How many SG's are better than JJ...?

Goldfield

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I was looking at NBA players ratings(forget the site, a comon one) and I noticed TMac was #1 but JJ was #5!

#5 is damn good considering he has not been the full time starter and he is only what 22 years old...?


Marion was #2 for SF's behind Peja...
 

George O'Brien

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BEERZ said:
I was looking at NBA players ratings(forget the site, a comon one) and I noticed TMac was #1 but JJ was #5!

#5 is damn good considering he has not been the full time starter and he is only what 22 years old...?


Marion was #2 for SF's behind Peja...

There are all kinds of problems with rating systems, but I think JJ is better than many people give him credit for. My guess is that his shooting was over 45% since he became a full time starter (it went from 39% before the trade to 43%), he averaged 16.7 ppg, 4.4 assists, 4.7 rpg, and made 1.13 steals for the entire season. He turns 23 today (June 29th).

Stats aren't everything, but they show his improvement. I think he will continue to be a quality player and a key part of the team.
 

elindholm

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I was looking at NBA players ratings(forget the site, a comon one) and I noticed TMac was #1 but JJ was #5!

The ratings must have been based on aggregate statistics, rather than efficiency. Johnson was among the league leaders in minutes played.
 
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Goldfield

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I feel he may never be a "superstar", but the guy is very solid and can be a key player on a playoff or even championship team.
 

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BEERZ said:
I feel he may never be a "superstar", but the guy is very solid and can be a key player on a playoff or even championship team.

I think JJ has the game to be a superstar in the league but doesnt have the personality to make himself standout like all "superstars" must beable to do and so he will allways be undervalued and underrated...
 

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Ray Allen
Allen Iverson
Vince Carter
Kobe Bryant
Lebron James
Michael Finley
Rip Hamilton

I'd take those guys over JJ.
 

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the site you saw was the player ratings page at cbs.sportsline.com

it is based on aggregate stats, check out the rankings of kobe, shaq, or amare to find out.

no doubt jj has the talent. he is not at a kobe level where he can just blow by someone whenever he wants, but he has excellent dribbling capability, good shooting mechanics, and a decent midrange game. all along, we have always been harping on whats going on between the ears. if he can get himself playing consistently, he'll be good, but then again, if kwame brown played consistently he'd be good. not saying jj is as inconsistent as kwame, but i'd rather take a guy who'll give you an automatic 15 than one who'll put in 30 one night and 0 the next.
 
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Goldfield

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Freddie said:
Ray Allen
Allen Iverson
Vince Carter
Kobe Bryant
Lebron James
Michael Finley
Rip Hamilton

I'd take those guys over JJ.
I do agree with you, but JJ is way younger than those guys also.

Besides LeBron
 

SweetD

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I wish the Suns would send JJ to a psychologist to get his head straight.
 
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Goldfield

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I feel we are all to hard on JJ, simply because the team has struggled.

If we get the right players to help us win, we wont NEED JJ to be the aggresser...
 

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Bryant, Hamilton, Allen, James and McGrady ok but the others on your list Freddie I would pass on to keep JJ.

Even when JJ was "horrible" as far as missing shots he was still pretty good IMO.

I remember starts where people railed on JJ when he had a steal, 2 assists, 2 rebounds, and played good defense in the first 5 min but people said "he sucks" because he started 1-3 from the field.

I think JJ is better than a lot of people give him credit for. Consistancy is the problem for JJ and that is a common problem for players his age.

I am not sure JJ is in the top five but he is top 10 easily IMO.
 

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Freddie said:
Ray Allen
Allen Iverson
Vince Carter
Kobe Bryant
Lebron James
Michael Finley
Rip Hamilton

I'd take those guys over JJ.

I don't know if these guys are technically SFs or SGs but I'd add Corey Maggette and Ron Artest to that list also.
 
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Goldfield

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SirChaz said:
Bryant, Hamilton, Allen, James and McGrady ok but the others on your list Freddie I would pass on to keep JJ.

Even when JJ was "horrible" as far as missing shots he was still pretty good IMO.

I remember starts where people railed on JJ when he had a steal, 2 assists, 2 rebounds, and played good defense in the first 5 min but people said "he sucks" because he started 1-3 from the field.

I think JJ is better than a lot of people give him credit for. Consistancy is the problem for JJ and that is a common problem for players his age.

