How Great is the 2017 draft class?

[Phrazbit]

Markkanen would never be the first player chosen even if he had a 7'6 wingspan.

He is too slow, lack of explosiveness and not particularly good at anything besides shooting.

Dirk was much more athletic.

A good comparison for Markkanen would be Mehmet Okur.

That is ridiculous...

Markkanen's dribbling ability is better than Dirk's was at the same age and better than Okur's was... ever. I'm not saying he is going to be anywhere near what Dirk was but he is far more comparable as a prospect to him than the plodding Okur.

 

[3rdside]

We are not ugly to watch, are you even watching? Also we are 9th in scoring. The only reason we are not higher is because we are the 4th worst 3pt shooting team in the league.

It could also be that Dragic has better teammates, veterans and plays in a weak conference.

The Suns are 13-10 against the East. Miami is 21-21 against the East.

You realize that assists also have something to do with your teammates? When you pass but your teammates dribble 3 times before scoring, well.. if your teammates shoot 34% from 3 instead of 39%.

Yeah sure since no numbers can support your biased pro-Dragic stance, it suddenly comes down to inexplicable phenoms like "likability" (as you always claimed, where?)

Dragic is so liked among his teammates he was about to get punched by IT and had the locker room turn on him.

Are you Russian German by any chance? I tend to like the Germans, the Russians less so - just based on experience, not a racist thing or anything (although I do hold the Germans in almighty regard, the Russians less so!). It might explain why you're so punchy...

Yes we are ugly - we're second last in assists, say no more, and 3rd in pace 9th in scoring is a bad correlation and for Philly, Brooklyn and the lakers it's even worse.

Once again, I hear you on Dragic, my argument may be wrong on him, but he was never in the class of harden or Nash anyway. It was / is just an argument.

And Dragic is likeable - I liked him, we liked him and Miami like him. Morris bros are dislikable, so is Kobe, so are many others...Dragic is not even close to fitting that bill but either way, I'm still trying to work out what actually defines an 'elevating player' because statistics alone don't tell you the answer....likability, while very loose and minor, might.


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[ColdPickleNachos]

Are you Russian German by any chance? I tend to like the Germans, the Russians less so - just based on experience, not a racist thing or anything (although I do hold the Germans in almighty regard, the Russians less so!). It might explain why you're so punchy...

Yes we are ugly - we're second last in assists, say no more, and 3rd in pace 9th in scoring is a bad correlation and for Philly, Brooklyn and the lakers it's even worse.

Once again, I hear you on Dragic, my argument may be wrong on him, but he was never in the class of harden or Nash anyway. It was / is just an argument.

And Dragic is likeable - I liked him, we liked him and Miami like him. Morris bros are dislikable, so is Kobe, so are many others...Dragic is not even close to fitting that bill but either way, I'm still trying to work out what actually defines an 'elevating player' because statistics alone don't tell you the answer....likability, while very loose and minor, might.


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If likability makes someone an 'elevating player' (and it certainly can't hurt) then obviously Big Sauce needs a max extension!

 

[Cheesebeef]

People were high on Kendall Marshall too at some point and he destroyed Balls passing in college but also had questionmarks about his ability as a scorer.

lol... people were high on Kendall Marshall... like Magic Johnson wasn't a PG.

I can't believe you keep making the Marshall comparison. That is another legendary notch on the old slin belt buckle.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

lol... people were high on Kendall Marshall... like Magic Johnson wasn't a PG.

I can't believe you keep making the Marshall comparison. That is another legendary notch on the old slin belt buckle.

Right? Marshall legitimately couldn't score in college. He averaged 8 points as a sophomore, Ball is at 15 as a freshman. Also I believe that part of the reason that Ball isn't averaging as many assists as Marshall did is simply because he can score and thus doesn't only have to rely on being effective by creating for others.

 

[ColdPickleNachos]

Right? Marshall legitimately couldn't score in college. He averaged 8 points as a sophomore, Ball is at 15 as a freshman. Also I believe that part of the reason that Ball isn't averaging as many assists as Marshall did is simply because he can score and thus doesn't only have to rely on being effective by creating for others.

