got hurt---in a totally meaningless game with the playoffs starting the next week. Boldin couldn't play the next week....that was AFTER the horrendous Boldin fractured face incident late in a meaningless blowout loss in NY.

It's the NFL, injuries happen. You can't play not to get hurt.

How about running Beanie Wells ad nausuem deep into the second halfs of the pre-season games two years ago...when he was nursing a bad knee no less?

Is that enough proof?

One of the great things about Warner which often goes by unsaid---he NEVER wanted to hang one of his WRs out to dry. The Boldin situation in NY scared the hell out of Warner because he felt it was his fault.

Pure speculation.

How about the coach?

My thoughts on this ridiculous post in red.

 

[Cards_Campos]

You know is comical, the FACT that you only post when the Cardinals are struggling so you can gloat. Seems to me that based on that FACT, you are rooting for this team to lose just to be right. I will also throw Mitch in there since his dairy entries triple on losing weeks, but that two to three days for one entry on winning weeks.

I said it, I said you and Mitch only seeing this team lose just to be right. That is based on the FACT of your posting habits. At least Mitch is a nice guy with writing skills that are entertaining. As for you, go troll somewhere else.

Yea...well..I guess since we lose about 75% of the time it must seem that way. And since I dont like Whiz...when we win..It usually isnt because of Whiz. So dislike me all you want...But I SAID and TOLD everyone we would with Warner...and we did....FIre Whiz and we will win AGAIN.

And for the fact I dont post when we win...I made a video honoring the Cardinals when we went to the Super Bowl. I live in Tennessee and many people here know how much I like the Cardinals. If you dont get that...No big deal...Since 90% of the board Loves Whiz...it doesn't surprise me.

 

[Cards_Campos]

And there is a reason why we get no respect in the NFL. Why pundits and experts laugh at us usually. It is because perception is 98% of how some views you. You guys base your opinions on me by this forum. So be it....I coach a nationally ranked girls 8th grade AAU team...I have a daughter and I am a forman for a large construction company. But when I am on here....the kid in me from when I use to not sleep at night on Saturdays just to see if the 4-11 Cardinals could beat Dallas. It is what it is...But the Cardinals are not good...and there is no sugar coating it...it is on the coach to fix it.

 

[cardpa]

I still believe most of this still falls on the coaches and the decisions they make. Young and Batiste are decisions the coaches made. They decided they were NFL quality linemen. They decided they were capable of playing at a level that is required in the NFL. Any other team would have released these two clowns after the performances they gave over the season.

Most teams would have pulled who they had on the practice squad or found a FA or traded for someone. The coaches on this team did none of these things. We also need to remember that they decided who was placed on the practice squad. Wait the practice player guys were also decisions made by the coaches. If they weren't good enough to make the active roster then how would they ever replace Batiste or Young?

All 53 players and PS are coaching decisions. Either the coaches have no clue on how to judge talent or are living a life of fantasy that they can turn turds to gold simply by polishing them. Proof is in how these guys played and if the coaches think these guys are okay and playing up to a NFL standard then there is a problem with the coaches.

Does anyone really believe that Young or Batiste would still be on the active roster of another team? Does anyone believe that Heap would still be on another team when he can't stay healthy enough to play especially at his age. Half the teams in the NFL would have let go of Wilson too. He can't do the job he was capable of doing 2-3 years ago. They would have said time to find someone younger and more capable in that position. You would even have to question if Wells or Williams would be hanging on to a roster spot for many teams. Same can be said for Doucet.

College and Snyder weren't allowed to go to FA because they were such great players. Those teams found they could replace them with better players or at the very least similar players who cost less. If they were so good there would have been a attempt by their former teams to keep them since good linemen are hard to find.

This entire roster is a collection of players who have been chosen by the coaching staff. If the players were not executing the block or the scheme in the pre-season, and were not executing it early in the season and are not executing it now this far into the season why in the world would you think they are going to execute going forward yet the coaching staff just keeps on running them out there doing the same thing and expecting different results.

If any cliche fits this team it's "Keep on doing the same thing and expecting different results" this is it. This is on the coaching staff. Their job is to evaluate, adjust to what the team (players) are capable of doing and modify what the scheme is based on that and as you go forward adjust again and again as necessary. They are also suppose to adjust as the game is being played and tweak things to compensate for what the other team is doing.