I am not sure JJ is in the top five but he is top 10 easily IMO.
I agree, he is not a loud mouth and people are upset about that. He is just young. He got a taste of what he can do last year, and I expect him to take a nice step forward this year.

I have allways like his game. He did struggle alot two years ago, but last year he was solid to great last year.
 

George O'Brien

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BEERZ said:
I feel we are all to hard on JJ, simply because the team has struggled.

If we get the right players to help us win, we wont NEED JJ to be the aggresser...

In the second half of the season, JJ was willing to take the "big shots" which is the sign of his growth. In any case, I think the key will be for the players to mature and do more cutting and passing - which would benefit JJ a lot.

Originally Posted by Freddie
Ray Allen
Allen Iverson
Vince Carter
Kobe Bryant
Lebron James
Michael Finley
Rip Hamilton

I'd take those guys over JJ.

I could tear apart some of the players (I think Iverson is a vastly overrated gunner and Carter is worse). Allen is an extremely highly paid all star, but at 44% he is not hugely better than JJ in shooting percentage (JJ went from 39% to 43% following the Marbury trade).

LeBron is a great talent, but he only shot 41% from the field. LeBron is considered a great passer, but only had a little over one more assist per game than JJ.

Finley is 31. Finley's major advantage over JJ is his three point shooting (this is the Mavs remember), but his overall shooting is only 44.3% and JJ has more assists and rebounds. Finley gets $14.6 million this year.

Hamilton's stats are very similar to JJ's since the trade but JJ has more assists and rebounds. Rip had 17.6 ppg to JJ's 16.7 ppg for the season. I'm sure that right now Hamilton's stock is sky high following the playoffs, but I'm not sure he is a dramatically better prospect. JJ is the same heigth but 30 pounds heavier.

If the Suns were making a run for the championship next season, maybe a more experienced (and expensive) player would make sense. But I think JJ is just beginning to show what he is capable of.
 

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Ray Allen (i like him for his outside shooting, it would help to open up the middle for amare, and brake the zones.).
Allen Iverson (i wouldnt touch he with a 10 foot pole. his small size and style of play means that he doesnt have much longer in the nba).
Vince Carter (now this is a true injury prone player, i would take jj over him)
Kobe Bryant (on this team i dont feel he is a better fit then jj. but one on one he is better then jj).
Lebron James (if jj got the hype as king james, he would have been beaten he stats.in their latest head to head match jj out proformed him.)
Michael Finley (i like finley a lot and miss him, but 7 years diffance in age and lack of defense that he now plays with the mavs means i would take jj over him).
Rip Hamilton (rip is a shooter and that is really it, he doesnt have the all around game of jj. i would take jj over rip)

in other words one on one i would take ray allen, kobe and tmac over jj but
ray to go on this suns team.
 

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scotsman13 said:
Ray Allen (i like him for his outside shooting, it would help to open up the middle for amare, and brake the zones.).
Allen Iverson (i wouldnt touch he with a 10 foot pole. his small size and style of play means that he doesnt have much longer in the nba).
Vince Carter (now this is a true injury prone player, i would take jj over him)
Kobe Bryant (on this team i dont feel he is a better fit then jj. but one on one he is better then jj).
Lebron James (if jj got the hype as king james, he would have been beaten he stats.in their latest head to head match jj out proformed him.)
Michael Finley (i like finley a lot and miss him, but 7 years diffance in age and lack of defense that he now plays with the mavs means i would take jj over him).
Rip Hamilton (rip is a shooter and that is really it, he doesnt have the all around game of jj. i would take jj over rip)

in other words one on one i would take ray allen, kobe and tmac over jj but
ray to go on this suns team.

So you're suggesting that of all these perennial All-Stars in comparison to Joe Johnson, the only one you'd rather have on the Suns right now is Ray Allen. Thank god you're not the GM.
 

George O'Brien

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BTW, it is rumored that the Sonics are shopping Ray Allen since he is unlikely to be willing to stay. At $14.6 for one year, he rather "pricy". I can't see the Suns doing anything this year, but might try next year when he's a free agent.
 

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We are talking about the top five shooting guards right now, not five years from now. I'd take every single one of the players I mentioned over JJ. JJ has not shown he has the capability to play effectively with a bonafide star. He may end up being one of the top two-guards in the league, but as of this moment he is not near all-star level.
 

