How Great is the 2017 draft class?

[SirStefan32]

I get what 3rdside is saying. When it comes to point guards, it's not just about stats. Watching Dragic run the show, the offense always seems to flow better than watching Bledsoe. I think Bledsoe may be a better overall player, but Dragic is clearly a better point guard. For me, it's an eye test- you either pass it or you fail it. As long as he has the ball in his hands, Dragic passes the test. Basketball just moves better with Dragic than it does with Bledsoe. I think 3rdside was making a bit of an analogy between Bledsoe and Dragic and Fults and Ball. We can argue about Dragic and Bledsoe for years, and nobody's opinion would change, but 3rdside's argument is interesting and relevant to the more pressing discussion of Fults vs. Ball.

 

[3rdside]

Thank you SirStefan.

Steve - to say SS missed some of my posts is more than a touch ironic when it's you who's completely missed the point, and to say that I haven't provided evidence is straight up insulting.

Go check the dates every player on that roster became a Heat and tell me about all the young players they brought in with an eye to building around Dragic.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/MIA/2016.html

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/MIA/2017.html


Miami Heat 2016-17 Players In: (Only those playing playing 'Significant Minutes' are listed)

Dion Waiters - 30.9 MPG
James Johnson - 26.4 MPG
Wayne Ellington - 26.0 MPG
Rodney McGruder - 26.0 MPG

That's 109.3 minutes of combined playing time from new Miami players - or 46% of the 240 minutes of total court time available (5 players x 48 minutes).


Here's more evidence supporting my argument if you can be bothered to read it:


Dragic 'Synergy' Effect: (Only those playing playing 'Significant Minutes' and aren't in their rookie or second season are listed)

Career Averages Pre 2016 - 2017 (Pts / Rbd / Ast)
James Johnson - 9 Seasons - 6.4 / 3.2 / 1.7
Wayne Ellington - 9 Seasons - 7.1 / 2.1 / 1.1
Dion Waiters - 6 Seasons - 12.6 / 2.5 / 2.4
Hassan Whiteside - 2 Seasons - 13.0 / 10.9 / 0.3
Tyler Johnson - 2 Seasons - 7.3 / 2.8 / 1.8


This Season in Miami (Pts / Rbd / Ast)
James Johnson - 12.1 / 4.9 / 3.4
Wayne Ellington - 10.8 / 2.1 / 1.3
Dion Waiters - 16.1 / 3.5 / 4.4
Hassan Whiteside - 16.6 / 14.1 0.7
Tyler Johnson - 13.8 / 4.2 / 3.3


I've even had the courtesy to repeatedly say I'm drawing probable conclusions and am open to being proven wrong with the benefit of time and more evidence...Far more than anything you've even remotely come close to providing other than calling my argument a myth.

So boo to you, sir.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I've even had the courtesy to repeatedly say I'm drawing probable conclusions and am open to being proven wrong with the benefit of time and more evidence...Far more than anything you've even remotely come close to providing other than calling my argument a myth.

So boo to you, sir.

I deleted my comment prior to you posting this one because I decided I wanted no further part in the continuing drama but I guess you were in the process of responding. I still don't want a part of the drama although I'll admit, I hadn't expected you to include a pair of 30 year olds in support of the statement that "they added younger talent" to run with Goran.

But regardless, I surrender. Goran is special and Bledsoe's stats are mostly meaningless. I'll also admit that I've stopped reading your posts in their entirety so if you've backtracked on your earlier position, I have indeed missed it.

 

[3rdside]

The article said younger not young - Waiters, Johnson, Ellington and McGruder are 25, 29, 29 and 25. Dragic is 30, departees Wade, Deng, Joe Johnson and Bosh are 34, 30, 34 and 31.

 

[3rdside]

But regardless, I surrender. Goran is special and Bledsoe's stats are mostly meaningless. I'll also admit that I've stopped reading your posts in their entirety so if you've backtracked on your earlier position, I have indeed missed it.

Genius - you insult my argument without providing one shred of evidence other than "Bledsoe is better because stats and I said so" and then admit you don't even read what i was saying in the first place....and at no point have I backtracked.

