Igor Kokoskov will be Suns new head coach

Chaplin

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A lot of people deal in absolutes when it comes to Doncic. A lot think that either a) he's the second coming of Magic Johnson, or b) the next big draft bust. A lot of people don't admit he might be actually somewhere in the middle between those extremes.
 

AzStevenCal

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I think this happens a lot because Doncic defenders seem to treat any mention of his weaknesses as an assault and on themselves and start spinning super twisty defenses of his weaknesses... which add fuel to the fire.

Again, when people question if Ayton’s got enough dog in him, if Bagley or Young can defend a chair, their supporters all universally acknowledge those very real concerns. So there’s very little discussion to be had there.

The Doncic people blow off the concerns and then become indignant when they are argued against so the discussion goes on and on and on...

I've seen that but I've also seen the opposite, even here. We've had (mostly drive-by) posters calling him a complete bust and greatly exaggerating the quickness and athleticism concerns of Doncic.
 

JCSunsfan

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Ironically, This board appears to be the sole place where everyone’s opinion of Doncic is relatively negative.
Its just because Cheese and I have such magnificent powers of persuasion.;)
 

JCSunsfan

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Sorry, I wasn't singling you out with my previous post. Upon reading it again, it seems like I was. Sorry about that.

I agree, I don't like Sarver either, but if you think about what we KNOW vs. what is speculation, I think the answers about failed interviews, bad seasons, tanking, etc. are much more complicated.
:thumbup:

Once a narrative has been established, everything is viewed in that light. If you look at the video montage of the Cardinals draft Michael Bidwill is right there in the middle of it, making calls, giving opinion, making decisions. If we had the same video with McD and Sarver in it doing the same thing, people would be going through the roof. Amin would be guffawing, and ESPN would be roasting the Suns.

Sarver has had his issues, and I would welcome a better ownership group and leader. But sometimes the criticism sees over the top.

(
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ColdPickleNachos

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I've seen that but I've also seen the opposite, even here. We've had (mostly drive-by) posters calling him a complete bust and greatly exaggerating the quickness and athleticism concerns of Doncic.

I know I've posted more about Doncic than anyone else in this draft primarily because this board is an outlier when it comes to him more than any other prospect.

The consensus is often very wrong, but the consensus (at least based on my research, which is far more vast and extensive than it probably should be) is that Doncic is the best or second-best prospect in this draft. I am in line with that consensus (if not slightly lower on Doncic because I have Ayton clearly ahead of him) and so I'm interested in understanding why others are so against him.

I like to constantly evaluate my own opinions and value information and thoughtful counterarguments. It's not those posters who have concerns about athleticism, positional fit, etc. that cause me to get defensive about Doncic. It's those posters who have strong opinions of certainty that he is hugely overhyped, making extraordinary claims with meager evidence, that cause me to be such a consistent Doncic-defender on here.
 

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:thumbup:

Once a narrative has been established, everything is viewed in that light. If you look at the video montage of the Cardinals draft (
xc_hide_links_from_guests_guests_error_hide_media
) Michael Bidwill is right there in the middle of it, making calls, giving opinion, making decisions. If we had the same video with McD and Sarver in it doing the same thing, people would be going through the roof. Amin would be guffawing, and ESPN would be roasting the Suns.

Sarver has had his issues, and I would welcome a better ownership group and leader. But sometimes the criticism sees over the top.

If Sarver has even a SMIDGEN of the level of success that Michael has (1 super bowl, 2 conference title games, 4 playoff appearances and 6 seasons of .500 play or better) in the last decade, he’d be cut some slack. Michael taking over the Cardinals is viewed as THE key reason they went from laughingstock to respected team in the league.

But that’s the exact opposite what happened with Sarver where he took over one of the Crown Jewels in the league and turned them into a punchline.
 

Cheesebeef

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I know I've posted more about Doncic than anyone else in this draft primarily because this board is an outlier when it comes to him more than any other prospect.

The consensus is often very wrong, but the consensus (at least based on my research, which is far more vast and extensive than it probably should be) is that Doncic is the best or second-best prospect in this draft. I am in line with that consensus (if not slightly lower on Doncic because I have Ayton clearly ahead of him) and so I'm interested in understanding why others are so against him.

I like to constantly evaluate my own opinions and value information and thoughtful counterarguments. It's not those posters who have concerns about athleticism, positional fit, etc. that cause me to get defensive about Doncic. It's those posters who have strong opinions of certainty that he is hugely overhyped, making extraordinary claims with meager evidence, that cause me to be such a consistent Doncic-defender on here.

You mean claims like... “he can get more athletic”, is actually a really good three point shooter even though his stats show he’s clearly not, he’s going to play PG even though he’s never been the primary ball handler on his team and is the surest thing as a prospect since LeBron James?

I’ve seen all of these things from a bunch of the Doncic defenders and believe them to extraordinary claims with meager evidence.

