Gandy still on Cards' radar .. Whiz names Ross starter at LT ..

[BACH]

Yes, he was a run- and pass-blocking liability in Pitts' 15-1 season. He only made the starting lineup due to inury, and they didn't cry when he left. In fact, they won the Super Bowl after they left.

There's no question that Oliver Ross was the weak link on that offensive line during the Steelers' 15-1 season. Maybe he wasn't solely responsible for the fact that the Cards couldn't run the ball in 2005, but old grades like this one don't really seem to give a lot of promise to what we'll see from him at the more difficult LT position:



Or this one:



Or this one:



This one's particularly evocative:



Don't worry, guys. This is all going to get worked out because we have Russ Grimm here. Move along.

This argumentation does't hold water. First, the Steelers weak link that season was RG Vincent - not Ross.

Second. If Ross was so terrible as you claim why did he net a $3.5M a year deal here? You spend a lot of time bashing Graves for being cheap - Are you now saying that he spend $18M on a player that received no interest on the market? Ross was very, very solid for the Steelers, and the CArdinals were bidding with the Saints and Bears for his services, because he was a good player. That's a fact!

You can argue that he hasn't panned out here, but it's simply twisting the truth, when saying that he was terrible with the Steelers and everyone knew that he wouldn't succeed here.

 

[Garthshort]

Meet and Greet

Daytriper, nice post and I hope you're right.

 

[Harry]

For starters Ross isn’t the player he once was. He’ll be 33 shortly after the start of the season and while some tackles play longer that’s typically the witching hour when most of them turn back into pumpkins. His footwork has declined markedly and he has lost at least half a step, which makes him extremely vulnerable to speed rushers. I suspect this decision is more a reflection of the new coaches’ history with Ross and the state of the roster, rather than resulting from a review of last season’s game films. Of course it’s also possible the whole thing is some silly attempt at pre-draft misdirection.

Assuming this is all real, there are two other reasons I believe this concept to be faulty. First the thinking is that Ross will be in front of the left-handed Leinart, so Leinart won’t be caught off guard when a rusher eludes Ross. The problem is that most NFL quarterbacks are right-handed, so most defenses would have their best pass rusher facing Ross. Those guys will be much harder to handle than the ones Ross has seen on the right side. It’s true some teams have speed on the right and others move their rushers from side-to-side, but in most instances Ross will be overmatched. Leinart will be exhausted before quarter on ends, if not carried off the field.

The second piece of misjudgment is that the Cards with more commitment to the run can use play action to slow the rush. The Cards even with their best rushing days did not have enough credibility as a running team to make play action work. Simply offering a stronger commitment to the run will not be enough. To run and especially to run up the middle or to the left side will take better linemen. Ross is part of the problem not part of the solution.

 

[lobo]

I like to do what Skorp keeps talking about when it comes to players, trust what I see.

That is the one drawback to the new stadium as we had to give up our 7th row seats where we could really see and interact with the players.

Thats why its so hard to judge the draft. Just haven't seen enough of the guys actually playing football other than highlight vids.

The issue is twisting the truth for the convenience of the writer. Do we not see enough of this outside of our toy department on a daily basis? Yeah, I totally agree based on your own observation or legit research that is more than enough. I am an amateur, albeit I know how to watch a football game and what to look for. I also know that KW and his staff know a whole lot more than I do. In their opinion if Ross is worth a second or third look, let it happen. If he is not the answer rest assured he won't be the starting LT.

 

[Stout]

For starters Ross isn’t the player he once was. He’ll be 33 shortly after the start of the season and while some tackles play longer that’s typically the witching hour when most of them turn back into pumpkins. His footwork has declined markedly and he has lost at least half a step, which makes him extremely vulnerable to speed rushers. I suspect this decision is more a reflection of the new coaches’ history with Ross and the state of the roster, rather than resulting from a review of last season’s game films. Of course it’s also possible the whole thing is some silly attempt at pre-draft misdirection.

Assuming this is all real, there are two other reasons I believe this concept to be faulty. First the thinking is that Ross will be in front of the left-handed Leinart, so Leinart won’t be caught off guard when a rusher eludes Ross. The problem is that most NFL quarterbacks are right-handed, so most defenses would have their best pass rusher facing Ross. Those guys will be much harder to handle than the ones Ross has seen on the right side. It’s true some teams have speed on the right and others move their rushers from side-to-side, but in most instances Ross will be overmatched. Leinart will be exhausted before quarter on ends, if not carried off the field.

The second piece of misjudgment is that the Cards with more commitment to the run can use play action to slow the rush. The Cards even with their best rushing days did not have enough credibility as a running team to make play action work. Simply offering a stronger commitment to the run will not be enough. To run and especially to run up the middle or to the left side will take better linemen. Ross is part of the problem not part of the solution.

