Hall of Fame Discussion

[Errntknght]

I agree with Eric's top seven. I think Dirk, Dwayne and LBJ are likely to make it but personally I don't rate them as HOFers yet. Even Nash is somewhat on the bubble in my mind because he started so slowly. Amare might get there if he stays healthy enough.

Carter and McGrady - not to my way of thinking nor Ray Allen.

One guy that overshadows all of them, IMO, and who probably won't make it is Alonzo Mourning.

BTW, Horry has no chance. A guy has to be some kind of force in the game and, for all his big shots, Horry hasn't been that ballpark.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Okay, I'll concede the point. Nowitzki over Carter and McGrady. Between Carter and McGrady is too close to call.

that I agree with. Both came out of the gates like gang-busters but injuries and quitting on various teams has really taken the shine off these guys. They're gonna have to step it up in the next couple of years to get in the Hall I think.

 

[arwillan]

I agree with Eric's top seven. I think Dirk, Dwayne and LBJ are likely to make it but personally I don't rate them as HOFers yet. Even Nash is somewhat on the bubble in my mind because he started so slowly. Amare might get there if he stays healthy enough.

Carter and McGrady - not to my way of thinking nor Ray Allen.

One guy that overshadows all of them, IMO, and who probably won't make it is Alonzo Mourning.

BTW, Horry has no chance. A guy has to be some kind of force in the game and, for all his big shots, Horry hasn't been that ballpark.

though he isnt the guy that the other team will gameplan for, or that they will be worried about doubling etc etc, those teams all have his number when it comes down to the wire. sure he is a role player, but he does his role incredibly well. id be a fool to say his success is not based on the quality of teams he has been on but a few of his rings may not be there if it hadnt been for him stepping up in the end of a game to make that big shot. i know i dont have many behind me in saying it, but i think horry is in.


as for carter and tmac: i think tmac is the better player, just barely. he also only has one other great player on his team, while carter has 2. carter has made it deeper into the playoffs (anyone know if he has a ring? i forget). tmac needs to step it up in the years coming. he has a good team, he just has to step on the gas

 

[dodie53]

tmac > carter

imo

 

[arwillan]

tmac > carter

imo

agreed

 

[Black Jesus]

1. Shaq
2. Kobe
3. Nash
4. Duncan
5. Kidd
6. Iverson
7. Dirk
8. Garnett
9. Billups- how does he make noones list????
10. LBJ or Horry... depending on skill or nba glory

 

[Black Jesus]

everyone picked ray allen and Tmac over billups- that shouldnt even be possible.

 

[mathbzh]

You will hate it but I believe Ginobili will be in the HOF.
He has the rings, the Olympic gold medal, good numbers and some great playoff performance. Being an international player with a unique style (like it or not) will also help him.

 

[mathbzh]

everyone picked ray allen and Tmac over billups- that shouldnt even be possible.

Billups makes my list

 

[azirish]

Carrying on an item from another topic, I think that future HOF is the illusory category above Superstar. You can get added and removed from the Superstar ranking fairly easily. HOF means you are not only great, but have been great for a really long time.

In both categories, there are a lot of things to consider:

1. Statistics - Career stats, relative stats (how the player ranked), and consistency. I don't think it is enough, but weak stats can certain hurt.

2. Awards - MVP, All Star, something or another player of the year, National team selection, etc. They don't make it on their own, but give credibility

3. Playoff Success - Championships and high performance in the playoffs makes a big difference. This is the criteria that hurt guys like KG and T-Mac although probably not enough to make a difference

4. Style - This should be just for HOF. Style is very subjective and totally unfair, but guys who do spectacular stuff are better known. Pippen was almost as good as Jordan, but Jordan was a continuous high light reel and Pippen was just efficient.

I'm probably missing something, but it's late.

 

[Errntknght]

Why don't we list great players from earlier era's that are not in the hall of fame... that will sort of give benchmarks for comparison.

