Hightower loses starting job or Whis loses credibility

[azsouthendzone]

So by this logic you are saying it should not matter who starts really, because they will do better that the non-starter? Again sounds like excuses for BW and taking credit away from THT for having so far a pretty good year!

DHCF,

Admit it. You love the underdog. (Ex. Shipp).

 

[Shane]

DHCF,

Admit it. You love the underdog. (Ex. Shipp).

I absolutely love the underdog.

But I love me some Well's too. Is he the Overdog?

 

[Big D]

Hightower is the new McCown. God love 'em for his heart and effort he is just flat out lacking in the talent department. Considering neither Wells or Hightower know anything about ball security you have to go with the guy that is clearly more talented with the much higher ceiling and give Beanie the bulk of the carries from here on out.

I like THT a lot and I'm not dissing him but rather just seeing him for what he is. No other team in the NFL has the talent on offense that we do but continually gives loads of touches to one of it's lesser talented players the way we had been doing.

 

[DieHardCardFan]

DHCF,

Admit it. You love the underdog. (Ex. Shipp).

No doubt I was a big Shipp fan! And THT won my fandom last season and keeps doing it this season. That doesnt mean I am not also a big fan of BW! Heck if people were talking about him the way they are Hightower I would be defending him as well.

 

[Shane]

Hightower is the new McCown. God love 'em for his heart and effort he is just flat out lacking in the talent department. Considering neither Wells or Hightower know anything about ball security you have to go with the guy that is clearly more talented with the much higher ceiling and give Beanie the bulk of the carries from here on out.

I like THT a lot and I'm not dissing him but rather just seeing him for what he is. No other team in the NFL has the talent on offense that we do but continually gives loads of touches to one of it's lesser talented players the way we had been doing.

Tim Hightower clearly has Talent. So your statement is completely misguided. Is he as physically gifted as Beanie? No way no how. But he is talented.

You say you aren't dissing but at the same time you are.

 

[DieHardCardFan]

Hightower is the new McCown. God love 'em for his heart and effort he is just flat out lacking in the talent department. Considering neither Wells or Hightower know anything about ball security you have to go with the guy that is clearly more talented with the much higher ceiling and give Beanie the bulk of the carries from here on out.

I like THT a lot and I'm not dissing him but rather just seeing him for what he is. No other team in the NFL has the talent on offense that we do but continually gives loads of touches to one of it's lesser talented players the way we had been doing.

BW has had more carries than THT and has produced at the same rate. So I dont see how it is he who CLEARLY has more talent?

 

[CaptTurbo]

Those are hater glasses. Timmy makes the first guy attempting to tackle him miss a few times in this highlight video. Including in the game clincher that sent us to the SB. Made the first guy fly right by him.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AwLKbvvLH_A&feature=related

The catch is the first guy flew by. I am saying when a hand is put on him he is down. The source is me and my wife I drove crazy. Whenever HT gets the ball as soon as he is touch I scream "Frazier goes down!". So I say it quite a bit during the course of the game. I have never said "Frazier goes down" and followed it up with oh nevermind he is still running.

Of course I started this week 3 so perhaps he pulled a Barry Sanders week 1 and 2 but I doubt it.

 

[Shane]

The catch is the first guy flew by. I am saying when a hand is put on him he is down. The source is me and my wife I drove crazy. Whenever HT gets the ball as soon as he is touch I scream "Frazier goes down!". So I say it quite a bit during the course of the game. I have never said "Frazier goes down" and followed it up with oh nevermind he is still running.

Of course I started this week 3 so perhaps he pulled a Barry Sanders week 1 and 2 but I doubt it.

There is no catch because in your post you clearly stated that "Beanie can make the first guy miss"

Timmy does as well. Pretty simple. So comparing how one goes down on contact to making a guy miss are two different things then right?

 

[Big D]

Tim Hightower clearly has Talent. So your statement is completely misguided. Is he as physically gifted as Beanie? No way no how. But he is talented.

You say you aren't dissing but at the same time you are.

I didn't say the guy has no talent. I said he is just lacking when you compare him to Wells or a lot of the other starting RBs in the NFL. THT is a solid backup/role player. My arguement is simply that I'd prefer the ball go into the hands of the guys on our offense that are more talented than the ol breadtruck, of which we have several, and give Hightower less touches. Thats all.

