How Great is the 2017 draft class?

[3rdside]

Yes, we get it. Your point, best I can tell, is that it's a team game when your guy loses and he's a great player when his team wins.

See comment above about 'probable conclusion' - I might be wrong but it sure is uncanny what happened to Phoenix in '13-'14 and what's happening in Miami right now.

 

[AzStevenCal]

See comment above about 'probable conclusion' - I might be wrong but it sure is uncanny what happened to Phoenix in '13-'14 and what's happening in Miami right now.

No, it's like your picking a day and calling your point made and ignoring all the other days. Goran has a losing record, by far, as a starter in the NBA. No short term winning streak changes that. But watch them play and watch us play and tell me they aren't both playing well. And it's nothing but BS to suggest either one of them is putting up empty stats. We're a bad team. Without Bledsoe we are historically bad.

 

[3rdside]

Did Marbury win or did he put up empty stats?

 

[3rdside]

The point is some players generate synergistic results from intangibles - leadership, goodwill, hockey assists, pace, spacing, whatever - and some players don't.

Dragic seems to be the former Bledsoe seems to be the latter.

I can't prove it which is why I'm using the language I'm using but again, I think it's probably safe to draw a probably probable conclusion.

And the argument isn't over yet as we need to see what happens next year and beyond but so far my opinions on Dragic and Bledsoe are probably right.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

Did Marbury win or did he put up empty stats?

Well he was on at least a couple playoff teams to include one of his 2 years with the Suns.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

The point is some players generate synergistic results from intangibles - leadership, goodwill, hockey assists, pace, spacing, whatever - and some players don't.

Dragic seems to be the former Bledsoe seems to be the latter.

I can't prove it which is why I'm using the language I'm using but again, I think it's probably safe to draw a probably probable conclusion.

And the argument isn't over yet as we need to see what happens next year and beyond but so far my opinions on Dragic and Bledsoe are probably right.

Both teams have very similar offensive efficiency and the Suns actually edge out Miami in that regard. If Dragic was so much better in those areas I would think his team would have a better offense than us and they don't. The Suns also play with more pace as well...

 

[3rdside]

No, it's like your picking a day and calling your point made and ignoring all the other days. Goran has a losing record, by far, as a starter in the NBA. No short term winning streak changes that. But watch them play and watch us play and tell me they aren't both playing well. And it's nothing but BS to suggest either one of them is putting up empty stats. We're a bad team. Without Bledsoe we are historically bad.

I'm saying that if you build a team around Dragic you will win - it wasn't his team after IT arrived and it wasn't his team coming into the house of Wade.

Miami is his team now, they are winning they will continue to build around him next year so let's watch this space.

 

[Russ Smith]

There's some ppl saying that was Brian Bowen's parents LOL. Apparently there's no audio of what Lavar said but who knows.

Yeah I'm sure he actually said it was joking about it not being the real one. That may very well have been Bowen's parents. What's funny is ESPN saying they were misinformed as if the guy was claiming to be LaVar Ball. By this point in the season how could anybody working for ESPN in College Basketball NOT know what LaVar Ball looks like?

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

I'm saying that if you build a team around Dragic you will win - it wasn't his team after IT arrived and it wasn't his team coming into the house of Wade.

Miami is his team now, they are winning they will continue to build around him next year so let's watch this space.

Whiteside is the guy they are building around and rightfully so. Yes Dragic is their best offensive player, but Whiteside is their best all around player.

 

[3rdside]

Whiteside is the guy they are building around and rightfully so. Yes Dragic is their best offensive player, but Whiteside is their best all around player.

Probably right but the players they brought in were specifically those that complemented Dragic - Miami worked out they needed to build around him and not Whiteside.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Probably right but the players they brought in were specifically those that complemented Dragic - Miami worked out they needed to build around him and not Whiteside.

I don't see that at all? And wasn't it Miami that was looking to trade Goran just 6 weeks ago?