I go to Vegas every Summer League to check out the Suns; have been doing it for about 10 years now.

Kendall Marshall was the worst prospect we invested in by far. You can't always tell who is going to be good, but you can usually tell if someone doesn't have it. It was painfully obvious Marshall didn't have it...to the point that I was shocked when he had brief success as a back-up later in his career.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Have I mentioned Ball or Markkanen yet today? If not, here goes: BALL OR MARKKANEN, preferably both.

I know nothing about this site or this writer (I just saw the article referenced at RGM) but I liked the analysis he did on Ball, Fox, Fultz, Jackson, Tatum, Monk and Markkanen. I especially like this quote from the writer (Kyle Wagner at 538dotCom): Markkanen is a 7-foot freshman center out of Finland who lacks a true comparison in the modern game because I’ll be struck down by the Almighty if I invoke Arvydas Sabonis.

Some people seem to think Lauri has just one NBA level skill. Whether you agree with him or not, it's interesting that this writer would then choose one of the most multi-faceted big men ever as Markkanen's NBA comp.

 

[Russ Smith]

Marshall had great open court speed in college as well. North Carolina was a fastbreak machine with him.



Kidd was better at breaking down the defense and penetrating when he had to in my opinion.

Also Kidd in his draft season averaged 16.7ppg (19.0ppg per 40) that is more than Ball(16.7 per 40).
He averaged twice as many free throws as Ball. He was able to score in more ways than Ball, no matter how you look at it or how efficient Balls % may seem.

Also if you compare freshman seasons Ball plays more minutes so his raw stats are higher. In reality Ball as a freshman scored only 0.3 points more per 40 minutes than Kidd did as a freshman (16.4).

The scoring difference comes from the fact that Ball shoots more 3s.

Of course Kidd averaged more assists and way more steals as a freshman and as sophomore.



He might be or he might not be. Justise Winslow shot 42% from 3 and he is one of the worst shooters in the entire NBA.

Nobody knows for sure how much of an impact Balls slow and low release will have against better and bigger NBA defenders. There is a reason why he is settling for such long 3s in college.

Wait is this ASFN or the Onion?

Averaged more assists as a freshman? Jason Kidd 92-93 7.7apg as a freshman, Lonzo Ball 7.7 APG with the season still going. He might finish up just slightly behind Jason I don't know but they're essentially the same on assists. Ball has Leaf, Alford and Welsh, Kidd had Murray, Grigsby, Haase and Hendrick. UCLA plays at a faster pace but that's because that's how Ball plays, they changed the whole offense for him.

I saw Kidd play like 15 times in HS and virtually every game at Cal, I'm a big Kidd fan, he was a better on ball defender than Lonzo but as a freshman he wasn't as good of a scorer, people backed off him. He wasn't as good a rebounder. I can't compare their soph years because Lonzo won't be in college next year.

Lonzo shot 30 footers in HS too, was he afraid of defense there? His 15 year old brother calls half court shots is he doing that because he's afraid of defenses or because that's the system they are running?

Lonzo's only scoring more because he shoots more 3"s? So if Kidd and his .286 3% as a freshman had taken more 3's he'd have scored more? You do get that the reason Kidd shot more FT's than Lonzo is HE SHOT LESS 3's! They go hand and hand together. Kidd wasn't a good shooter so he drove more, posted up etc. Lonzo is a good shooter so he shoots more 3's. It's called being efficient. He's shown repeatedly this year he can get to the rim and can finish.

Lonzo is shooting 72% on 2 pointers this year! Kidd shot .537, it's not even close as to who was the better shooter in college as a freshman.

Now will Lonzo have a pro career anything like Jason I have no idea, but his freshman year at UCLA is very comparable to Kidd's freshman year at Cal. Much better shooter, taller, not as physically strong but as athletic if not moreso. If he works hard he has a chance to be a great player.