So, I’ll ask you the question: What in your opinion are the extraordinary claims made by the skeptics with meager evidence?
 
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JCSunsfan

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If Sarver has even a SMIDGEN of the level of success that Michael has (1 super bowl, 2 conference title games, 4 playoff appearances and 6 seasons of .500 play or better) in the last decade, he’d be cut some slack. Michael taking over the Cardinals is viewed as THE key reason they went from laughingstock to respected team in the league.

But that’s the exact opposite what happened with Sarver where he took over one of the Crown Jewels in the league and turned them into a punchline.
My point exactly. The exact same actions get viewed completely differently based upon a press narrative and success.
 

JCSunsfan

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You mean claims like... “he can get more athletic”, is actually a really good three point shooter even though his stats show he’s clearly not, he’s going to play PG even though he’s never been the primary ball handler on his team and is the surest thing as a prospect since LeBron James?

I’ve seen all of these things from a bunch of the Doncic defenders and all of them are extraordinary claims with meager evidence.
Yep. I look at all the facts surrounding Doncic and it doesn't add up. Its all about "he is 18 and does all this against grown men."

The age thing gets way overblown at draft time. Just because a player is younger does not mean his development curve will continue the same way. Some players hit their peak in high school. Its true. And the players that peak early are most often the ones that are smart and develop an advanced skill set early but do not have the athleticism to carry it beyond a certain point.
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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I said in my very first sentence if you're not one of them quit bringing up Darko to compare him to. What did you do before? Brought up Darko. Sorry if you don't get that but you were the one who mentioned Darko last, saying people were afraid of Doncic being a Darko in a Lebron, Wade, Melo draft. The Darko comparisons need to stop, all around, they're nothing alike. Is that how you float the comparison without taking ownership of it? By saying "others" are doing it despite that not being the case.

It's only you and Cheese who bring Darko up. You have been more open to him as a player than Cheese but that doesn't change that its you two who keep invoking the Darko argument.
Let me make this clear: I AM NOT COMPARING DONCIC TO DARKO. In fact, I’m not even comparing the scouting process of international prospects today to that of yesteryear. I am saying that OTHERS might be worried about a similar fact pattern. If you persist in arguing that I’m comparing Doncic to darko why aren’t you commenting on my comparing Ayton (the projected #1 pick) to Lebron? Because (a) i PERSONALLY wasn’t making a comparison, i was guessing that others likely were; and (B) even in so doing I WASNT SUGGESTING THAT THEY WERE COMPARING THE INDIVIDUALS REFERENCED - I WAS SUGGESTING THEY MIGHT WORRIED ABOUT THE SAME FACT PATTERN. And you even tacitly played into that by only talking about my alleged comparison of Doncic to darko. You focused on the very item that these others might be focused on, the “euro” element. Otherwise you should’ve focused on each alleged comparison (like Ayton to Lebron, which would be similarly silly to the Doncic-to-darko comparison as Lebron was a straight from high school scenario). And if I was comparing Doncic to darko as you claim, then I must being making comparisons of ALL the top draftees because what I said was “hyped American prospects and single hyped euro” and then named darko, Lebron, wade, melo, and bosh. I didn’t single out the darko-to-Doncic comparison . . . ironically, YOU did. So who among this years top prospects was I comparing to each of wade, melo, and bosh? Surely you must know and be okay with THOSE alleged comparisons because you’re claiming that I was comparing darko to Doncic.

I’m curious to see just how obtuse you are in responding. I’m guessing it will be more “you’re comparing darko-to-Doncic” nonsense.
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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Ironically, This board appears to be the sole place where everyone’s opinion of Doncic is relatively negative.
Huh, I think there is a vocal bunch that have a negative impression, but it’s certainly not “everyone.” He remains top three (and maybe even above Bagley) for me. And I know a few others really like him.
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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Sorry, I wasn't singling you out with my previous post. Upon reading it again, it seems like I was. Sorry about that.

I agree, I don't like Sarver either, but if you think about what we KNOW vs. what is speculation, I think the answers about failed interviews, bad seasons, tanking, etc. are much more complicated.
I agree with all that. But with limited information speculation is all that’s left to us.
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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Maybe but that's not just because of hype. He's also torn to shreds far more than any of the other players in this draft.
I think that’s the unknown factor. Most of us have seen a lot of NCAA games for other top prospects. Just haven’t seen a lot of Doncic. That said I remain swayed by the overwhelming support he receives from industry experts.
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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You mean claims like... “he can get more athletic”, is actually a really good three point shooter even though his stats show he’s clearly not, he’s going to play PG even though he’s never been the primary ball handler on his team and is the surest thing as a prospect since LeBron James?

I’ve seen all of these things from a bunch of the Doncic defenders and believe them to extraordinary claims with meager evidence.

