Gortat trade?

[jlove]

Anyone here of any talk as to teams looking at Gortat or even if the Suns would deal him? I found this tweet:

Shaun Powell: Suns getting calls on Gortat, which is crazy, since anybody could've had him 2 years ago. about 9 minutes ago

Read more: http://hoopshype.com/twitter/media.html#ixzz1kyjRKxT2

I wouldn't think the Suns would deal him unless they were in complete rebuild and were getting $5 on the $1 for him. Either shipping him with a bad contract or two (Childress/Warrick/Frye) or with Nash/Hill, etc. Even then, I think Gortat along with Markieff are the 2 that I'd designate untouchables on our team.​

 

[JS22]

NO. As much as Slin would love to trade him, he's not going anywhere. Not unless you're getting a ridiculous deal. Top 5 pick + proven young player and the ability to dump a bad salary. (Warrick or Childress.)

Even then I'd have to think twice. Gortat is a double double machine and a top level center in the NBA. Don't forget, he was hampered with a broken finger earlier in the season. I'm betting he'll be closer to 17/12 by the end of the season. Such a shame. The Suns FINALLY found the center they've been looking for all these years. And he's wasted on a garbage team.

 

[slinslin]

I would trade him for a deal centered around Derrick Williams and us dumping Childress in a nano second. Would really help our rebuilding process.

http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=7hz2zwe


Someone on realgm said that Gambo and Burns were talking about some sort of Nash trade that is rumored involving Portland, Washington, Lakers and us where we would end up with McGee, Blatche and one of the Lakers first round picks.

 

[95pro]

wow, can you imagine nash as a laker...wow

 

[jlove]

I would trade him for a deal centered around Derrick Williams and us dumping Childress in a nano second. Would really help our rebuilding process.

http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=7hz2zwe


Someone on realgm said that Gambo and Burns were talking about some sort of Nash trade that is rumored involving Portland, Washington, Lakers and us where we would end up with McGee, Blatche and one of the Lakers first round picks.

Where on RealGM? I haven't seen anything on there.

 

[FArting]

Where on RealGM? I haven't seen anything on there.

http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=1148087&p=30198387

 

[devilalum]

Unless they get a deal like they got for Nance, no.

 

[devilalum]

Unless they get a deal like they got for Nance, no.

Actually the Suns are in a position to do a one year rebuild like the one the did with the Nance trade.

They traded Nance for KJ and some role players. Drafted Majerlie and signed Tom Chambers.

If they could trade Gortat for a budding star, draft a future star with their lotto pick and sign a top notch free agent or 2 they'd be looking pretty good.

 

[BC867]

Actually the Suns are in a position to do a one year rebuild like the one the did with the Nance trade.

They traded Nance for KJ and some role players. Drafted Majerle and signed Tom Chambers.

If they could trade Gortat for a budding star, draft a future star with their lotto pick and sign a top notch free agent or 2 they'd be looking pretty good.

And be a 50-and-fade team as we have for decades with Frye and Lopez playing against real Centers.

Gortat is a budding star. Of course other teams would love to steal him now.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

I would trade him for a deal centered around Derrick Williams and us dumping Childress in a nano second. Would really help our rebuilding process.

http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=7hz2zwe

Brilliant, trade our only asset, and a top 5 center for a tweener that hasn't shown anything. I nominate you for GM!

 

[Covert Rain]

I would trade him for a deal centered around Derrick Williams and us dumping Childress in a nano second. Would really help our rebuilding process.

Ofcourse you would. No surprises there. Stupid trade by the way. Building around a PG has gotten this franchise ZERO rings. You don't trade Gortat unless your getting a 1st round lock of a big man or another legit big man in return that is younger. PERIOD.

Any other kind of trade is stupid and doesn't give any kind of front court presence for Williams to work with. We would end up spending another 5 years to get a legit big man and then what? Small ball all over again because we can't play in the paint.

Wait...maybe we can resign Lopez and hope he blossoms.

 

[TJ]

Gortat and Morris are the future of this team.

The sooner the Suns realize that trading Nash is what's best for this team, the better.

 

[slinslin]

And be a 50-and-fade team as we have for decades with Frye and Lopez playing against real Centers.

Gortat is a budding star. Of course other teams would love to steal him now.