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

Probably right but the players they brought in were specifically those that complemented Dragic - Miami worked out they needed to build around him and not Whiteside.

OK assuming you are right that they are building around Dragic, part of that is putting good defensive players around him to hide his deficiencies on that end of the floor. That sounds more like a good job constructing a roster than it does Dragic carrying his team to wins. Unfortunately this Suns team isn't well constructed and isn't well coached either. Don't overlook the effect roster construction and coaching have on a team's ability to win.

 

[3rdside]

I don't see that at all? And wasn't it Miami that was looking to trade Goran just 6 weeks ago?

That was prior to the win streak.

http://allucanheat.com/2017/02/10/miami-heats-winning-streak-just-numbers/

"Brought in some younger talent that his point guard could finally run the floor with".

 

[Phrazbit]

See comment above about 'probable conclusion' - I might be wrong but it sure is uncanny what happened to Phoenix in '13-'14 and what's happening in Miami right now.

Dragic isn't a bad player, but your claim that Bledsoe has more talent around him right now than Dragic does in Miami displays such a laughable level of bias that it sinks any logical argument you're trying to make.

The Suns in 13/14 were no where near as good when Bledsoe went down. Dragic put up huge stats while Bledsoe was injured... and the team tumbled out of the playoff race.

Then you've got the 12/13 Suns, captained by Dragic, that team sure lit it up eh? And what about the massive disappointment that was the Heat last season? It is easy to make an argument that Dragic just wins games... when you completely ignore the seasons and stretches where he and his teams stunk.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

That was prior to the win streak.

http://allucanheat.com/2017/02/10/miami-heats-winning-streak-just-numbers/

"Brought in some younger talent that his point guard could finally run the floor with".

All that line proves is that Dragic is their best player at leading the break and as their PG that should be expected.

 

[3rdside]

Dragic isn't a bad player, but your claim that Bledsoe has more talent around him right now than Dragic does in Miami displays such a laughable level of bias that it sinks any logical argument you're trying to make.

The Suns in 13/14 were no where near as good when Bledsoe went down. Dragic put up huge stats while Bledsoe was injured... and the team tumbled out of the playoff race.

Then you've got the 12/13 Suns, captained by Dragic, that team sure lit it up eh? And what about the massive disappointment that was the Heat last season? It is easy to make an argument that Dragic just wins games... when you completely ignore the seasons and stretches where he and his teams stunk.

1. Nice try but it doesn't even come close to sinking my argument. If you'd asked me, along with most other NBA fans, which roster was better at the start of the season I think there's a better than even chance that we'd all have said Phoenix.

Funny that nearly to a man the Miami players are having career years (Waiters, Johnson, Johnson, Winslow, Ellington, Richardson) eerily similar to the synergy effect I keep talking about.

2. Take away any good player from another good player and the team will suffer - yours is a non-argument.

3. 12-13 was his first real year as a starter - if you look how many minutes he'd logged as a starter in the NBA up until then it was tiny compared to most other lead point guards.

4. He was part of club dominant Wade's team - it wasn't his team like it is this year. I repeatedly told you he needed time to adjust - he never got the time, instead he got the team and is proving my point even better than I thought he would.

 

[Phrazbit]

1. Nice try but it doesn't even come close to sinking my argument. If you'd asked me, along with most other NBA fans, which roster was better at the start of the season I think there's a better than even chance that we'd all have said Phoenix.

Funny that nearly to a man the Miami players are having career years (Waiters, Johnson, Johnson, Winslow, Ellington, Richardson) eerily similar to the synergy effect I keep talking about.

2. Take away any good player from another good player and the team will suffer - yours is a non-argument.

3. 12-13 was his first real year as a starter - if you look how many minutes he'd logged as a starter in the NBA up until then it was tiny compared to most other lead point guards.