Like I said I'm not dissing him but at the same time I see him for what he is.

 

[Shane]

I didn't say the guy has no talent. I said he is just lacking when you compare him to Wells or a lot of the other starting RBs in the NFL. THT is a solid backup/role player. My arguement is simply that I'd prefer the ball go into the hands of the guys on our offense that are more talented than the ol breadtruck, of which we have several, and give Hightower less touches. Thats all.

"he is just flat out lacking in the talent department."

I wouldnt say that is exactly a ringing endorsement of having talent.

I respect your opinion bro. But they are performing at an equal rate. So at this point when both RB's are getting 4.4 a pop which is excellent I see no reason to change it.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

That is the same thing that was said about him last year on this message board. Yet he is quite a bit better this season than from last.

But he has fumbled it more than last season too.

 

[Big D]

BW has had more carries than THT and has produced at the same rate. So I dont see how it is he who CLEARLY has more talent?

If you can't see the talent disparity between Hightower and Wells I don't know what to tell you. Production is a wash so whay not give the ball to the younger, less experienced guy that has more upside, a higher ceiling, or MORE TALENT or whatever phrasing you want use.

 

[Shane]

But he has fumbled it much than last season.

Absolutely he has and it needs to stop. The only problem is that the guy who is more physically gifted lays it on the carpet even more often.

 

[Shane]

If you can't see the talent disparity between Hightower and Wells I don't know what to tell you. Production is a wash so whay not give the ball to the younger, less experienced guy that has more upside, a higher ceiling, or MORE TALENT or whatever phrasing you want use.

Age is a wash. They are 21 and 23 respectively both super young and has no bearing.

Why change what is working? If what you are doing is working and getting you results why tinker with it? Just to satisfy your fan curiosity?

 

[Big D]

Age is a wash. They are 21 and 23 respectively both super young and has no bearing.

Why change what is working? If what you are doing is working and getting you results why tinker with it? Just to satisfy your fan curiosity?

So you don't think the offense could be any better than what we have seen? We should never strive to make improvements? We are bottom 6 in the league is rushing. As a whole offense we are middle of the pack right now. We had a MUCH better offense last season.

Also we're 8-5 and haven't locked anything up. Our offense just scored a whopping 9 pts. There is plenty of room for improvement as far as I'm concerned. I think the first step on the way to that improvement is lessening the number of touches a guy like THT is getting and get the ball into the hands of our more talented palyers more often.

 

[moklerman]

Hightower has had 18 runs of 10+ yards with 0 TD's.
Wells has had 21 runs of 10+ yards with 3 TD's.

 

[nashman]

Beanie should start and get the bulk of the carries and TH should still get carries no one is saying bench the guy. He has had a good year no reason to bench him just start Wells and get him carries and involved early in a game. Its hard for a guy who is used to starting and getting plenty of carries to break off great stats in situtational downs. Situational backs are usually the less talented guys carries! Its really a dumb debate as anyone with eyeballs can see the talent of Wells is much better than that of a very hard working TH. No one is saying TH should not still be involved in the offense, they just need to give the ball to Wells MORE!

 

[Covert Rain]

So by this logic you are saying it should not matter who starts really, because they will do better that the non-starter? Again sounds like excuses for BW and taking credit away from THT for having so far a pretty good year!

What?? I have no clue what your reading. I said that HT is a product of having more of an opportunity. He is not coming in on just 3rd down sets this year or certain running sets....hence he should be producing more. Producing more and being good are two different things.

Also, define good year? I guess when your looking up from being a bottom dweller in the run game any improvement looks good. He is having a better year which he should with more opportunity and more quality carries.

With HT as our starter we are still not one of the best running teams in the NFL. It's not like HT has distinguished himself from BW who is a rookie. BW is producing more in the backup role then HT did in the backup role. So, it's not a stretch to believe he could do the same in the starters role.

All I am saying is that almost all the signs point to BW having a much bigger upside and more ability. What I am saying is give BW a chance for a couple games and see what he can do with the same opportunity. HT is not great RB and you know what you have in him.

 

[Crazy Canuck]

Hightower has had 18 runs of 10+ yards with 0 TD's.
Wells has had 21 runs of 10+ yards with 3 TD's.

How many of TIM H's runs were on our side of the 50 yard line?

How many of Beanie's runs were on their side of the 50 yard line?