When you watch the Cardinals play and you compare what they are doing from one game to the next you really don't see any of this happening. What you do see is a lot of the same thing happening from one game to the next.

 

[Russ Smith]

Since you are quick to condemn and not so quick to read a response I took the effort to put together for you---I will not make that mistake again.

He's right though he asked you for proof that the Cards don't prepare for games which is what you said. IN reply you gave him examples of things that go wrong in games or on the team in general, none of which had ANY evidence they were due to lack of prep.

When the team was winning 11 of 13 games were they preparing better and just got cocky and stopped? No. But as soon as we go on a losing streak you decide it's because the coaching staff isn't working hard enough at preparation.

We just don't have enough talent right now, it's my favorite analogy on this it's like a 4 x 100 meter relay team that has 2 guys who are just not sprinter fast. It doesn't matter what order you run the 4 in, those 2 slow guys are going to make you lose. It doesn't matter what offense we run and what plays we call the bad OL and QB play is causing us to lose games.

I just watched Mangini on ESPN talk about it he said when an offense can't score it puts so much pressure on the defense you start to see breakdowns where guys are trying to win the game. The offense does the same thing they start to press because they know they're not doing their job and it just snowballs. He said most coaches will tell you the key in that situation is the guys have to believe in what theyr'e doing and trust their teammates to do their jobs. We're not doing that. and it's not lack of prep, it's lack of talent.

 

[PJ1]

Most teams would have pulled who they had on the practice squad or found a FA or traded for someone. The coaches on this team did none of these things. We also need to remember that they decided who was placed on the practice squad. Wait the practice player guys were also decisions made by the coaches. If they weren't good enough to make the active roster then how would they ever replace Batiste or Young?

How is this on the coaches? They coach the players they are given. Do you believe the coaches sign free agents and make trades?

 

[cardpa]

How is this on the coaches? They coach the players they are given. Do you believe the coaches sign free agents and make trades?

They certainly have input on who to sign and trades. Do you really think the front office goes off by itself and gets players they think will help the team without any input from the coaching staff???? If they do then this team is in bigger trouble than anyone thought.

 

[kerouac9]

How is this on the coaches? They coach the players they are given. Do you believe the coaches sign free agents and make trades?

I believe that Whis has a lot of control over who makes his Final 53, and plenty of input on who comes into camp. Someone, at some point, said that D'Anthony Batiste and D.J. Young were good enough to play games and win matchups successfully if they're needed in the lineup.

Whis has said many times that the team is always looking for ways to bring in help. He doesn't deserve 100% of the blame for the OL situation, but he shoulders some responsibility. As does Russ Grimm.

 

[Russ Smith]

I believe that Whis has a lot of control over who makes his Final 53, and plenty of input on who comes into camp. Someone, at some point, said that D'Anthony Batiste and D.J. Young were good enough to play games and win matchups successfully if they're needed in the lineup.

Whis has said many times that the team is always looking for ways to bring in help. He doesn't deserve 100% of the blame for the OL situation, but he shoulders some responsibility. As does Russ Grimm.

Yep, but none of that relates to preparation for games as was the allegation in this thread.

If you want to say the coaches don't recognize talent etc I'm in agreement, but the claim that they don't work hard(sans maybe Grimm) is not supported by anything but opinion.

 

[PJ1]

They certainly have input on who to sign and trades. Do you really think the front office goes off by itself and gets players they think will help the team without any input from the coaching staff???? If they do then this team is in bigger trouble than anyone thought.

Your post blamed the lack of talent squarely on the coaches. That is ridiculous. A GM and director of player personnel will have the final say as to who is on the team. Do the coaches have input? They certainly may but you have absolutely no idea how much and it is ludicrous to blame them for the lack of talent on this team.

 

[kerouac9]

Yep, but none of that relates to preparation for games as was the allegation in this thread.

If you want to say the coaches don't recognize talent etc I'm in agreement, but the claim that they don't work hard(sans maybe Grimm) is not supported by anything but opinion.

I have a resolution about engaging with Mitch on these subjects. If you don't want to see baseless speculation, conjecture, and extrapolation, don't read his threads.

 

[Mulli]

I have a resolution about engaging with Mitch on these subjects. If you don't want to see baseless speculation, conjecture, and extrapolation, don't read his threads.

I would say the facts support this.