Igor Kokoskov will be Suns new head coach

[Covert Rain]

You can work on speed, explosion and balance. It’s not unusual. And at 18 most kids who work in these things do get more athletic. Look at how hard NCAA football players train. Now I believe each individual has a different ceiling in the level of athleticism each can attain, but I’d venture to guess that few 18 year olds have maximized to their ceilings.

I guess that depends on what you mean by athletic. There are kids that are physically gifted and who get stronger each year. Some of those same kids are just not as gifted around the rim or as light on their feet on the football field as others no matter how strong they get.

Getting stronger does not always mean you are as athletic or agile around the rim no matter how much you trained. That’s why many players no matter how strong play below the rim.

That’s what I meant. You can’t “teach” that.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I guess that depends on what you mean by athletic. There are kids that are physically gifted and who get stronger each year. Some of those same kids are just not as gifted around the rim or as light on their feet on the football field as others no matter how strong they get.

Getting stronger does not always mean you are as athletic or agile around the rim no matter how much you trained. That’s why many players no matter how strong play below the rim.

That’s what I meant. You can’t “teach” that.

Agreed.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I guess that depends on what you mean by athletic. There are kids that are physically gifted and who get stronger each year. Some of those same kids are just not as gifted around the rim or as light on their feet on the football field as others no matter how strong they get.

Getting stronger does not always mean you are as athletic or agile around the rim no matter how much you trained. That’s why many players no matter how strong play below the rim.

That’s what I meant. You can’t “teach” that.

But you’re limiting the conversation to strength. I’m not. I’ve taught a 25 year old to dunk who couldn’t before. He needed to understand how to better use his body. And that was someone who wasn’t even trying to maximize their physical capabilities. You CAN get more athletic. Just like you can get less athletic if you get out of shape.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Let me clarify this a bit. The average age of this board is probably late 30s. Darko was 15 years ago.

Guys 25 and younger have no memory of Milicic. So many in the league aren't from America now that being European isn't viewed as a negative. It is viewed as a positive because the Euroleague is viewed as a more difficult league then the NCAA 1 and dones.

I bet its older.

 

[SirStefan32]

And there is more to athleticism than explosiveness, quickness, and jumping ability. You can get stronger, you can improve your balance, you can learn how to use the angles, which makes you look more athletic (Dragic is a good example of this.) All those things count as "athletic."

EDIT: To clarify, I am not making a claim that Doncic will get "more athletic". My point is that there is more to athleticism than explosiveness and quickness.

 

[Mainstreet]

Suns would have to take a player at two and trade that player to a team that would take young down in the draft. Not sure what asset the Suns could pick up?

If the Suns traded down from #1 or #2 the Suns could expect a first round pick (or player) in return plus the other team's (trade partner) early pick likely in the top 4.

It all depends on how early the Suns draft and who is on the board when each team picks. Both teams would be picking for each other but the trade doesn't happen until after both teams pick. The trade may not happen if the the hoped for players are not there.

If Ayton goes number #1 and the Suns have the second pick. Players like Bagley, Doncic, JJJ, Young, Porter, Carter and Bamba should all be there. Some of those same players will be there at #4 or #5 as well in a trade down.

Dropping down a couple of slots could still yield the Suns a very good player.

 

[Lefty]

Just imagine how much more athletic Ayton will get after he had been working out with weights and puts on more myscke. He never listed before last year and thethe guy became chiseled. He just has that body that few players have. The Suns need a center so badly and have never had a player as freakish as Ayton.

 

[JCSunsfan]

If the Suns traded down from #1 or #2 the Suns could expect a first round pick (or player) in return plus the other team's (trade partner) early pick likely in the top 4.

It all depends on how early the Suns draft and who is on the board when each team picks. Both teams would be picking for each other but the trade doesn't happen until after both teams pick. The trade may not happen if the the hoped for players are not there.

If Ayton goes number #1 and the Suns have the second pick. Players like Bagley, Doncic, JJJ, Young, Porter, Carter and Bamba should all be there. Some of those same players will be there at #4 or #5 as well in a trade down.