Dang, you're good, Harry. Well said!

 

[Duckjake]

I also know that KW and his staff know a whole lot more than I do.

For now. As soon as they are fired they'll be a bunch of idiots who didn't know what they were doing.

As for trusting in the coaching staff to make the right decision on the offensive line, why did it take two coaching staffs and 2.5 years to figure out that Reggie Wells was a liability at guard but maybe a decent right tackle?

 

[kerouac9]

Second. If Ross was so terrible as you claim why did he net a $3.5M a year deal here? You spend a lot of time bashing Graves for being cheap - Are you now saying that he spend $18M on a player that received no interest on the market? Ross was very, very solid for the Steelers, and the CArdinals were bidding with the Saints and Bears for his services, because he was a good player. That's a fact!

You can argue that he hasn't panned out here, but it's simply twisting the truth, when saying that he was terrible with the Steelers and everyone knew that he wouldn't succeed here.

I never bash Graves for being cheap. I bash Graves for being stupid and shortsighted. Signing Oliver Ross after one middling season fits perfectly into that schema.

And, yes, Oliver Ross received virtually no interest in the open market, and was not considered a top free agent at the time. There were plenty of doubters about whether he'd be successful here (including, notably, Ross himself, who was giving quotes to the Arizona Republic during training camp that he wasn't going to be a savior), but we gave Denny (and by association Rod, I suppose) the benefit of the doubt because he hit a grand slam on Bertrand Berry the year before.

If you look back at the thread when he was signed, you'll see that no one knew much about him when he was signed (in fact, Joe wanted him to talk with Kendrick Vincent, whom you claim was the weak link on the line), but were relieved that Anthony Clement's tenure with the team was over. Also, there was the same nonsense about "attitude" and "mean streak" that we hear whenever we sign a free agent O-lineman. It's actually all the same things that we said about Al Johnson. Gives you a warm feeling inside, doesn't it?

In fact, here's exactly what I had to say about Ross when we signed him as the 11th-rated guard in free agency.

 

[BullheadCardFan]

The second piece of misjudgment is that the Cards with more commitment to the run can use play action to slow the rush. The Cards even with their best rushing days did not have enough credibility as a running team to make play action work. Simply offering a stronger commitment to the run will not be enough. To run and especially to run up the middle or to the left side will take better linemen. Ross is part of the problem not part of the solution.

I totally agree .. I am a strong advocate of play action .. but its very difficult to play action when you have no running game thats a threat ...

And Ross is part of the problem ... Ross would entirely responsible for ending Matts career .. how can Grimm and Whiz even mentions a scenario like this .. ??? Matt must be cringing already ...

 

[kerouac9]

This argumentation does't hold water. First, the Steelers weak link that season was RG Vincent - not Ross.

What is the basis for this assertion? According to STATS, Inc, in 2004 Kendrick Vincent accounted for 2 penalties for the Steelers (both holding) and 1/2 of a sack (for one yard). That's in 16 games, all of them starts.

In that same season, Ross committed 6 penalties (3 false start, 2 holding) and allowed 7 sacks for over 40 yards in lost yardage.

Now, either you're outright lying out of homerism for the guy that happens to be on the Cards roster, or you had no idea what you were talking about. Either way, you couldn't be more wrong in any possible way than you were with this assessment.

 

[BigRedArk]

I never bash Graves for being cheap. I bash Graves for being stupid and shortsighted. Signing Oliver Ross after one middling season fits perfectly into that schema.

I agree with shortsighted but not stupid. I would say more like incompetent to be fair. He just seems incapable of being able to judge NFL talent for the most part and to ultimately put a winning team on the field.

 

[MigratingOsprey]

Arizona will move offensive tackle Oliver Ross from the right side, which he has played virtually his entire career, to the left side. The goal: Improved protection for second-year quarterback Matt Leinart, a southpaw. "With Matt at quarterback, the left side becomes the blindside, and we just think Oliver is our best option there right now," Cardinals first-year coach Ken Whisenhunt said.

http://insider.espn.go.com/nfl/insider/columns/story?columnist=pasquarelli_len&id=2820156

I just saw this on the seahawks site I go to - kind of a crazy quote because a lefty will have their back to the right of the OL

 

[kerouac9]

I agree with shortsighted but not stupid. I would say more like incompetent to be fair. He just seems incapable of being able to judge NFL talent for the most part and to ultimately put a winning team on the field.

I don't know. I think that we're basically parsing out the same issue and splitting hairs between "stupidity" and "incompetence."

If it were just bad talent decisions, that would be one thing. But Rod Graves has continually mis-read the NFL landscape, whether it's which DL would slide to 18th overall, or the quality of June 1 cuts, or the market for free agents after the new collective bargaining agreement. Many people here have been able to suggest better decisions than Graves has made in his tenure.