4. He was part of club dominant Wade's team - it wasn't his team like it is this year. I repeatedly told you he needed time to adjust - he never got the time, instead he got the team and is proving my point even better than I thought he would.

Yes, it kills your argument. Miami was considered a possible playoff contender, we were a consensus bottom 5 team.

http://www.si.com/nba/2016/10/24/nba-power-rankings-preseason-warriors-cavaliers

https://www.numberfire.com/nba/news/10776/2016-17-nba-power-rankings-preseason-edition

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/17873365/nba-power-rankings-preseason-edition

http://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/n...s-open-2016-17-on-top-high-hopes-for-celtics/

If you find me ONE preseason ranking that put us ahead of Miami I will downgrade your assertion from, "absurd" to merely "silly". No one in their right mind thinks Bledsoe has more quality around him right now than Dragic does.

Also, get over it, he's been gone for 2 years, it is over. If we'd kept him we might be a hair closer to mediocre, yippie skip.

 

[3rdside]

Fair enough but you ignore every other point I made.

And I see your 2016-17 power rankings and raise you the 2013-14 ones:

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www..../nba/273275-2013-2014-nba-power-rankings.html

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/hoopshabit.com/2013/10/04/nba-2013-2014-preseason-power-rankings/amp/

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/synd...14-nba-power-rankings-summer-edition.amp.html


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[3rdside]

And in your first link the suns rank 27 to miami's 23 (hardly a chasm of difference) yet they're playoff bound and we're even worse than 27th.

That supports my argument, not yours.




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[3rdside]

Also, get over it, he's been gone for 2 years, it is over. If we'd kept him we might be a hair closer to mediocre, yippie skip.

It's a bit deeper than me being a Dragic homer as I've said multiple times already - it's about McD not having a clue mainly, supporting his dismissal at contract end, and raising a broader point of who we want as our point guard going forward i.e. one who generates fast paced, winning team basketball (Dragic as relevant reference point, Ball as a draft pick) and not Bledsoe who doesn't.





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[3rdside]

I really don't want to have to write that last part again, again lol and I'm starting to write posts like girls write text messages. Bed time!


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[CardsSunsDbacks]

It's a bit deeper than me being a Dragic homer as I've said multiple times already - it's about McD not having a clue mainly, supporting his dismissal at contract end, and raising a broader point of who we want as our point guard going forward i.e. one who generates fast paced, winning team basketball (Dragic as relevant reference point, Ball as a draft pick) and not Bledsoe who doesn't.





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It's getting old seeing you literally cherry pick 2 seasons out of his entire career as if it some sort of proof that he is just some amazing "winner". The dude isn't even on a winning team right now and there is far from any guarantee that Miami will even make the playoffs right now.

If Miami had an amazing offense and that was why they were winning these games lately than I would fully agree with you, but that isn't the case. The Suns actually have a slightly better offense this season, but Miami has the better defense. If you are going to argue that Dragic is the one that is making the difference between the two defenses than you are probably delusional.

 

[3rdside]

Yes, I'm delusional. Thanks for finalising the argument - and in some style no less - because I haven't posted any evidence to date and I haven't said I'm open to being proved wrong.

[emoji106]




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[CardsSunsDbacks]

Yes, I'm delusional. Thanks for finalising the argument - and in some style no less - because I haven't posted any evidence to date and I haven't said I'm open to being proved wrong.

[emoji106]




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I said "probably delusional". There is still a chance that you aren't

 

[AzStevenCal]

Yes, I'm delusional. Thanks for finalising the argument - and in some style no less - because I haven't posted any evidence to date and I haven't said I'm open to being proved wrong.

You really haven't. And quoting some fan post to prove they built around Goran was a good example of how flawed each of your arguments have been. Go check the dates every player on that roster became a Heat and tell me about all the young players they brought in with an eye to building around Dragic. It's a myth, just like everything else you've said. The only argument you have that MIGHT have merit is about McDonough. I disagree with it but there's enough smoke to call it a fire.