Gortat is not a budding star, he is 28 in a few days and despite being clearly the #1 option on offense and playing with Steve Nash he has never had one 30 point game. His offensive arsenal is way too limited to be a "Star".

You can go on and rant about how good Gortat is again now, it is totally pointless his prime as a player comes during years where it makes absolutely no difference for this team and then he will look for a huge contract in 2 years.

Lol and why even mention Lopez and Frye as if you could seriously think we would hold onto them as starters throughout a rebuilding process. We have a long way to go before even being a 50-fade team as you say once again.

 

[dziki]

Wow! new argument! Gortat has never had 30/pts game!

This seasons he has had 5 matches with 20/+ points (5/20 = 1/4 = 25 %) and in only 3 games he has been under 10/pts (out of 20).

Ow, and I almost forgot about the small detail. The first 6 games he played with a broken thumb (in the first match against Mavs the recovery of the thumb was clearly visible).

SO ...
First 6 games (with a broken thumb) --> avg 10 pts (+ 6.2 rbs, 1.7 bs, 0.8 st per game).
Then 14 games after injury --> avg 18 pts (+ 12.2 rbs, 1.9 bs, 1 as per game)

AND
only ONE game without 10/+ pts (with Portland), TWO games without 10/+ rbs (MIL, POR).

And if we will consider, for the purposes of this statistical post, these first six games as "avoid" then his 20/+ pts statistic looks even better.

THEN
we are looking for a centers who has had 30/+ pts this season. In the top 50 scoring leaders there are 6 centers (DeMarcus Cousins, Greg Monroe, Marc Gasol, Al Jefferson, Dwight Howard and Gortat), from which Jefferson has had ONE game with 30/+ pts (against Cavaliers) and Monroe as well (against Milwaukee). Only Howard killed Golden State with 45 pts.

THEN
Career best scores of all of them is at least 30/+ pts BUT Gasol and Cousins are exactly 30 pts, Monroe 32 (career high against MIL) and only Jefferson and Howard has had really dominant games with 40/+ pts. Gortat best is 25 against NOH (exactly one year ago;-) ), not really worser than Cousins or Gasol best.

THEN
Try to count how many games with 20/+ pts they have had this season and what is the avarage for pts/rbs (stats going up/down e.g. if it is 14.4 = 14, 15.8 =16):
Gortat --> 5/20 * 15/10 ;
Cousins --> 2/19 * 15/ 11;
Monroe --> 6/22 * 16/10
Gasol --> 6/20 * 15/11
Jefferson --> 7/16 * 18/9
Howard --> 9/21 * 20/12

AND
Gasol, Jefferson and Howard are almost in the same age as Gortat (28/27) but they are playing as starters 4 years (out of 4 total --> Gasol), 6 (out of 8 total --> Jefferson) and 8 (out of 8 total --> Howard). Gortat is playing in NBA 5 years but in fact he started to play more minutes after trade to Suns one year ago.

If he is comparable in shooting stats to most of the most valuable centers in this league then what`s your problem? Ok, I`m pretty sure everybody will agree that Jefferson and Howard are just beast but with the others he can be compared - even if they are few years younger (it means that they have an opportunity to grow up and become dominant centers in this league but it doesn`t mean that Gortat or Gasol has to be considered as old-veterans without chances to beat`em).

EDIT:
btw. after injury he is avaraging points as Jefferson (18) and rebounds as Howard (12 ) ;-).

 

[slinslin]

Where is the proof that just because you have not played many NBA minutes you are less likely to wear down because of age? It is not really there. John Stockton, Kareem Abdul Jabbar, Karl Malone, Kobe Bryant, Kevin Garnett these players all had a lot of mileage and lasted longer than a lot of players who had less mileage.

Not playing much tells you nothing about how fast a player will decline with age.

 

[dziki]

And that`s the only thing you get from my post? Really?

So basically, in your opinion, Suns can`t consider Gortat as reliable part of future team because he is too old for that. In the same time you are counting names: Stockton, Jabbar, Malone, Bryant or Garnett. What`s your point then? He is not old, he may be in 4 years (for basketball standards) but it is not certain.

 

[JustWinBaby]

Gortat is not a budding star, he is 28 in a few days and despite being clearly the #1 option on offense and playing with Steve Nash he has never had one 30 point game. His offensive arsenal is way too limited to be a "Star".