 

[AzStevenCal]

The article said younger not young - Waiters, Johnson, Ellington and McGruder are 25, 29, 29 and 25. Dragic is 30, departees Wade, Deng, Joe Johnson and Bosh are 34, 30, 34 and 31.

It said "brought in some younger talent" and you're seriously suggesting she meant younger than Goran? Nice try. And they tried to trade Goran AFTER acquiring those kids so I don't see how that supports your "building around Dragic" claim.

 

[3rdside]

It said "brought in some younger talent" and you're seriously suggesting she meant younger than Goran? Nice try. And they tried to trade Goran AFTER acquiring those kids so I don't see how that supports your "building around Dragic" claim.

Steve - they brought in the younger players in the offseason....to build around their 'star' player Dragic.

What happened after that is they started off slow, they talked about trading Dragic, they go on a massive tear and realise Dragic is special after all so decide not to trade him and will build around him even further next year instead.

Ignoring Dragic entirely, what part of 25, 25, 29 and 29 is not younger than 34, 34, 31 and 30?

 

[AzStevenCal]

Are you drunk?

Stupid, maybe - drunk, no. Good night.

 

[3rdside]

Or temporarily in a red mist - I'm not even posting arguments now, just facts, and you're still coming at me telling me I'm wrong.

 

[Russ Smith]

Fultz sat out the WSU loss yesterday, they said the knee was sore after playing last week and didn't respond to treatment, his status for the 2 games next week(UCLA wed, USC Sat) is unknown.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Fultz sat out the WSU loss yesterday, they said the knee was sore after playing last week and didn't respond to treatment, his status for the 2 games next week(UCLA wed, USC Sat) is unknown.

Well, there's another player I'd take off my wanted list. It's part of why I'd pass on Smith jr too, I just don't want another high injury risk player. Even if it's just chronic tendonitis as that almost always becomes something scary when it comes to basketball players.

 

[Russ Smith]

Well, there's another player I'd take off my wanted list. It's part of why I'd pass on Smith jr too, I just don't want another high injury risk player. Even if it's just chronic tendonitis as that almost always becomes something scary when it comes to basketball players.

to me it depends what the truth is. If the knee is just sore you can get it checked out so unless it's something like what Brandon Roy had, not too worried. The bigger concern to me is the rumors were he was just shutting it down to rest for the draft, then he played 2 games so those rumors were gone. Now he missed another and nobody knows if he'll play against SC or UCLA this week. If he skips those 2 games you get concerned, if it turns out he's not really hurt he's just shutting it down, then you have a different concern although you can clearly argue shutting it down is smart.

I'll wait and see if he plays against UCLA on Wed or not. UCLA did something similar with Welsh earlier in the year he was cleared to play but they sat him 2 more games to let his knee get more treatment so it's not unprecedented but Romar said the doctors didn't clear Fultz and that he was unable to do much of anything all week despite having an entire week to rest. that's a little dicey. I hope he plays Wed we didn't get to see much the first time he and Lonzo played I'm hoping Fultz plays and is more engaged in the rematch.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I don't know what would be worse, a questionable knee or the idea that blaming your absence on a knee problem is the way to go. I actually don't have a problem with him sitting out, unwilling to risk injury, as long as he's not halfway there already. When your team is that bad I wouldn't blame someone for protecting their future at this stage of the season.

 

[Russ Smith]

I don't know what would be worse, a questionable knee or the idea that blaming your absence on a knee problem is the way to go. I actually don't have a problem with him sitting out, unwilling to risk injury, as long as he's not halfway there already. When your team is that bad I wouldn't blame someone for protecting their future at this stage of the season.

Right that's my point if he's shutting it down, shut it down. Don't play 2 games and then sit again because now people are really worried that a 19 year old kid can't play Thur and Sat and then be able to play by next Sunday. That makes it sound worse.

It also would bug me if he is really able to play and is just waffling on shutting it down or not since that would be unfair to the team.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Well, there's another player I'd take off my wanted list. It's part of why I'd pass on Smith jr too, I just don't want another high injury risk player. Even if it's just chronic tendonitis as that almost always becomes something scary when it comes to basketball players.

So you're removing three of the best players. Got it. Huh?!?

 

[AzStevenCal]

So you're removing three of the best players. Got it. Huh?!?

Yeah, but I'm not the GM so we have that going for us at least. But sure, I see no problem with factoring in injury risks.