(We all know that Beanie hasn't broken away on a 55/60 yard scamper to the end zone)

 

[Covert Rain]

How many of TIM H's runs were on our side of the 50 yard line?

How many of Beanie's runs were on their side of the 50 yard line?

(We all know that Beanie hasn't broken away on a 55/60 yard scamper to the end zone)

It's not like TH has broken alot of long runs. That doesn't mean a thing. TH also has 1 more fumble then BW now.

Here is what is telling to me.TH has done nothing to separate himself from BW who is younger, more inexperienced and has a bigger upside. These stats looking very similar to me.

Opp Side of Field (0-19 yard line)
TH - 6 TD, 8 First Downs
BW - 5 TD 6 First Downs

Opp Side of Field (20-49 yard line)
TH - 0 TD, 7 First Downs
BW - 0 TD, 7 First Downs

Own (21 - 50 yard line)
TH 0 TD, 11 First Downs
BW - 0 TD, 13 First Downs

Own (0-20 yard line)
TH 0 TD, 2 Firsts
BW 0 TD, 3 Firsts

Not only is BW producing almost identical in a backup role but he is also performing better as a backup then TH did in that same role last year.

 

[DieHardCardFan]

What?? I have no clue what your reading. I said that HT is a product of having more of an opportunity. He is not coming in on just 3rd down sets this year or certain running sets....hence he should be producing more. Producing more and being good are two different things.

Also, define good year? I guess when your looking up from being a bottom dweller in the run game any improvement looks good. He is having a better year which he should with more opportunity and more quality carries.

With HT as our starter we are still not one of the best running teams in the NFL. It's not like HT has distinguished himself from BW who is a rookie. BW is producing more in the backup role then HT did in the backup role. So, it's not a stretch to believe he could do the same in the starters role.

All I am saying is that almost all the signs point to BW having a much bigger upside and more ability. What I am saying is give BW a chance for a couple games and see what he can do with the same opportunity. HT is not great RB and you know what you have in him.

I was reading your post! BW gets more of the carries, but you are saying that he would be better than the 4.4 ypc he has if he had what you call "more quality" carries. Sorry but that doesnt really hold up to me. THT is also averaging 4.4 ypc and to say that he is only averaging that because a depth chart is pretty asinine in my opinion.

And we would not be one of the best running teams in the NFL regardless of who was starting. This team is not built around the run. We have many less attempts I would guess than most teams. But we do have two RB's averaging 4.4 per carry, personally I dont think that is to shabby!

You see things the way many do on this board and thats cool. I guess we have another classic case of fans knowing more than coaches.

 

[DieHardCardFan]

It's not like HT has broken alot of long runs. That doesn't mean a thing. HT also has 1 more fumble then BW now.

Here is what is telling to me. HT has done nothing to separate himself from BW who is younger, more inexperienced and has a bigger upside. These stats looking very similar to me.

Opp Side of Field (0-19 yard line)
HT - 6 TD, 8 First Downs
BW - 5 TD 6 First Downs

Opp Side of Field (20-49 yard line)
HT - 0 TD, 7 First Downs
BW - 0 TD, 7 First Downs

Own (21 - 50 yard line)
HT 0 TD, 11 First Downs
BW - 0 TD, 13 First Downs

Own (0-20 yard line)
HT 0 TD, 2 Firsts
BW 0 TD, 3 Firsts

Not only is BW producing almost identical in a backup role but he is also performing better as a backup then HT did in that same role last year.

BW is not playing as "back-up" !!!!! They are splitting carries pretty close with BW getting more. That is not a backup! This whole who is the starter and who is the backup is a bit outdated in this era of NFL football when several teams are using a two back system and giving pretty close to the same attempts to both. This is not still a league where every team has a work horse that carries the whole load with a second back that comes in and changes the speed of the game a little from time to time.

 

[Covert Rain]

I was reading your post! BW gets more of the carries, but you are saying that he would be better than the 4.4 ypc he has if he had what you call "more quality" carries. Sorry but that doesnt really hold up to me. THT is also averaging 4.4 ypc and to say that he is only averaging that because a depth chart is pretty asinine in my opinion.

I am not sure that you were but I don't get that. If you are bringing in BW in obvious run situations and certain sets...the defense knows what is coming. The fact that he produces almost identical to TH should tell you something.