Winslow shot a high % for 2 reasons, they played him at the 4 so he was being guarded by bigger guys who backed off, and he shot college 3's. Ball is being guarded by similar size or smaller guys who aren't backing off usually, and he's shooting NBA 3's. Someone posted something on BRO the other day that said the average distance for a made Ball 3 this year is something like 24 feet, he doesn't shoot that many of the just behind the line 3's like Winslow did.

 

[slinslin]

Again..Ball plays like 5 more minutes than Kidd did as a freshman..

And lol Ball shoots 72% on 2pters because he has taken like 5 2pt jumpers all year.

 

[DWKB]

Again..Ball plays like 5 more minutes than Kidd did as a freshman..

And lol Ball shoots 72% on 2pters because he has taken like 5 2pt jumpers all year.

Considering 2pt jumpers are the least efficient shot a player can take, why would this be an issue? You either drive or you shoot behind the arc.

 

[slinslin]

Considering 2pt jumpers are the least efficient shot a player can take, why would this be an issue? You either drive or you shoot behind the arc.

Even if they are inefficient relatively speaking they are an integral part of the scoring of literally every top level PG in the NBA.

Ball is an atrocious shooter off the dribble, it's a real red flag.

 

[Russ Smith]

Again..Ball plays like 5 more minutes than Kidd did as a freshman..

And lol Ball shoots 72% on 2pters because he has taken like 5 2pt jumpers all year.

again that's called EFFICIENCY. take good shots.

So if Kidd had played 5 more minutes per game he'd have shot 72% on 2's also?

The game is totally different, if you read some of the stuff that's been written this is the exact design the Chino Hills system had in mind, layups and 3 pointers. Yes Lonzo will need a floater at the next level, guess what he's been taking and making them for the last several weeks now in games. People adjusted to how they were guarding him and he's adjusted.

Everyone said he would be a bad shooter at UCLA because of his low 3 % in HS but he's taking better shots and surprise, he's actually been a great shooter.

 

[slinslin]

And scored what 5 points in their most important game of the season. Lets see how that scoring holds up against the tougher opponents UCLA will play now.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

Just randomly going through some draftexpress profiles and was looking at the measurables between Jackson, Isaac and Tatum. What I question is what exactly is it that makes some people higher on Isaac than Jackson or Tatum? Looking at the Hoop Summit measurements there is only a 2" reach advantage in standing reach for Isaac over Jackson and Tatum (Granted Jackson's must be misprinted because his latest measurement shows 8'3" and his measurements before that were all around 8'9"). I will be curious to see what these numbers are during the combine, but without a significant reach advantage what exactly does Isaac have that those other 2 don't?

 

[hsandhu]

Some people have been less high on isaac the last couple weeks because of his stats, but you watch games like just now, you can see he goes a while without any real touches. Probably coaching and he is really the main freshman.

But you watch the game and he jumps out, 6 11 and moves like a guard. Tatum is probably more sure bet, but isaac may have the higher ceiling.

As long as we get fultz, jackson, tatum or isaac I consider the season a success.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Just randomly going through some draftexpress profiles and was looking at the measurables between Jackson, Isaac and Tatum. What I question is what exactly is it that makes some people higher on Isaac than Jackson or Tatum? Looking at the Hoop Summit measurements there is only a 2" reach advantage in standing reach for Isaac over Jackson and Tatum (Granted Jackson's must be misprinted because his latest measurement shows 8'3" and his measurements before that were all around 8'9"). I will be curious to see what these numbers are during the combine, but without a significant reach advantage what exactly does Isaac have that those other 2 don't?

Quickness versus Tatum, complete game versus Jackson. But I really wasn't aware that very many people were talking Isaac before either of those two, I thought it was a slam dunk the other way. I've thought about asking the question you just did but phrased in reverse. I keep watching Isaac and he jumps out at me in a way that neither of those other two players do. I see more mistakes too but he's almost an afterthought on that roster at times and still he shines.

 

[hsandhu]

Quickness versus Tatum, complete game versus Jackson. But I really wasn't aware that very many people were talking Isaac before either of those two, I thought it was a slam dunk the other way. I've thought about asking the question you just did but phrased in reverse. I keep watching Isaac and he jumps out at me in a way that neither of those other two players do. I see more mistakes too but he's almost an afterthought on that roster at times and still he shines.