Dropping down a couple of slots could still yield the Suns a very good player.

this only makes sense if you value a number of players exactly the same.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Just imagine how much more athletic Ayton will get after he had been working out with weights and puts on more myscke. He never listed before last year and thethe guy became chiseled. He just has that body that few players have. The Suns need a center so badly and have never had a player as freakish as Ayton.

You are either drunk or have really fat thumbs.

 

[Mainstreet]

this only makes sense if you value a number of players exactly the same.

Of course. A team should never trade down for a lesser value player.

If Suns fans were not locked onto drafting Ayton, this is a prime draft to trade down from the #1 or even the #2 pick. There are solid draft candidates through at least the 7th pick.

 

[Mainstreet]

Let me clarify this a bit. The average age of this board is probably late 30s. Darko was 15 years ago.

Guys 25 and younger have no memory of Milicic. So many in the league aren't from America now that being European isn't viewed as a negative. It is viewed as a positive because the Euroleague is viewed as a more difficult league then the NCAA 1 and dones.

I agree with what you say to a large extent except people shouldn't close their mind to overseas players no matter what their age.

A lot of American players have flopped.

Some posters use Len as a validation to their thinking as well.

 

[Covert Rain]

But you’re limiting the conversation to strength. I’m not. I’ve taught a 25 year old to dunk who couldn’t before. He needed to understand how to better use his body. And that was someone who wasn’t even trying to maximize their physical capabilities. You CAN get more athletic. Just like you can get less athletic if you get out of shape.

I think we are basically saying the same thing but I see it as maximizing ones athletic potential. Everybody already has a ceiling that isn't going to be raised from teaching. I guess from your perspective you are right in that if someone hasn't reached that potential you can help maximize that. However, at this level of competition I have seen guys improve for sure but have never seen an average athlete go to a great one.

Have you? If so, can you give me NBA examples were a guy went from average to great athletically? I am not talking about a guy who was already pretty damn good and went to great. Maybe there are some. It's Friday and I already have weekend brain. I can't think of any.

 

[JCSunsfan]

I think we are basically saying the same thing but I see it as maximizing ones athletic potential. Everybody already has a ceiling that isn't going to be raised from teaching. I guess from your perspective you are right in that if someone hasn't reached that potential you can help maximize that. However, at this level of competition I have seen guys improve for sure but have never seen an average athlete go to a great one.

Have you? If so, can you give me NBA examples were a guy went from average to great athletically? I am not talking about a guy who was already pretty damn good and went to great. Maybe there are some. It's Friday and I already have weekend brain. I can't think of any.

Stephen Jackson, Jermaine O'Neal, Gerald Green, Wilt Chamberlain. Closest I could come.

 

[Cheesebeef]

H

 

[Cheesebeef]

Stephen Jackson, Jermaine O'Neal, Gerald Green, Wilt Chamberlain. Closest I could come.

This list REALLY confuses me. Wilt Chamberlin was always a freak of nature athletically. All Gerald Green had going for him coming out of the draft was he was a great athlete. Jermaine O’Neal was looked at and drafted as a high school kid because of his size and athleticism.

And Stephen Jackson is the oddest of the bunch. He was hyped to come to Zona hyped as a great athlete but always underwhelmed at that level on the floor then became primarily a 3 and D guy when he got to the pros.

Did Jax even ever play college ball?

Now, Green and O’Neal became more skilled as they got older but their athleticism wasn’t in question.

I’ll give my first example: Jayson Tatum. Dude looks a lot more explosive than he did in college.

 

[JCSunsfan]

This list REALLY confuses me. Wilt Chamberlin was always a freak of nature athletically. All Gerald Green had going for him coming out of the draft was he was a great athlete. Jermaine O’Neal was looked at and drafted as a high school kid because of his size and athleticism.

And Stephen Jackson is the oddest of the bunch. He was hyped to come to Zona hyped as a great athlete but always underwhelmed at that level on the floor then became primarily a 3 and D guy when he got to the pros.

