Hawks @ Suns 1/13/09

[cly2tw]

Besides LB the Suns bench is not looking as solid as it did earlier in the season. I think Barnes' erratic play is a big reason. It especially shows when Grant Hill is not putting up double figure points.

Exactly. At this point, I'd try Dudley in his place. And Lou is given too big a role that smells failure. That's the coach's job to put them into their rightful position: the garbage, energy man.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Wanna get personal? Take it to PM.

personal? You're the one who just shoved ridiculous words into a bunch of people's mouths.

besides, I'd rather not. I'm still flying too high in anticipation of this Sunday's Eagle ass-kicking to get bogged down with you Chap. You ain't worth my time right now... in fact, I've got a thread to tend on the Cards board and I'm Cards CRAAAAAAAAAAAZZZZZZZZYYYYYYYYYYYYY right now!

tootles. try not to put any more words into people's mouths while I'm gone okay? Cool.

 

[Chaplin]

I am with you. Amare is just the current fad. He statistically is playing much better defense this year and despite a few lapses, I thought he played good defense for most of the stretches.

Amare's defense is not what bothered me in this game. It's his inability to do anything around the rim other then dunk sometimes.

His offense has been, I don't know, off for the past few weeks (at least since before Christmas). The problem is that because he isn't scoring 30 ppg right now, his defensive problems get magnified. He has a lot of problems, but complaining incessantly that he's a waste is counter-productive, wrong and plain stupid.

And yes, nobody said "waste", but you can infer that easily from some of the posts. I never singled cheesebeef out--in fact, I thought he seemed to be one of the more level-headed of the anti-Amare crew, but then again, I live in a black-and-white world.

 

[SirStefan32]

Going by numbers, the offense were mostly inept without involving him. That's a fact. Failure from time to time is part of the statistics. So, what's your point? Would you ask that we ignore him on offense because he failed once, or what?

Shaq was doing just fine. That's why Pop moved Duncan from Shaq to Amare. Porter correctly instructed the team to go to Amare to attack Duncan who had 5 fouls, and Amare failed THREE times. Not once, not twice, but three times. No basket, no foul.

Nobody is saying ignore him. He is the best offensive player on this team, but he is just not the one you want to go to when you have to score. It worked tonight, but Nash had as much to do with that play as Amare did. Great job by Amare on the previous possession setting up Nash too. We need Amare, and we all want him to be the best. I don't know where you get this idea that we want him ignored on offense.

 

[Cheesebeef]

anyone who wants to actually have a good time on the board right now and is sick of debating whether or not Amare is or is not as good as he should be should go to this thread - ain't nothing but sunshine and wholly Cardinal goodness/stupidity flowing there...

http://www.arizonasportsfans.com/vb...s-and-everyone-else-127024-6.html#post1923813

 

[atikiN]

Going by numbers, the offense were mostly inept without involving him. That's a fact. Failure from time to time is part of the statistics. So, what's your point? Would you ask that we ignore him on offense because he failed once, or what?

The offense is inept when Nash is out, not Amare. if LB is playing PG, Amare becomes more of a spectator than a supper star. I guess the biggest problem with Amare is that because of his poor defense, when he's struggeling on offense, he becomes useless.

I think Amare and some of his fans will need to accept that he will never be an MVP player. He won't elevate to the level of Lebron, Howard, CP3, Wade, and Kobe. He's not a complete player and probably never will be. I see him more of a Pippen type player that needs his Jordan to win a title.

 

[Sovereignz]

He seems really disenchanted with his role on this team. Outside of maybe the Lakers, there isn't a team in the league that Amare would be less valuable to than the Suns. Amare with Cleveland/New Orleans/Houston would be featured and much less of a defensive liability because he'd be surrounded by strong defensive team mates.

Here, he brings us a lot to the table offensively still (which is amazing considering how much fire power we have when Barbosa is playing well), but his value is diminished a lot by the make up of this team. In my opinion anyway.

That would seemingly make this team a perfect opportunity for him to become a real rebounding machine, but that just doens't seem to be in his DNA.

Maybe that makes this the best year to trade him for a top caliber work horse/defensive big I guess, but if it doesn't work out I think it'd be a disastrous move for the future because I really believe building a team of shooters/defensive players/good rebounders around Amare's offense would not be hard especially given how good of a passer he's become.

 

[cly2tw]

here's my bottom line. Defense wins titles. And Amare just flat out doesn't play on that side of the court... and he's unclutch more often than not on the other side of the court... bad combo for the guy who "wants to be the man!"

and we probably would have put the game away a lot earlier if he wasn't giving up offensive rebounds and getting in foul trouble and not hustling for loose balls all night long. no game comes down to just one play at the end. Amare just gives half-hearted effort what seems like at least 30% of games. That PATHETIC from our best player.

Defense is rather a dilemma for Amare right now. Due to his imperfect fundamental, putting "effort" you and many seem to want a la Lou may get him into foul trouble even faster, which'd hurt the team. So, it's easy that he might pace it some how and become particular timid with like 4 fouls.