I suppose I should kick it off but I don't really know who is in the HOF... oh wait, somebody intimated that Scottie Pippen isn't. Thats my offering...

 

[Griffin]

For what it's worth, here are the top current players most likely to enter HOF according to the HOF formula on basketballreference.com

1. Tim Duncan 407
2. Shaquille O'neal 361
3. Steve Nash 273
4. Kevin Garnett 262
5. Allen Iverson 237
6. Jason Kidd 201
7. Kobe Bryant 189
8. Gary Payton 173
9. Chris Webber 138
10. Dirk Nowitzki 137

This list of course does not include any potential players like Lebron or Amare who haven't been in the league long enough yet.

According to the formula, a score of 135 or above has been historically shown to be the magic number for Hall acceptance. By the way, Horry's score is 86. By comparison, Shawn Marion has a 100.

Here's the formula they use:

• 75 points for each NBA MVP award
• 15 points for each All NBA First Team selection
• 1 point for each point of NBA career Approximate Value and .33 points for each point of ABA career Approximate Value
• 2.5 points for each point of NBA career Efficiency
• 3.5 points for each NBA Championship
• -20 points for centers and -15 points for forwards

http://www.basketballreference.com/about/abouthofm.htm
http://www.basketballreference.com/leaders/leadershof.htm

 

[Louis]

Kobe, Kidd, Ray Allen, KG, Nash, Shaq, Gary Payton, Dikembe, AI, and Duncan

 

[Griffin]

Why don't we list great players from earlier era's that are not in the hall of fame... that will sort of give benchmarks for comparison.

I suppose I should kick it off but I don't really know who is in the HOF... oh wait, somebody intimated that Scottie Pippen isn't. Thats my offering...

Pippen is not yet eligible.

 

[Ollie]

Why don't we list great players from earlier era's that are not in the hall of fame... that will sort of give benchmarks for comparison.

I suppose I should kick it off but I don't really know who is in the HOF... oh wait, somebody intimated that Scottie Pippen isn't. Thats my offering...

Paul Westphal, Artis Gilmore, Bernard King, Dennis Johnson, Jack Sikma, Bill Laimbeer... are eligibles but not (yet?) in the HOF.

Jordan, Malone, Olajuwon, Pippen, Robinson, Stockton, Pippen... are not eligibles yet (you have to be retired for 5 years). Barkley, Dumars and Wilkins entered last year, and Drexler a few years ago IIRC.

For what it's worth, here are the top current players most likely to enter HOF according to the HOF formula on basketballreference.com

1. Tim Duncan 407
2. Shaquille O'neal 361
3. Steve Nash 273
4. Kevin Garnett 262
5. Allen Iverson 237
6. Jason Kidd 201
7. Kobe Bryant 189
8. Gary Payton 173
9. Chris Webber 138
10. Dirk Nowitzki 137

This list of course does not include any potential players like Lebron or Amare who haven't been in the league long enough yet.

According to the formula, a score of 135 or above has been historically shown to be the magic number for Hall acceptance. By the way, Horry's score is 86. By comparison, Shawn Marion has a 100.

I always liked this site, but the major flaw of their HOF formula is that overvalues offensive stats and championships too much. Well, it's quite logical since they add up stats and awards, but still...

And the more you're closing to their "magic number", the more their predictions are arguable.

For instance you got overvalued guys like Chris Webber with 138, Penny with 125, Ho Grant with 121, Marques Johnson with 118, Ron Harper with 117, Otis Thorpe with 117, Sprewell with 116.

On the other side you got guys like Dennis Johnson with 134, KJ with 121, Chris Mullin with 120, Dennis Rodman with 118, Reggie Theus with 117, Bill Laimbeer with 116.

But their top 10 list is just fine, I'd only replace Webber with LeBron. And there's no doubt that Nash and Nowitzki will be in the HOF. Every MVP who is eligible for the HOF is in it.

 

[elindholm]

Every MVP who is eligible for the HOF is in it.