And we would not be one of the best running teams in the NFL regardless of who was starting. This team is not built around the run. We have many less attempts I would guess than most teams. But we do have two RB's averaging 4.4 per carry, personally I dont think that is to shabby!

True but it's not like you look at TH and say wow...if that guy was on a running team he would be a stud. Not unless we are seeing two completely different players.

You see things the way many do on this board and thats cool. I guess we have another classic case of fans knowing more than coaches.

The same can be said of those backing TH. By the way Whiz has a reputation dating back to his time with the Steelers of playing Vets over Rookies regardless of how good the rookie is. So, by making the assumption that he thinks TH is better the BW is another classic case of fans thinking they know what the coach's reasoning is.

BW is not playing as "back-up" !!!!! They are splitting carries pretty close with BW getting more. That is not a backup! This whole who is the starter and who is the backup is a bit outdated in this era of NFL football when several teams are using a two back system and giving pretty close to the same attempts to both. This is not still a league where every team has a work horse that carries the whole load with a second back that comes in and changes the speed of the game a little from time to time.

Oh come on. Your not being honest. Tell me..how many times have you seen the Cards go a quarter before they insert Hightower at the start of a game? How many times has that happened to BW? How many times has BW set out several series? It might even out in the end but usually that is because they are not getting what they need from TH so they give BW a shot at some point in the game. That doesn't sound like the starter or featured back to me or whatever you want to call it.

Honestly, I just want to see what BW can do as the featured back. I don't think that is too much to ask considering TH isn't producing anymore then a rookie at this point. I am not saying BW would do a better job. Nothing might change but at least you can say you tried it.

 

[Crazy Canuck]

It's not like HT has broken alot of long runs. That doesn't mean a thing. HT also has 1 more fumble then BW now.

Here is what is telling to me. HT has done nothing to separate himself from BW who is younger, more inexperienced and has a bigger upside. These stats looking very similar to me.

Opp Side of Field (0-19 yard line)
HT - 6 TD, 8 First Downs
BW - 5 TD 6 First Downs

Opp Side of Field (20-49 yard line)
HT - 0 TD, 7 First Downs
BW - 0 TD, 7 First Downs

Own (21 - 50 yard line)
HT 0 TD, 11 First Downs
BW - 0 TD, 13 First Downs

Own (0-20 yard line)
HT 0 TD, 2 Firsts
BW 0 TD, 3 Firsts

Not only is BW producing almost identical in a backup role but he is also performing better as a backup then HT did in that same role last year.

You are supporting your argument with solid situational facts, he was simply making a factual statement without context.

I leave it to Whis with input for the other "O" coaches to make the best decision as to how to use the tandem. Wouldn't be a bit surprised if one or both pick up 100+ games in the next two weeks.

 

[DieHardCardFan]

I am not sure that you were but I don't get that. If you are bringing in BW in obvious run situations and certain sets...the defense knows what is coming. The fact that he produces almost identical to HT should tell you something.



True but it's not like you look at HT and say wow...if that guy was on a running team he would be a stud. Not unless we are seeing two completely different players.



The same can be said of those backing HT. By the way Whiz has a reputation dating back to his time with the Steelers of playing Vets over Rookies regardless of how good the rookie is. So, by making the assumption that he thinks HT is better the BW is another classic case of fans thinking they know what the coach's reasoning is.



Oh come on. Your not being honest. Tell me..how many times have you seen the Cards go a quarter before they insert High Tower at the start of a game? How many times has that happened to BW? How many times has BW set out several series? It might even out in the end but usually that is because they are not getting what they need from HT so they give BW a shot at some point in the game. That doesn't sound like the starter or featured back to me or whatever you want to call it.

Honestly, I just want to see what BW can do as the featured back. I don't think that is too much to ask considering HT isn't producing anymore then a rookie at this point. I am not saying BW would do a better job. Nothing might change but at least you can say you tried it.

Look I dont think anyone would argue that everyone expects BW to be a stud one day. All I am saying I am tired of the excuses and taking for credit from THT. BW is getting plenty of chances and I for one am not disappointed in what he has given us as a team. But as all around players, right now THT in my opinion is more valuable to the team for winning football games.

I personally think they have done a pretty good job of putting BW in the game during lots of different situations. Early on, I would agree with you 100% that when BW came in everyone knew that it was likely a run play. But I just dont think that argument would hold water any longer.

Go Cards! (as in the team)