You can go on and rant about how good Gortat is again now, it is totally pointless his prime as a player comes during years where it makes absolutely no difference for this team and then he will look for a huge contract in 2 years.

Lol and why even mention Lopez and Frye as if you could seriously think we would hold onto them as starters throughout a rebuilding process. We have a long way to go before even being a 50-fade team as you say once again.

I guess you and I are in the minority on Gortat. He is a GOOD player, far from great and I would trade him for a younger player with potential or a high draft pick given the choice. He is not the type of player you build a franchise around. He is the type of player you add when you have a couple of franchise players.

My major concern with him, if I were the owner, is that he is boring. Yes he is. I doubt that is going to improve either. Franchise players not only can play, they sell tickets. I really doubt that anyone has bought season tickets with the anticipation of watching him play. The team needs to find a franchise player in the worst way.

However if there are no good deals to be had for him, youth and or high draft picks, I would keep him. He is probably our best player not named Nash. I definitely would not dump him for nothing.

Drummond or Gortat - Take your pick.

 

[JCSunsfan]

I guess you and I are in the minority on Gortat. He is a GOOD player, far from great and I would trade him for a younger player with potential or a high draft pick given the choice. He is not the type of player you build a franchise around. He is the type of player you add when you have a couple of franchise players.

My major concern with him, if I were the owner, is that he is boring. Yes he is. I doubt that is going to improve either. Franchise players not only can play, they sell tickets. I really doubt that anyone has bought season tickets with the anticipation of watching him play. The team needs to find a franchise player in the worst way.

However if there are no good deals to be had for him, youth and or high draft picks, I would keep him. He is probably our best player not named Nash. I definitely would not dump him for nothing.

Drummond or Gortat - Take your pick.

It is almost impossible to add a player like Gortat once you have a couple of franchise players. You really just have to luck into a center like Gortat. Teams that have 18/10 centers who play excellent interior defense (and are amazingly healthy) just don't give them up. Gortat might not be the #1 piece in building a team, but he is a rare and essential piece.

He is a Robert Parrish or a Bill Laimbeer, not the focal point of the team, but those Celtic and Pistons teams don't win a championship without him.

Start with Gortat. Develop Markieff Morris if possible. Be really bad this year. Draft a focal point type player in this draft. Sign an excellent free agent. All those steps are possible, and will make this a hugely improved team by next year.

I do not mind trading Gortat, but it has to be a Larry Nance type of deal. No one is going to offer us that.

 

[TJ]

Wow! new argument! Gortat has never had 30/pts game!

This seasons he has had 5 matches with 20/+ points (5/20 = 1/4 = 25 %) and in only 3 games he has been under 10/pts (out of 20).

Ow, and I almost forgot about the small detail. The first 6 games he played with a broken thumb (in the first match against Mavs the recovery of the thumb was clearly visible).

SO ...
First 6 games (with a broken thumb) --> avg 10 pts (+ 6.2 rbs, 1.7 bs, 0.8 st per game).
Then 14 games after injury --> avg 18 pts (+ 12.2 rbs, 1.9 bs, 1 as per game)

AND
only ONE game without 10/+ pts (with Portland), TWO games without 10/+ rbs (MIL, POR).

And if we will consider, for the purposes of this statistical post, these first six games as "avoid" then his 20/+ pts statistic looks even better.

THEN
we are looking for a centers who has had 30/+ pts this season. In the top 50 scoring leaders there are 6 centers (DeMarcus Cousins, Greg Monroe, Marc Gasol, Al Jefferson, Dwight Howard and Gortat), from which Jefferson has had ONE game with 30/+ pts (against Cavaliers) and Monroe as well (against Milwaukee). Only Howard killed Golden State with 45 pts.

THEN
Career best scores of all of them is at least 30/+ pts BUT Gasol and Cousins are exactly 30 pts, Monroe 32 (career high against MIL) and only Jefferson and Howard has had really dominant games with 40/+ pts. Gortat best is 25 against NOH (exactly one year ago;-) ), not really worser than Cousins or Gasol best.