You just can't ASSUME that he'd be as effective as Lou even when he tried to be as hustle man as Lou.

Bottomline, Amare is very essential to our success even with his imperfections. It's beyong me why many just pull out the "ideal performance level" as the measure to evaluate him and bashes him even when he wins us games with all that imperfection.

 

[Blackification]

I have a question for people that posted in here. A 23 page thread and all some of you posted were negative comments. Why? Amare complains to "fill his ego" but what are you complaining for? To repetitively stress your opinion on a subject or to fill your own little egos?

 

[Mainstreet]

Exactly. At this point, I'd try Dudley in his place. And Lou is given too big a role that smells failure. That's the coach's job to put them into their rightful position: the garbage, energy man.

I agree. Porter is going at least 8 players deep on his rotation but he seems less willing to experiment with his rotation using a player like Dudley. Also Lopez may not be developing as desired but I would like to see him get some more minutes.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Defense is rather a dilemma for Amare right now. Due to his imperfect fundamental, putting "effort" you and many seem to want a la Lou may get him into foul trouble even faster, which'd hurt the team. So, it's easy that he might pace it some how and become particular timid with like 4 fouls.

You just can't ASSUME that he'd be as effective as Lou even when he tried to be as hustle man as Lou.

Bottomline, Amare is very essential to our success even with his imperfections. It's beyong me why many just pull out the "ideal performance level" as the measure to evaluate him and bashes him even when he wins us games with all that imperfection.

"ideal performance level" that's funny. I'd take average performance level on D.

 

[SirStefan32]

I agree. Porter is going at least 8 players deep on his rotation but he seems less willing to experiment with his rotation using a player like Dudley. Also Lopez may not be developing as desired but I would like to see him get some more minutes.

I think porter is one of those coaches that really rewards and punished your minutes by how well you perform in games and practice. He lets players earn their playing time. Lou earned himself 15-20 minutes per game. Singletary earned minutes early in the season. Lopez and Dragic have been sent to the doghouse. Lopez is gonna have to earn playing time because it looks like Porter isn't the type that just hands it out. I think we will see more of Dudley though, he's been getting a few minutes of PT recently and he certainly plays hard.

 

[cly2tw]

Shaq was doing just fine. That's why Pop moved Duncan from Shaq to Amare. Porter correctly instructed the team to go to Amare to attack Duncan who had 5 fouls, and Amare failed THREE times. Not once, not twice, but three times. No basket, no foul.

Nobody is saying ignore him. He is the best offensive player on this team, but he is just not the one you want to go to when you have to score. It worked tonight, but Nash had as much to do with that play as Amare did. Great job by Amare on the previous possession setting up Nash too. We need Amare, and we all want him to be the best. I don't know where you get this idea that we want him ignored on offense.

Going by how people bash him even when he bail us out on offense in crunch time like today, as Chaplin also mentioned?

Fact is, Amare has not had many chances to work on those one-on-one sets like that against one of the best bigman defenders. Hey, even just last year, Dwight Howard got rejected big time doing that against one of the mediocre defender in Amare. And Howard has been the featured man for like 5 years.

Only in this year has Amare started to get more touches to pass from the high post and he has been doing really fine. So, I believe he could also learn from more failures how to solve the case like that against TD, with more chances. His jumper has been off for a couple of games now, but he mostly still does a great job on offense.

 

[cly2tw]

I think porter is one of those coaches that really rewards and punished your minutes by how well you perform in games and practice. He lets players earn their playing time. Lou earned himself 15-20 minutes per game. Singletary earned minutes early in the season. Lopez and Dragic have been sent to the doghouse. Lopez is gonna have to earn playing time because it looks like Porter isn't the type that just hands it out. I think we will see more of Dudley though, he's been getting a few minutes of PT recently and he certainly plays hard.

In the few situations I saw him, he is also smart and has a better jumper. Dudley may become our Bowen once he develops a 3pt shot.

I have no problem if rewarding hard work was his policy. But just some adjustment and knowing the limit of his players would help a lot. In no time, Lou would look like Skinner on offense.

 

[Blackification]

Suns Forward Amar'e Stoudemire

(On bouncing back from foul trouble)

"I kept my composure, watched the game from the bench and learned from my mistakes. I went out there in the fourth quarter and tried to go from there. We did a great job of closing the game out from there. The main thing is to be calm under pressure.

"I play tenacious defense, I’m all over the place helping and trying to block shots. Sometimes I get myself into foul trouble just trying to be physical. I just need to learn from that."

(On late defense against the Hawks)

"The big thing is closing out with rebounds. That allows us to take the lead, and that’s what we did tonight."