Misjudging talent is one thing. Judging who can and will succeed in the NFL is impossibly difficult. But Mr. Graves has made profoundly bad predictions and decisions away from that arena--foreseeably bad decisions--and for that I don't think he can be forgiven so easily.

 

[Crazy Canuck]

OUR OL... by SHARKMAN on the other board:

I know it's popular to trash the Cardinals offensive line because it has become a popular sport with the mainstream media....

....who know less than nothing about our team. Let me separate fact from fiction:

Fiction = The Cardinals offensive line sucked last year.
Fact = The Cardinals offensive sucked the first part of last season.
Fact = The Cardinals line was one of the best lines the second half of the season.

I offer the following quantifiable data as proof:

Run Blocking
First 8 games of the season Edge averaged 64 yards per game and 2.87 yards per carry. He had no 100 yard games.

The last 8 games of the season Edge averaged 90 yards per game and 4.3 yards per carry. He gained 100 yards 3 of the last 4 games.

By comparison, the Steelers vaunted line that helped Willie Parker get a pro bowl spot last season...Willie averaged 93.37 yards per game and 4.4 yards per carry. The averages are very similar to Edge's last half of the season. If Edge had those same averages for an entire season...he would gain over 1450 yards....which would probably get him a pro bowl nod.

Pass Blocking
Kurt Warner's first 4 games of the season:
12 sacks
10 fumbles
78.4 QB rating

Matt's first 5 games of the season:
13 sacks
899 yards
66.9 QB rating
.................................................. ........
Matt's last 5 games of the season:
6 sacks
1200 yards
95.5 QB rating (and a 137.3 rating his last game before injury)

Kurt's last 2 games of the season:
2 sacks
No fumbles
104.75 QB rating

By comparison, Pittsburgh's Big Ben had a QB rating of 84.2 the last 5 games of the season...and if you compare the same number of games played by each QB on corresponding weeks:
Big Ben = 43 sacks for the year
Matt = 21 sacks...............for the same number of games played.


Conclusion?
At the start of last season our line was without question one of the League's worst...but the second half of the season....statistically....it was in the top 30%.

We have everyone on the line returning from that same unit which showed promise...with the exception of Leonard Davis (the team leader in false start and holding penalties)...yes we need a replacement....but an average OT would be a significant upgrade. I'm not even taking into consideration the continued improvement the line should see under the competent tutelage of Russ Grimm.

The sky isn't falling...we don't need to "reach" for an underachieving tackle...if Joe Thomas falls to number 5....let's gladly take him...if he's not...pick the BPA and go for an OT in a later round.....or.....trade down and select Brown or Staley.

Our offensive line is fine...and will be better with Grimms coaching of Gorin & Ross....and value additions through the draft.

 

[ajcardfan]

Yeah, whatever sharkman. I'm not much into the "coaching up" argument anymore. I'm into "prove it" nowadays. We're already turning over 40% of the line. Doesn't sound like we're "set" to me.

 

[lobo]

The sky isn't falling...we don't need to "reach" for an underachieving tackle...if Joe Thomas falls to number 5....let's gladly take him...if he's not...pick the BPA and go for an OT in a later round.....or.....trade down and select Brown or Staley.

Our offensive line is fine...and will be better with Grimms coaching of Gorin & Ross....and value additions through the draft.[/quote]


Thank You. Because there is virtually nothing to discuss our members are restless and feel the need to say something.

 

[Crazy Canuck]

Yeah, whatever sharkman. I'm not much into the "coaching up" argument anymore. I'm into "prove it" nowadays. We're already turning over 40% of the line. Doesn't sound like we're "set" to me.

Given that we lost our starting left tackle from last year (20%), am I to understand that adding a quality centre to compete for the starting role is the other (20%) of the disruption you're concerned about?

 

[ajcardfan]

Given that we lost our starting left tackle from last year (20%), am I to understand that adding a quality centre to compete for the starting role is the other (20%) of the disruption you're concerned about?

If Al Johnson doesn't start then that would be a horrible free agent signing. So, I don't really buy the "competition" stuff. I think it's totally Johnson's job to lose. He'll have to completely stink to get benched. Actually, given the Cardinals track record with free agent olinemen, I guess you could be right and Leckey could wind up being the starter.


No concern really. It's been pretty much the same every offseason for a long time now in regards to the oline. "We'll find quality OL after round 1 in the draft", "Good ol' ___________ will coach 'em up!" "______________ should really improve this year", "They actually played well over the last half of the year, if we just...."

It just didn't make sense to me that sharkman touts the line's play over the last few games and then glosses over the fact that THAT line, for better or worse, isn't coming back this year. It will probably look quite different in scheme and personnel IMO.