I just said the same thing on isaac. i atill take jackson over both, but if we have choice of isaac or tatum... that's tough.

For all we know isaac might become kevin garnett

 

[Finito]

Isaac 17 points 10 rebounds 5 assist 3 blocks 2 steals. That's a hell of a stat line. He's the perfect 3 for this team.

He needs to grow into his body and get stronger but the talent is there

 

[AzStevenCal]

I just said the same thing on isaac. i atill take jackson over both, but if we have choice of isaac or tatum... that's tough.

For all we know isaac might become kevin garnett

Yeah, I think Jackson and Tatum are a little easier to predict but Isaac is one of those that might end up outshining most of the names called before him.

I still worry about Tatum at the next level. He's played very well but I'm really not sure that Marcus Morris wouldn't have looked just as good in that same role. And the off court bad news keeps coming for Jackson, I could see us staying away from him for PR reasons.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

Isaac 17 points 10 rebounds 5 assist 3 blocks 2 steals. That's a hell of a stat line. He's the perfect 3 for this team.

He needs to grow into his body and get stronger but the talent is there

Meh, that's just one game. He is averaging 12 and 7 on the season. I just am not all that impressed with how he looks doing it either. Tatum and Jackson both look utterly spectacular at times, but I just don't get the same feeling watching Isaac.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

Yeah, I think Jackson and Tatum are a little easier to predict but Isaac is one of those that might end up outshining most of the names called before him.

I still worry about Tatum at the next level. He's played very well but I'm really not sure that Marcus Morris wouldn't have looked just as good in that same role. And the off court bad news keeps coming for Jackson, I could see us staying away from him for PR reasons.

A 19 year old Marcus? Not a chance, but Marcus right now? Maybe. Thing is that Tatum should make major improvements from where he is right now and Marcus is what he is at this point.

 

[AzStevenCal]

A 19 year old Marcus? Not a chance, but Marcus right now? Maybe. Thing is that Tatum should make major improvements from where he is right now and Marcus is what he is at this point.

I'll admit I wasn't thinking about the difference in age, just that Marcus in his final year at Kansas played a lot like Tatum does right now. And I'm sure Tatum will continue to improve as Morris has done, my concern is that he's probably not going to get any quicker. I'm not convinced (as in, I really do not know) that he'll be able to dominate in the NBA given how much quicker the average small forward is at this level.

 

[Finito]

Meh, that's just one game. He is averaging 12 and 7 on the season. I just am not all that impressed with how he looks doing it either. Tatum and Jackson both look utterly spectacular at times, but I just don't get the same feeling watching Isaac.

What did Booker do in school? That's what this has become these kids don't stay long enough to be finished products anymore the draft has become about drafting what you think a kid will be not what he is.

Isaac has a world of talent and hasn't even grown into his body . There's a reason why he's considered a top 5 pick

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

What did Booker do in school? That's what this has become these kids don't stay long enough to be finished products anymore the draft has become about drafting what you think a kid will be not what he is.

Isaac has a world of talent and hasn't even grown into his body . There's a reason why he's considered a top 5 pick

That's exactly my point. I am not a fan of how he looks on the court. I understand it isn't all about the stats, but Tatum is younger, putting up better stats and he looks better doing it. Two of those 3 things can be said for Jackson as well. That being said I would be alright with ending up with him if for some reason we slip out of the top 5 or so.

 

[AzStevenCal]

That's exactly my point. I am not a fan of how he looks on the court. I understand it isn't all about the stats, but Tatum is younger, putting up better stats and he looks better doing it. Two of those 3 things can be said for Jackson as well. That being said I would be alright with ending up with him if for some reason we slip out of the top 5 or so.

I don't really think the "younger" point means much with these two players. Sure, Tatum is younger but physically he seems a lot more mature than Jonathan and to me that's more important than the fact that Isaac is 6 months older. But Tatum is the better player right now, he's smoother and his game is more advanced. If our scouts are confident that he can still dominate at the 3 in the pros, he'd be a great addition.