Sometimes I think he is just in his own little world

 

[Andrew]

The only bad thing about this was I had to do some things during the second quarter so I couldn't have all my attention on that quarter, plus my stream stopped and fast forwarded right after Shaq made it 99-98, so I missed the 2 jumpers by Nash and the hook by Amare. Saw them during the highlights, god I love the internet because I am downloading this entire game as we speak to watch it tomorrow. I seem to do that now, if I miss any part of a game, I will just simply rewatch it.

 

[Proteus]

The Suns had 2 2nd chance points to the Hawks' 24.

 

[Covert Rain]

Amare is allowing about 14.7 PPG at the PF position (7.6 PPG better then last year) against opposing PF. He also last time I checked in 82games.com was in the top 10 defensively amung PF this season.

He is also averaging 9.26 rebounds per game since getting called out about his rebounding (past 14 games) which is 3 rebounds more per game above his average. Amare has moved up to #9 in rebounding amung PF (he was at #12 earlier this season). His average right now is below league leaders (past 14 games) which are T.Murphy at 11.2 RPG and Tim Duncan at 10.1 RPG but is about even with the rest of the top PF.

I guess I am in the minority being happy with Amare lately. There were 2 things everyone bitched about ....defense and rebounding. He has improved both. He is improving which is what I thought everyone wanted. I only have had one expectation with Amare...that he improve each year and he has delivered so far.

My biggest complaint about Amare is lack of consistancy and not much in terms of post up moves. However, considering his track record for improvement...I have no doubt he can change that too.

 

[Irish]

Besides LB the Suns bench is not looking as solid as it did earlier in the season. I think Barnes' erratic play is a big reason. It especially shows when Grant Hill is not putting up double figure points.

It is odd how much criticism Amare gets on a night when Hill is 1 of 6, Richardson is 3 of 10, Barnes is 2 of 6, and Amundson is scoreless yet the Suns still shoot 51.4%. Yes he is far from perfect, but Amare DID shoot 7 of 11, made 5 assists and had three blocked shots.

BTW, it is still true the Suns don't do as well without Nash, but it is worth noting that Bibby had only 3 assists in 38 minutes on a team of guys who make their own shots.

 

[French Fries]

It is odd how much criticism Amare gets on a night when Hill is 1 of 6, Richardson is 3 of 10, Barnes is 2 of 6, and Amundson is scoreless yet the Suns still shoot 51.4%. Yes he is far from perfect, but Amare DID shoot 7 of 11, made 5 assists and had three blocked shots.

BTW, it is still true the Suns don't do as well without Nash, but it is worth noting that Bibby had only 3 assists in 38 minutes on a team of guys who make their own shots.

mike bibby is officially a pg (and he could probably pass a little) but he really made his career by his shooting. one of them guys who, when their shots starts to fall, he can just flat out score...

about amare's drop on rebounds, if there's any excuse, i'd like to tie it to the decreased number of fg attempts. while i'm not complaining about his effort and passiveness lately (i personally prefer balance over individual milestones), i'd be happier for a consistently productive star who could compare with the best of them out there (bragging rights, so to speak)

 

[AfroSuns]

I agree. Porter is going at least 8 players deep on his rotation but he seems less willing to experiment with his rotation using a player like Dudley. Also Lopez may not be developing as desired but I would like to see him get some more minutes.

Agree, Letting Shaq play 40 minutes during regular season game will not bode well for the post-season.

 

[Irish]

Agree, Letting Shaq play 40 minutes during regular season game will not bode well for the post-season.

Porter may be under orders to win every game. Right now the team is 2 games out of 2nd place and 1 1/2 games out of 9th. There is not much margin for error.

 

[Andrew]

Did anyone else catch this game online? I am always shocked when a home game's stream is from the opponent's network....but then the download is from MY 45, so I get to hear Eddie, who I enjoy.

I kept thinking "Why are they showing the Hawks leaving the bench?" after the game not thinking because its the Hawks network lol.

 

[Andrew]

What's that new tattoo of on Barnes' neck?

 

[da_suns_fan]

Amare is allowing about 14.7 PPG at the PF position (7.6 PPG better then last year) against opposing PF. He also last time I checked in 82games.com was in the top 10 defensively amung PF this season.

He is also averaging 11.5 rebounds per game since getting called out about his rebounding (past 12 games) which is 3 rebounds more per game above his average. Amare has moved up to #9 in rebounding amung PF (he was at #12 earlier this season). His average right now is above the league leaders (past 12 games) which are T.Murphy at 11.2 RPG and Tim Duncan at 10.1 RPG.

I guess I am in the minority being happy with Amare lately. There were 2 things everyone bitched about ....defense and rebounding. He has improved both. He is improving which is what I thought everyone wanted. I only have had one expectation with Amare...that he improve each year and he has delivered so far.

My biggest complaint about Amare is lack of consistancy and not much in terms of post up moves. However, considering his track record for improvement...I have no doubt he can change that too.

?????????????????????????????????????

Amares numbers are way DOWN the past few weeks. I dont know where you got your numbers:

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/gamelog?playerId=1727