True, but every MVP in the HOF has also won at least one title, with the exception of Barkley. Nowadays, it's more common for MVPs to be without titles (Malone, Iverson, Garnett, Nash, Nowitzki), but it used to be that you couldn't win the award without already having a ring or excellent prospects of getting one.

Sooner or later, we'll have an one-time MVP who doesn't make the HOF because his career just wasn't that impressive.

 

[Bufalay]

True, but every MVP in the HOF has also won at least one title, with the exception of Barkley. Nowadays, it's more common for MVPs to be without titles (Malone, Iverson, Garnett, Nash, Nowitzki), but it used to be that you couldn't win the award without already having a ring or excellent prospects of getting one.

Sooner or later, we'll have an one-time MVP who doesn't make the HOF because his career just wasn't that impressive.

It seems kind of absurd that Shaq has only won 1 MVP.

 

[nowagimp]

I've got to disagree on Horry. He has the rings, but I've never seen him as a HOF player, more of a very good role player who has been fortunate enough to be on good teams. I could replace him with Jason Kidd off the top of my head.

Horry is a joke for the hall. Just because a guy can make a wide open shot does not make him a hall of famer. The guy played with Kobe, duncan, olajuwon, no wonder he was wide open. Steve Kerr could have made those shots. Jason Kidd is a definite HOF player and so is Reggie Miller who made a few big shots AND was an all star. its alot harder being the best player on your team, the defense concentrates on you, something that NEVER happened with Horry. And yes I take ray allen over Billups, easily. But I think Billups is a (borderline) HOF player. Ray Allen is one of the best jump shooters of all time, and has a good all around game. Being on a bad team does not change how good ray was/is.

 

[Bufalay]

I can't Imagine Billups being in the HOF. He's been good for about 4 years. If Nash is considered borderline because of his "slow" start then Billups, who is barely an all star IMO, should not even get consideration right now.

 

[azirish]

Why don't we list great players from earlier era's that are not in the hall of fame... that will sort of give benchmarks for comparison.

I suppose I should kick it off but I don't really know who is in the HOF... oh wait, somebody intimated that Scottie Pippen isn't. Thats my offering...

Alpha
http://www.hoophall.com/halloffamers/bhof-halloffamers-category.html

It does not appear Pippin is in. This may be a waiting period issue.

 

[FArting]

1 MV Steve
2.Shaq
3.Dirk
4.Kobe
5.Duncan
6.KG
7.Kidd
8.Iverson
9. Billups
10.Ray Allen

 

[mribnik]

I don't understand why everyone keeps bringing up Billups. He's been overrated for the last few years IMO. He certainly hasn't been good enough to warrant hall of fame consideration. Shawn Marion deserves it before he does.

 

[nowagimp]

I don't understand why everyone keeps bringing up Billups. He's been overrated for the last few years IMO. He certainly hasn't been good enough to warrant hall of fame consideration. Shawn Marion deserves it before he does.

Yup, it appear that even I under appreciate shawn. Outside of phx, he's more highly rated than billups,for sure. the rings argument only goes so far when you have top 10 all time dominant players attracting all the defensive attention. If Mario elie had played -before he got old- with the duncan/robinson spurs and the shaq/kobe lakers, he'd have 6 rings too. And he was a much better defender than Horry and just as good a shooter in the open.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

I agree with Eric's top seven. I think Dirk, Dwayne and LBJ are likely to make it but personally I don't rate them as HOFers yet. Even Nash is somewhat on the bubble in my mind because he started so slowly. Amare might get there if he stays healthy enough.

Carter and McGrady - not to my way of thinking nor Ray Allen.

One guy that overshadows all of them, IMO, and who probably won't make it is Alonzo Mourning.

BTW, Horry has no chance. A guy has to be some kind of force in the game and, for all his big shots, Horry hasn't been that ballpark.

Agree completely.

 

[azirish]

Due to health issues, Mourning has not had the chance to put up the kind of career he should have. Of course the other problem is that defense tends to be underrated when it comes to these kinds of awards.