Did Jax even ever play college ball?

Now, Green and O’Neal became more skilled as they got older but their athleticism wasn’t in question.

I’ll give my first example: Jayson Tatum. Dude looks a lot more explosive than he did in college.

Good grief. Now I see your confusion. I misread his post. I gave a list of good to great, while he wanted a list of average to good.

With both Jackson and O'Neal they got more athletic and stronger as their bodies matured. Chamberlain added significant strength after his rookie year. He was fairly skinny coming into the league. Gerald Green supposed added 6 inches to his vertical after coming into the league. At the combine his vertical was 39". Standing 80" tall that puts his head at the rim. But we have photographic evidence of GG getting his head about 8 inches above the rim several years into his career.

I think Giannis has probably become more athletic since coming into the league. He has grown, his body has gotten stronger, and his vertical is now significantly higher.

They became more skilled too. That is not in question.

 

[HeHasRosen]

The Doncic defenders seem to get their panties in a bunch when you question anything about him. I personally do not see him as a bust just over hyped. This happens every year now the euros tend to get a more love its the trendy thing to do now. And as far as athleticism, yes you can improve but there is a ceiling that differs from each individual player. Its just a natural gift you have it or you dont. And the bigger you are the rarer it is and the more uncoordinated you will be that is just fact. That's why a guy like Ayton is a freak of nature. Will Doncic be good? Sure i see him as as a double double guy. But comparing him to magic is a joke. That cant be taken seriously.

When it comes down to it tho, yes you go bpa, but it has to be within reason. It has to be a mixture of bpa and need. We cant just keep loading up on wings and guards. We need bigs and we need them bad. Ayton or bagley. If they are gone then its young because a true pg is a need as well. Bpa + need

 

[Cheesebeef]

never said their athleticism was in question. His question was whether someone improved their already good athleticism while in the league. With both Jackson and O'Neal they got more athletic and stronger as their bodies matured. Chamberlain added significant strength after his rookie year. He was fairly skinny coming into the league. Gerald Green supposed added 6 inches to his vertical after coming into the league. At the combine his vertical was 39". Standing 80" tall that puts his head at the rim. But we have photographic evidence of GG getting his head about 8 inches above the rim several years into his career.

I think Giannis has probably become more athletic since coming into the league. He has grown, his body has gotten stronger, and his vertical is now significantly higher.

They became more skilled too. That is not in question.

Actually, the question wasn't about if good athletes got better.

This was literally the question asked: "Have you? If so, can you give me NBA examples were a guy went from average to great athletically?"

That's a completely different question. And none of those guys came in with average athleticism. Except for Steven Jackson and he stayed at that level.

EDIT: Just saw your edit. We're on the same page.

 

[Lefty]

You are either drunk or have really fat thumbs.

LOL. I was posting it at work, trying not to be so conspicuous.

Was trying to say Ayton has a very high ceiling. He has not been playing organized basketball as long as most of the players in the draft. The Suns won't have many chances to get a guy like him. You can't pass on him.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I think we are basically saying the same thing but I see it as maximizing ones athletic potential. Everybody already has a ceiling that isn't going to be raised from teaching. I guess from your perspective you are right in that if someone hasn't reached that potential you can help maximize that. However, at this level of competition I have seen guys improve for sure but have never seen an average athlete go to a great one.

Have you? If so, can you give me NBA examples were a guy went from average to great athletically? I am not talking about a guy who was already pretty damn good and went to great. Maybe there are some. It's Friday and I already have weekend brain. I can't think of any.

I think we are saying the same thing. In my original post I think I started by saying everyone’s got their different athletic ceilings but most prospects when they come out haven’t maximized.

 

[BC867]

If he’s the best player in the draft it’s not ignorant it’s the right thing to do.

You keep clamoring for a defensive center. I love Ayton and want him #1. But he’s not a defensive center.

I meant that I would be happy with a solid role playing Center. But if we could get one who is the potentially the best Center in the draft (leading the pack for #1 choice for many teams), that's cool.

