Grizzlies @ Suns game thread 12-21-17

[devilalum]

Turble


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[Mainstreet]

Daniels with a huge 3 with 17 seconds left. Suns lead 97-95.

 

[SirStefan32]

Bender needs to get off the ground when he shoots. I swear his threes tonight look like free throws from behind the line.

 

[Hoop Head]

Hell of a shot by Daniels and rebound by Monroe.

 

[SirStefan32]

Bender is so smart on defense,

 

[JCSunsfan]

BEnders defense at the end got this win.

 

[Mainstreet]

Final:

Suns 97 - Grizzlies 95

Grizzlies miss shot at the buzzer.

 

[Mainstreet]

BEnders defense at the end got this win.

Not a bad strip by Warren either.

 

[Hoop Head]

Ennis made a bad play at the end. If they had tried to play for overtime they would have been better off. He should have driven instead of pulling up for that 3, he probably would have been fouled if he would have drove in.

Good win for the Suns though. Could have used the loss against a team like Memphis, who is behind them in the standings, but it was a good win. Surprised the Suns are 7-0 when TJ scores 25 or more.

 

[Mainstreet]

The starting unit with all minuses and the second unit with all pluses (+/-).

Warren, Jackson and Monroe can't help it they start.

 

[Hoop Head]

The plus/minus was telling, again. I imagine when Booker returns some changes will be made to the starting 5. They'll have to work him back into the lineup anyways, which I think will push House out of the rotation, and maybe try starting Bender again or give Canaan the starting PG spot. Ulis has been good, or better at least, when he's came off the bench.

I wish they'd let Chandler go, he adds nothing and Monroe and Len are clearly better Centers. They're better rebounders and scorers. Monroe is a good passer for a big also.

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[JCSunsfan]

Believe it or not, we now have a better winning percentage since the Booker injury than we had before it.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Bender is not starting, but now consistently playing more minutes than Chriss.

 

[BC867]

Believe it or not, we now have a better winning percentage since the Booker injury than we had before it.

Thanks to the bench.

I, too, would like to see Canaan moved to starting PG. It is not like there is an established player in that position. The return of Booker, at the latest, would be a good time.

 

[Shaggy]

The plus/minus was telling, again. I imagine when Booker returns some changes will be made to the starting 5. They'll have to work him back into the lineup anyways, which I think will push House out of the rotation, and maybe try starting Bender again or give Canaan the starting PG spot. Ulis has been good, or better at least, when he's came off the bench.

I wish they'd let Chandler go, he adds nothing and Monroe and Len are clearly better Centers. They're better rebounders and scorers. Monroe is a good passer for a big also.

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How are the plus/minus calculated?

 

[Hoop Head]

Bender is not starting, but now consistently playing more minutes than Chriss.

I know Bender played probably his worst game of the season during his 1 start but I think he deserves another chance, especially since he's got the mask gone now. If they don't start Bender maybe they can go back to the smaller lineup of Jackson and Warren at Forward, bringing Chriss off the bench. Chriss shouldn't be starting, he's been awful.

 

[Hoop Head]

How are the plus/minus calculated?

Plus/minus is how the score is when that player is on the court. So if Chandler starts and plays the first 8 minutes and sits while the Suns have a 2 point lead, he has a +2 going to the bench. When he returns his +/- starts back up. Say he returns and the score is 40 Suns and 35 Grizzlies, whatever scoring happens while he's on the court will effect his own personal +/-. If he plays the rest of the quarter and at half time the score is tied up then, at 50 a piece, then they gave up 5 points while he was on the court that second time out so he'd drop to -3 over all since he was at a +2 when he returned.

 

[BC867]

Plus/minus is how the score is when that player is on the court. So if Chandler starts and plays the first 8 minutes and sits while the Suns have a 2 point lead, he has a +2 going to the bench. When he returns his +/- starts back up. Say he returns and the score is 40 Suns and 35 Grizzlies, whatever scoring happens while he's on the court will effect his own personal +/-. If he plays the rest of the quarter and at half time the score is tied up then, at 50 a piece, then they gave up 5 points while he was on the court that second time out so he'd drop to -3 over all since he was at a +2 when he returned.

It is a better indicator than not but, of course, it also reflects whatever other players happen to be on the floor when the particular player is.

A non-competitive starting or bench squad would take down a good player and vice versa. Or a better or worse Point Guard. Or rebounder. Etc.

 

[Hoop Head]

There is also "REAL Plus/Minus" and "Box Plus/Minus".

Here is a link for Real +/-, which is an ESPN stats primarily.
Here is the ESPN explanation on that.
http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/10740818/introducing-real-plus-minus

Here is more on BPM from Deadspin.


Here is some explanation for Box +/-, Box +/- is an average figured per 100 possessions.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/about/bpm.html

What I posted above though was just regular +/-, no fancy averaging just basic plus/minus for the time a player is on the court. It's a good tool to see how much a player contributes overall.

 

[Hoop Head]

Like BC said, it can be effected by who else is on the court with a player but it's a really useful tool to judge PG's, since they're supposed to set up the offense. I think it works well too if you're trying to judge if someone really is a defensive leader or defensive anchor who helps impact the game on that side of the floor.

 

[BC867]

Yup, basketball (just as hockey and soccer) are very much team sports. And they share the offense-defense responsibilities back and forth while they are on the court/field.

Football, of course, plays two units -- offense and defense. And baseball is unique -- an individual concept within a team game.

 

[Errntknght]

That is basic plus/minus. There are variations where adjustments are made depending on who else is on the floor at the time. The Real Plus Minus, designated RPM, and broken down into offensive and defensive (quoted as DRPM & ORPM) are examples of that. It involves rather tricky mathematics using correlation matrices and lots of computation, so the simplicity is lost, along with understanding.
Another variation is to use on-floor and off-floor basic plus minus and a comparison of the two, normalized to per 48 minutes or per 100 possessions, typically.

 

[Hoop Head]

Didn't the Suns trade a first round pick for Brandan Wright?

I'm not sure what happened to the pick or if it turned into two second round picks.

They traded for him in 2015, in what was actually a good deal for them. They traded a 1st for him but it was top 12 protected in 2015 and 16, if it didn't convey during those 2 years though it then turned into 2nd round picks in 2016 and 2017. So all the picks have been paid off, that was a deal with Boston during the 2014-15 season.

 

[SirStefan32]

The plus/minus was telling, again. I imagine when Booker returns some changes will be made to the starting 5. They'll have to work him back into the lineup anyways, which I think will push House out of the rotation, and maybe try starting Bender again or give Canaan the starting PG spot. Ulis has been good, or better at least, when he's came off the bench.

I wish they'd let Chandler go, he adds nothing and Monroe and Len are clearly better Centers. They're better rebounders and scorers. Monroe is a good passer for a big also.

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I tend to agree that changes to the starting lineup need to be made. In my opinion, Len and Bender need to start. They've earned it over Chriss, Chandler, and Monroe. Canaan should likely start over Ullis as well. Don't know if I agree that they should trade Chandler. I don't think he does any harm, and it's good to have an old guy on the roster with that type of experience. I wouldn't be upset if they traded him, but I really don't feel strongly about it either way.

 

[Hoop Head]

I'd be fine with keeping Chandler except we need to create a roster spot when Booker returns so we can keep Canaan. House is on a Two-Way deal and it's unlikely he's let go so we can convert Canaan's contract to a Two-Way just to keep him up here. I don't think he can sign one of those anyways since he's been in the league over 4 years. We could waive James but that's unlikely to happen. I'd rather keep Monroe to trade him at the deadline than buy him out right now.