THEN
Try to count how many games with 20/+ pts they have had this season and what is the avarage for pts/rbs (stats going up/down e.g. if it is 14.4 = 14, 15.8 =16):
Gortat --> 5/20 * 15/10 ;
Cousins --> 2/19 * 15/ 11;
Monroe --> 6/22 * 16/10
Gasol --> 6/20 * 15/11
Jefferson --> 7/16 * 18/9
Howard --> 9/21 * 20/12

AND
Gasol, Jefferson and Howard are almost in the same age as Gortat (28/27) but they are playing as starters 4 years (out of 4 total --> Gasol), 6 (out of 8 total --> Jefferson) and 8 (out of 8 total --> Howard). Gortat is playing in NBA 5 years but in fact he started to play more minutes after trade to Suns one year ago.

If he is comparable in shooting stats to most of the most valuable centers in this league then what`s your problem? Ok, I`m pretty sure everybody will agree that Jefferson and Howard are just beast but with the others he can be compared - even if they are few years younger (it means that they have an opportunity to grow up and become dominant centers in this league but it doesn`t mean that Gortat or Gasol has to be considered as old-veterans without chances to beat`em).

EDIT:
btw. after injury he is avaraging points as Jefferson (18) and rebounds as Howard (12 ) ;-).

That's a lot of numbers for me to read first thing in the morning, but well stated.

Also, I wouldn't be surprised if he makes it as a reserve in the all-star game this year.

 

[AzStevenCal]

It is almost impossible to add a player like Gortat once you have a couple of franchise players. You really just have to luck into a center like Gortat. Teams that have 18/10 centers who play excellent interior defense (and are amazingly healthy) just don't give them up. Gortat might not be the #1 piece in building a team, but he is a rare and essential piece.

He is a Robert Parrish or a Bill Laimbeer, not the focal point of the team, but those Celtic and Pistons teams don't win a championship without him.

Start with Gortat. Develop Markieff Morris if possible. Be really bad this year. Draft a focal point type player in this draft. Sign an excellent free agent. All those steps are possible, and will make this a hugely improved team by next year.

I do not mind trading Gortat, but it has to be a Larry Nance type of deal. No one is going to offer us that.

I agree with everything you've said here except your last sentence. I think there's a decent chance that someone will overpay for Gortat. Gortat is no superstar, IMO he's a poor man's Patrick Ewing. But, right now, a poor man's Ewing looks pretty good compared to the crop of centers in this league. But, if I had to choose between a fair deal and keeping Marcin, I'd keep Marcin. I'd only move him if someone is willing to pay a premium to get a true center in the prime of his career.

Steve

 

[desertdawg]

Wow! new argument! Gortat has never had 30/pts game!

This seasons he has had 5 matches with 20/+ points (5/20 = 1/4 = 25 %) and in only 3 games he has been under 10/pts (out of 20).

Ow, and I almost forgot about the small detail. The first 6 games he played with a broken thumb (in the first match against Mavs the recovery of the thumb was clearly visible).

SO ...
First 6 games (with a broken thumb) --> avg 10 pts (+ 6.2 rbs, 1.7 bs, 0.8 st per game).
Then 14 games after injury --> avg 18 pts (+ 12.2 rbs, 1.9 bs, 1 as per game)

AND
only ONE game without 10/+ pts (with Portland), TWO games without 10/+ rbs (MIL, POR).

And if we will consider, for the purposes of this statistical post, these first six games as "avoid" then his 20/+ pts statistic looks even better.

THEN
we are looking for a centers who has had 30/+ pts this season. In the top 50 scoring leaders there are 6 centers (DeMarcus Cousins, Greg Monroe, Marc Gasol, Al Jefferson, Dwight Howard and Gortat), from which Jefferson has had ONE game with 30/+ pts (against Cavaliers) and Monroe as well (against Milwaukee). Only Howard killed Golden State with 45 pts.

THEN
Career best scores of all of them is at least 30/+ pts BUT Gasol and Cousins are exactly 30 pts, Monroe 32 (career high against MIL) and only Jefferson and Howard has had really dominant games with 40/+ pts. Gortat best is 25 against NOH (exactly one year ago;-) ), not really worser than Cousins or Gasol best.

THEN
Try to count how many games with 20/+ pts they have had this season and what is the avarage for pts/rbs (stats going up/down e.g. if it is 14.4 = 14, 15.8 =16):
Gortat --> 5/20 * 15/10 ;
Cousins --> 2/19 * 15/ 11;
Monroe --> 6/22 * 16/10
Gasol --> 6/20 * 15/11
Jefferson --> 7/16 * 18/9
Howard --> 9/21 * 20/12

AND
Gasol, Jefferson and Howard are almost in the same age as Gortat (28/27) but they are playing as starters 4 years (out of 4 total --> Gasol), 6 (out of 8 total --> Jefferson) and 8 (out of 8 total --> Howard). Gortat is playing in NBA 5 years but in fact he started to play more minutes after trade to Suns one year ago.