Maybe I'm overreacting because I went the other way initially on Bledsoe and now we've lost him for much of two seasons with more of that likely in his future. This pick is too valuable IMO to accept added risk unless the payoff is unquestionably huge. Smith has huge flaws in his game in addition to a Bledsoe-like medical history.

 

[Russ Smith]

It's an interesting draft now. Ball has the dad issue, Fultz has the knee issue. And Josh Jackson is now being charged with misdemeanor vandalism or something similar for kicking a car door and a taillight of some girl outside a bar in December. She's apparently the same girl who's been involved in charges with teammate LaGerald Vick. I dout NBA teams will worry about it too much but another kid in the draft with a question.

 

[Mainstreet]

I'm losing count. So are the possible question marks: Markelle Fultz (sore knee), Lonzo Ball (father), Josh Jackson (charged misdemeanor) and Dennis Smith Jr (past ACL injury) ?

I'm beginning to wonder who is left.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I'm losing count. So are the possible question marks: Markelle Fultz (sore knee), Lonzo Ball (father), Josh Jackson (charged misdemeanor) and Dennis Smith Jr (past ACL injury) ?

I'm beginning to wonder who is left.

I wouldn't take Jackson off the list just yet and we'd need more than "pre-draft fear" to ignore Fultz and Ball, but I'd certainly be very cautious with each of them.

As I've said before, I wouldn't even consider Smith and not just because of the injury history. The way he plays is conducive to future injuries and that team is talented but a mess; he's part of that disappointing mess. This is too strong a draft to waste a top pick on a player with that many flaws.

 

[GatorAZ]

Smith Jr is showing no signs of any physical issues so far. His explosiveness is off the charts.

Maybe he's one of those kids that developed a few years too early like D-Rose.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Smith Jr is showing no signs of any physical issues so far. His explosiveness is off the charts.

These are the facts of the case and they are undisputed. Still wouldn't touch him.

 

[3rdside]

Could Ball and Bledsoe co-exist like Dragic and Bledsoe did back in the day?

I could get comfortable with that.

PG Ball / Bledsoe / Ulis
SG Bledsoe / Booker
SF Booker / Warren / Bender
PF Chriss / Warren / Bender
C Chandler / Len / Willams

 

[Phrazbit]

If we draft Ball (or Fultz) then we should trade Bledsoe, try to get bundle of picks, maybe a late lotto pick and quality vet or something. I think Booker should stay at the 2, if we get a PG then Booker and that player are both potential all-stars that we need to give all the time together possible.

 

[Mainstreet]

I wouldn't take Jackson off the list just yet and we'd need more than "pre-draft fear" to ignore Fultz and Ball, but I'd certainly be very cautious with each of them.

As I've said before, I wouldn't even consider Smith and not just because of the injury history. The way he plays is conducive to future injuries and that team is talented but a mess; he's part of that disappointing mess. This is too strong a draft to waste a top pick on a player with that many flaws.

In regard to Smith, I can't help but remember when the Suns drafted Mario Bennett with a late first round pick. He was one of the most physically gifted basketball players I have seen, who suffered an ACL injury while in college. Almost Sean Kemp good. However, he was never the same player in the NBA. I don't think the Suns should take a chance on a player with such an injury with a low pick. IMO, too much risk. I could be totally wrong with the advances in medicine but why take the chance early in the draft.

 

[AzStevenCal]

In regard to Smith, I can't help but remember when the Suns drafted Mario Bennett with a late first round pick. He was one of the most physically gifted basketball players I have seen, who suffered an ACL injury while in college. Almost Sean Kemp good. However, he was never the same player in the NBA. I don't think the Suns should take a chance on a player with such an injury with a low pick. IMO, too much risk. I could be totally wrong with the advances in medicine but why take the chance early in the draft.

Yeah, that's where I'm at especially when you're talking about a super athlete like Smith that plays the game like he does. The risk is too great with a top 5 pick or thereabouts. Not that it would ever happen but if he were still there and you had a pick in the teens, it would be worth the gamble.

We have Len, Chriss and Bender that are all top 8 picks and we're not sure any of them will be a star. I'd like to see us take the safe route unless the high end is just so ridiculous that you have to take that leap. And that's not Smith.