My emphasis is that we need a Center and a Point Guard (because we are lacking at both positions) more than we need another Wing, even if he has good passing skills.

 

[BC867]

Right, exactly! You guys are spot on. EVERY single prospect has some serious deficiencies and question marks. Somehow, Doncic is the only one whose issues get talked about and even exaggerated.

Because he doesn't fit either of our greatest needs. We don 't have a starting Center. We don't have a starting Point Guard. And we don't need another starter who would not be playing his natural position.

 

[Good Guy]

Once a narrative has been established, everything is viewed in that light. If you look at the video montage of the Cardinals draft Michael Bidwill is right there in the middle of it, making calls, giving opinion, making decisions. If we had the same video with McD and Sarver in it doing the same thing, people would be going through the roof. Amin would be guffawing, and ESPN would be roasting the Suns.

Sarver has had his issues, and I would welcome a better ownership group and leader. But sometimes the criticism sees over the top.

(

xc_hide_links_from_guests_guests_error_hide_media

)

This reminded me of a Bill Simmons podcast where he was joined by Daryl Morey of the Rockets (recorded last offseason, I believe). I've been thinking for years that Sarver should stay away and let his management team handle things, but Morey says that it's crucial for the owner to be involved for the organization to have sustained success, primarily because the owner's goals line up with the fans' interests. Bidwill clearly fulfills the role that Morey describes, and Sarver tries to, but long-established perception will always make it seem that he can't do anything right regardless of how he handles things.

This discussion starts at 1:52: https://art19.com/shows/the-bill-simmons-podcast/episodes/5e5a1285-a584-4cd5-bf26-a593984756b6

As a Suns fan, there is a depressing part starting at 1:46:30 where Morey mentions how positive perception in the media has helped them recruit fee agents, and that free agents generally care more about the owner than the coach.

 

[Mainstreet]

The Doncic defenders seem to get their panties in a bunch when you question anything about him. I personally do not see him as a bust just over hyped. This happens every year now the euros tend to get a more love its the trendy thing to do now. And as far as athleticism, yes you can improve but there is a ceiling that differs from each individual player. Its just a natural gift you have it or you dont. And the bigger you are the rarer it is and the more uncoordinated you will be that is just fact. That's why a guy like Ayton is a freak of nature. Will Doncic be good? Sure i see him as as a double double guy. But comparing him to magic is a joke. That cant be taken seriously.

When it comes down to it tho, yes you go bpa, but it has to be within reason. It has to be a mixture of bpa and need. We cant just keep loading up on wings and guards. We need bigs and we need them bad. Ayton or bagley. If they are gone then its young because a true pg is a need as well. Bpa + need

I have not been as high on Doncic as some others but when he is overly criticized, I find myself trying to add some balance to the discussion.

The scouting services have him rated highly.

I have liked Ayton and Bagley going 1-2 in the draft for a long time, however, I think we need to keep an open mind. Have to wonder if other discussion boards are this critical of him.

 

[Hoop Head]

I have not been as high on Doncic as some others but when he is overly criticized, I find myself trying to add some balance to the discussion.

The scouting services have him rated highly.

I have liked Ayton and Bagley going 1-2 in the draft for a long time, however, I think we need to keep an open mind. Have to wonder if other discussion boards are this critical of him.

On Reddit most people seem to be in the Ayton at #1 camp but Doncic is viewed as a nice consolation prize. Bagley gets hyped more for being from Arizona than his play, from what I've seen, but most seem to think the draft goes Ayton, Doncic, Bagley. Young gets a lot of hype there also but he's in a tier below the others but ahead of Porter and Bamba. I don't recall seeing much about Bamba there at all really. Talk of Porter is usually about his injuries, and more of a skeptical outlook. I think that will change when the draft lottery takes place.

It's a little odd because there is definitely more talk of the Suns getting screwed in the lottery and falling to #4 there than there is here but there is also more talk of the Suns getting the #1 pick there. Not much about the Suns landing #2 or #3, either they'll hit big or get hit hard in the lottery.