If he is comparable in shooting stats to most of the most valuable centers in this league then what`s your problem? Ok, I`m pretty sure everybody will agree that Jefferson and Howard are just beast but with the others he can be compared - even if they are few years younger (it means that they have an opportunity to grow up and become dominant centers in this league but it doesn`t mean that Gortat or Gasol has to be considered as old-veterans without chances to beat`em).

EDIT:
btw. after injury he is avaraging points as Jefferson (18) and rebounds as Howard (12 ) ;-).

Nice post D

 

[AzStevenCal]

I guess you and I are in the minority on Gortat. He is a GOOD player, far from great and I would trade him for a younger player with potential or a high draft pick given the choice. He is not the type of player you build a franchise around. He is the type of player you add when you have a couple of franchise players.

You just do NOT trade a solid center for a high draft pick or a younger player with potential. If you were talking about any other position, perhaps I'd agree with you. I do agree, try to upgrade a little and get younger at the same time but it's a really bad decision to do that with a solid center.

My major concern with him, if I were the owner, is that he is boring. Yes he is. I doubt that is going to improve either. Franchise players not only can play, they sell tickets. I really doubt that anyone has bought season tickets with the anticipation of watching him play. The team needs to find a franchise player in the worst way.

Boring? You'd give him away for pennies on the dollar because he's not exciting. He plays the game the right way, with position instead of freakish athleticism. That's the reason many of us think he won't start to lose any of his value until late in his career. He'll never be the player Duncan has been but how many wins do you think Tim cost his franchise by being the most boring player in the league?

And as for not improving, he improved over the course of his first partial season as a starter and he stepped it up a full notch again this year. Maybe he's done improving but he came to the game late and he came to a starting role late and when you consider that big men typically grow into their games later I see no reason to not anticipate continued improvement.

However if there are no good deals to be had for him, youth and or high draft picks, I would keep him. He is probably our best player not named Nash. I definitely would not dump him for nothing.

This might be the hardest sentence to swallow. Probably? Probably??? He is by far our most valuable asset and it isn't even close. I think he is probably our best player straight up, including Nash, but excluding Nash it isn't even close.

Drummond or Gortat - Take your pick.

But, that's not really what you or slinslin have been saying. You're saying trade him for the chance to get Drummond and that's a fool's gamble IMO. It's even a risk to trade him straight up for the number one pick. I'd probably take that risk because our best bet to get out of this mess is to luck into a dominant player on the level of a Kobe or Durant but there are a lot of guys that draw the "next somebody" label that just turn out to be the "next nobody".

He's the best true center this team has ever had (IMO) and it would be a shame to give him away for something like Derrick Williams. The absolute minimum I would consider is a talented young player such as Williams and at least 2 first round picks. And one of those picks would need to be a sure-fire lottery pick without protection.

Steve

 

[JCSunsfan]

He's the best true center this team has ever had (IMO) and it would be a shame to give him away for something like Derrick Williams. The absolute minimum I would consider is a talented young player such as Williams and at least 2 first round picks. And one of those picks would need to be a sure-fire lottery pick without protection.

Steve

Do you think someone would give us a Derrick Williams, an unprotected lottery pick, and another first round pick, for Gortat?

Wow. I think I would take that. But that offer is not coming.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Do you think someone would give us a Derrick Williams, an unprotected lottery pick, and another first round pick, for Gortat?

Wow. I think I would take that. But that offer is not coming.

No, I don't really think that offer is coming. However, I don't consider it over the top either and I wouldn't move him for anything less. Salaries weren't a problem back then but the Nance deal only occurred because they already had an all star caliber player at the position we coveted. In today's NBA, the problem isn't so much whether he could bring us this kind of value in return, the problem is finding the right mix of teams that have what we need and need what we have. And that's easier said than done.

Steve

 

[ASUCHRIS]

Do you think someone would give us a Derrick Williams, an unprotected lottery pick, and another first round pick, for Gortat?

Wow. I think I would take that. But that offer is not coming.

Have you actually seen Williams play?