 

[joeshmo]

If Al Johnson doesn't start then that would be a horrible free agent signing. So, I don't really buy the "competition" stuff. I think it's totally Johnson's job to lose. He'll have to completely stink to get benched. Actually, given the Cardinals track record with free agent olinemen, I guess you could be right and Leckey could wind up being the starter.

You are so right about that. They didnt give Johnson 7 Mill this year to be a backup to Leckey.

 

[Stout]

The sky isn't falling...we don't need to "reach" for an underachieving tackle...if Joe Thomas falls to number 5....let's gladly take him...if he's not...pick the BPA and go for an OT in a later round.....or.....trade down and select Brown or Staley.

Our offensive line is fine...and will be better with Grimms coaching of Gorin & Ross....and value additions through the draft.

Thank You. Because there is virtually nothing to discuss our members are restless and feel the need to say something.[/QUOTE]

Lol You're like Kevin Bacon at the end of Animal House. "Remain calm...all is well!"

You proclaim our offensive line fine? We're short a starter and we're all hunky-dory? We have Elton Brown and Brandon Gorin as our ONLY depth, and that's behind OLIVER ROSS at LT, and we have no concerns?

Yeah, you're sure right about that...we're only arguing because we have nothing better to do...yeah, that's it.

 

[BigRedArk]

I don't know. I think that we're basically parsing out the same issue and splitting hairs between "stupidity" and "incompetence."

If it were just bad talent decisions, that would be one thing. But Rod Graves has continually mis-read the NFL landscape, whether it's which DL would slide to 18th overall, or the quality of June 1 cuts, or the market for free agents after the new collective bargaining agreement. Many people here have been able to suggest better decisions than Graves has made in his tenure.

Misjudging talent is one thing. Judging who can and will succeed in the NFL is impossibly difficult. But Mr. Graves has made profoundly bad predictions and decisions away from that arena--foreseeably bad decisions--and for that I don't think he can be forgiven so easily.

Yeah we're parsing. It's just that he was able to graduate from Texas Tech with a degree in economics so he's got something going for him. He has made bad predictions though I agree. There had to be other potential GM's/VP's out there that could do the job better than him but did the Bidwill's bother to interview any of 'em? Instead he was rewarded with a three year extension.

 

[Duckjake]

The sky isn't falling...we don't need to "reach" for an underachieving tackle...if Joe Thomas falls to number 5....let's gladly take him...if he's not...pick the BPA and go for an OT in a later round.....or.....trade down and select Brown or Staley.

Our offensive line is fine...and will be better with Grimms coaching of Gorin & Ross....and value additions through the draft.

Thank You. Because there is virtually nothing to discuss our members are restless and feel the need to say something.

I feel the need to say that the poster is dead wrong in believing the Cards offensive line will be fine with Oliver "turnstile" Ross or some other run of the mill player at LT and Reggie "holding #74 offense" Wells at RT. To think that Grimm is going to make these guys better just by coaching them up is a fairy tale.

 

[Garthshort]

State of the OL

Crazy Canuck, thank you for the post and stats. I felt that the OL improved as the year went on and changes were made. In addition to the improvement in the passing game, I read somewhere that Edge averaged 4.2 YPC over the last seven games. Of course, we need to add to the OL and I feel we will. I expect the following additions:
1. FA-one or two FA's(Gandy,etc.).
2. Draft-two OL selected.
3. Undrafted "Eighth Rounders"-two or more signed.
So in addition to Gorin, Brown and Johnson, we'll probably go to camp with another half dozen candidates.

 

[lobo]

Thank You. Because there is virtually nothing to discuss our members are restless and feel the need to say something.

Lol You're like Kevin Bacon at the end of Animal House. "Remain calm...all is well!"

You proclaim our offensive line fine? We're short a starter and we're all hunky-dory? We have Elton Brown and Brandon Gorin as our ONLY depth, and that's behind OLIVER ROSS at LT, and we have no concerns?

Yeah, you're sure right about that...we're only arguing because we have nothing better to do...yeah, that's it.[/quote]


Last time I looked F/A is not over, the draft is not for another month, we have not had all the players in camp. But I'm like Kevin Bacon! I won't address that but if you think this is a sprint, best of luck and keep raging!

 

[joeshmo]

Last time I looked F/A is not over,

Take a look at the list of available free agents left and you will quickly find out that while by definition it is not over it has come to a screaching halt.

Why do you think there has been barely any signings the last week or so.

Gandy is still on the market becuase he stinks, couldnt even hack it at OG.

The only thing left is trades and the draft.

 

[ajcardfan]

The only thing left is trades and the draft.

Don't forget the june 1st cuts! Those always bring just tons of opportunity to get more starters!