So, I’ll ask you the question: What in your opinion are the extraordinary claims made by the skeptics with meager evidence?
One is a recent comment YOU made that he plays terrible defense. I know you cheese. You haven’t watched a single full game of his, much less enough to warrant that opinion. That’s a guess by you.
 

Chaplin

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One is a recent comment YOU made that he plays terrible defense. I know you cheese. You haven’t watched a single full game of his, much less enough to warrant that opinion. That’s a guess by you.
LOL

Fight, Fight, Fight!

Granted, I don't post on the Cardinal board, but it is a momentus day when the two of you disagree with each other. ;)
 

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One is a recent comment YOU made that he plays terrible defense. I know you cheese. You haven’t watched a single full game of his, much less enough to warrant that opinion. That’s a guess by you.

I've actually never said he "plays terrible defense." I have said repeatedly the Euro-style doesn't emphasize it and I FEAR he will play terrible defense against the most athletic players in the league because he's not in their league athletically. There's a difference.
 

Cheesebeef

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My point exactly. The exact same actions get viewed completely differently based upon a press narrative and success.

yeah, but that press narrative comes from legit success. So when we see Michael involved, we don't freak out because he's earned a certain level of trust at this point. Sarver doesn't.

maybe we're saying the same thing here, but at first blush it seems like you're blaming the press for our feelings on Sarver when I for one put all the blame on Sarver himself because of his astounding lack of success/abrasive behavior. Am i miss reading?
 

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If Sarver has even a SMIDGEN of the level of success that Michael has (1 super bowl, 2 conference title games, 4 playoff appearances and 6 seasons of .500 play or better) in the last decade, he’d be cut some slack. Michael taking over the Cardinals is viewed as THE key reason they went from laughingstock to respected team in the league.

But that’s the exact opposite what happened with Sarver where he took over one of the Crown Jewels in the league and turned them into a punchline.

Yes and the Colangelos came back and look at what happened to the Sixers. Sarver destroyed the Suns like Bill Bidwill destroyed the Cards, Mike B saved them single handidly. Sarver and Bill both try to run the team cheaply and it backfired big time
 

Covert Rain

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Loving this thread but question. How does one "get more athletic"?!? You can work on the mechanics of your shot. You can work on getting better at basics.

Teaching someone to "get more athletic" I put in the same category is teaching someone to "get taller".
 

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A lot of people deal in absolutes when it comes to Doncic. A lot think that either a) he's the second coming of Magic Johnson, or b) the next big draft bust. A lot of people don't admit he might be actually somewhere in the middle between those extremes.

I can only speak for myself here, but I don't believe the above, no matter how people want to project my opinion for their own purposes (not saying that's you in this case).

I think he'll be a better version of peak Boris Diaw with the Suns. A very solid/versatile swingman. A guy who can be a 18/6/6 guy. But I also believe that we already have two great swingmen and that the team needs to build up the other positions. But that nuance gets lost on people where they just want to say "Cheese Hates Doncic!" because that's easier to argue against absolutes.
 
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DevonCardsFan

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I can only speak for myself here, but I don't believe the above, no matter how people want to project my opinion for their own purposes (not saying that's you in this case).

I think he'll be a really good version of peak Boris Diaw with the Suns. A very solid/versatile swingman. A guy who can be a 18/6/6 guy. But I also believe that we already have two great swingmen and that the team needs to build up the other positions. But that nuance gets lost on people where they just want to say "Cheese Hates Doncic!" because that's easier to argue against absolutes.

Exactly Wings are the easiest position to add to the Roster, even the last place Suns are loaded with Wings.

Do you really want a Boris Diaw type player, with one of the best draft positions the Suns have ever been in? This team needs a C PF and PG, you ass Ayton or Bagley, even Young LOL. You don't add a unathletic wing that does cool passes, when. You have the chance to finally address a position the Suns have lacked Forever Since Amare,
 

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Ironically, This board appears to be the sole place where everyone’s opinion of Doncic is relatively negative.

Because people here are predominantly older and are basing it on older opinions
 

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So Sarver had a private meeting without his GM or James Jones before deciding to sign off on a move.

Wow you don't say. Where else have we heard that from recently?
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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Loving this thread but question. How does one "get more athletic"?!? You can work on the mechanics of your shot. You can work on getting better at basics.

Teaching someone to "get more athletic" I put in the same category is teaching someone to "get taller".
You can work on speed, explosion and balance. It’s not unusual. And at 18 most kids who work in these things do get more athletic. Look at how hard NCAA football players train. Now I believe each individual has a different ceiling in the level of athleticism each can attain, but I’d venture to guess that few 18 year olds have maximized to their ceilings.
 

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Because people here are predominantly older and are basing it on older opinions

Let me clarify this a bit. The average age of this board is probably late 30s. Darko was 15 years ago.

Guys 25 and younger have no memory of Milicic. So many in the league aren't from America now that being European isn't viewed as a negative. It is viewed as a positive because the Euroleague is viewed as a more difficult league then the NCAA 1 and dones.
 
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