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Freddie said:
Ray Allen
Allen Iverson
Vince Carter
Kobe Bryant
Lebron James
Michael Finley
Rip Hamilton

I'd take those guys over JJ.

Paul Pierce
Ray Allen
Vince Carter
Allen Iverson
Kobe Bryant
Rip Hamilton
Lebron James

Roughly the same level Jason Richardson, Michael Finley, Michael Redd, Allan Houston, Latrell Sprewell, Dwayne Wade...
 

MaoTosiFanClub

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slinslin said:
Paul Pierce
Ray Allen
Vince Carter
Allen Iverson
Kobe Bryant
Rip Hamilton
Lebron James

Roughly the same level Jason Richardson, Michael Finley, Michael Redd, Allan Houston, Latrell Sprewell, Dwayne Wade...

I'll take Dwayne Wade over Joe Johnson any day of the week.
 

slinslin

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I wouldn't. He got a lot of playoff hype that is it.

He is just half a year younger than Joe. He is undersized at the 2 and has almost the same numbers as JJ even for the season when you count in the games when Joe was stuck behind Marbury.
 

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I have no confidence in JJ at all, because he has no confidence in himself.
 

George O'Brien

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There is a tendency to overvalue "flash". JJ is not a "flashy" player, he is not a gunner, and he doesn't try to take over the game. If that's what you value, he will come up short.

In any case, the question of making trades you have to look at a number of things:

1. Price - most of the guys on the list are paid three to four times as much as JJ.

2. Age - JJ is much younger than most of the players listed.

3. Defense - JJ is a pretty good defender and several of the guys listed really aren't. Part of the reason I compare JJ to Hamilton is due to their defense.

4. Size - JJ is much more physical than most of the guards discussed. This shows up on defense and rebounds, but also in his strength and ability to post up smaller players. He is just barely tapping this, but it should prove to be a huge advantage as he continues to develop.

5. Versitility - JJ is able to perform pretty well at SG, SF, and PG. Many of the guys are only shooters and cannot run the offense.

In any case, the question of a trade is not just about what a guy can do now, but also how good he will be in the fugure. I like JJ's future and feel he is a big contributor now.
 

Freddie

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George O'Brien said:
There is a tendency to overvalue "flash". JJ is not a "flashy" player, he is not a gunner, and he doesn't try to take over the game. If that's what you value, he will come up short.

That is exactly the reason I did not oppose to the trading of JJ for T-mac. Currently, we don't anyone one the roster who can take over the game when it counts. Amare is close to being there, but he won't be there until he improves his jumper.

JJ will be a good role player, maybe make a few all-star appearances, but I don't think he'll ever be a superstar.
 
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ehale911

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scotsman13 said:
Ray Allen (i like him for his outside shooting, it would help to open up the middle for amare, and brake the zones.).
Allen Iverson (i wouldnt touch he with a 10 foot pole. his small size and style of play means that he doesnt have much longer in the nba).
Vince Carter (now this is a true injury prone player, i would take jj over him)
Kobe Bryant (on this team i dont feel he is a better fit then jj. but one on one he is better then jj).
Lebron James (if jj got the hype as king james, he would have been beaten he stats.in their latest head to head match jj out proformed him.)
Michael Finley (i like finley a lot and miss him, but 7 years diffance in age and lack of defense that he now plays with the mavs means i would take jj over him).
Rip Hamilton (rip is a shooter and that is really it, he doesnt have the all around game of jj. i would take jj over rip)

in other words one on one i would take ray allen, kobe and tmac over jj but
ray to go on this suns team.


Sorry, but I think this is homerism at its finest. The knock on JJ really hasn’t been that he lacks the talent to be a good player, it’s that he has the mental toughness and confidence of a turnip. For most of his tenure here he had to compete with Penny for minutes and the Suns were expected to compete. Doesn’t anyone else find it funny that JJ finally started playing well AFTER his competition had been traded and the expectations for the team to win was nonexistent?

I’d hold off on anointing JJ anything more than a guy with good potential until he can show that he can play when the games count and when he has a little pressure on him. If he can do that, then he’s shown he has finally gotten over the mental issues that have plagued him thus far in his career.
 
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