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Harry
ASFN Consultant and Senior Writer
Sorry I was talking about Murray
Interesting Comment
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Harry
ASFN Consultant and Senior Writer
Absolutely true that certain schools are known for certain positions. For example, BC & Michigan could be added to Chopper’s OL list. Everyone knows Penn St is LBU.
GatorAZ
feed hopkins
This forum has wasted a lot of time over the years on certain topics but if this DJ Humphries argument lasts until April then yikes. I’m a Humphries detractor but he 100% be our LT next year.
Chopper0080
2021 - Prove It
I was a bit surprised by the quality of OL Notre Dame and NC St. has put into the NFL recently. Michigan hasn't put out a ton of prospects recently, but you are correct that they do tend to stick. I think Runyan will continue this trend this year.
I doubt you will find anyone that covers the NFL that would put Humphries over Okung, Brown, Whitworth, Leno Jr, Peters, Decker or Smith. Not one.
Here's Brandon Thorn, a well respected Offensive / defensive line analyst that works for the Athletic and Establish the run, giving his LT tiers before the season.
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And from the 100's of comments not one person disagrees. I wouldn't move him now because all the people above him had better seasons.. That's exactly where I see him. He's a JAG. An injury prone JAG.
I consume a lot of football media and there is a lot out there, see if you can find one independent article that thinks Hump is good. Or anything other than a bottom 3rd left tackle.
The whole football world knows what he is. WE all know what he is, I could probably find 50 posts on here from the last couple of years saying exactly what we all think. Don't let one injury free average season fool us into paying him big money. He is what he has always been.
I feel there is a lot of opinion here that's not necessarily contradictory, for example.
I think DJ was our best lineman does not exclude him still being bad. The same way saying he had his best year does not mean it was a good year.
Hump is easily replaceable. One of the most easily replaceable players on the roster. I know this because we spent half the last 4 years having to replace him.
I think giving such a blatantly mediocre left tackle with such a long injury history (not just NFL but also college) a top 5 money contract would be one of the dumbest signing of Keim's tenure, and that's saying something. I'll leave it at that as there are some that clearly don't agree, although the best arguments I've heard for keeping him are consistency and he's average. Which is hardly a ringing endorsement.
The best I would offer him him is 2 years at $10m per. That's his max value based on performance and injury history. With only the 1st $10m guaranteed. That give's him enough time to sign a big money extension if he proves himself.
I think DJ was our best lineman does not exclude him still being bad. The same way saying he had his best year does not mean it was a good year.
Hump is easily replaceable. One of the most easily replaceable players on the roster. I know this because we spent half the last 4 years having to replace him.
I think giving such a blatantly mediocre left tackle with such a long injury history (not just NFL but also college) a top 5 money contract would be one of the dumbest signing of Keim's tenure, and that's saying something. I'll leave it at that as there are some that clearly don't agree, although the best arguments I've heard for keeping him are consistency and he's average. Which is hardly a ringing endorsement.
The best I would offer him him is 2 years at $10m per. That's his max value based on performance and injury history. With only the 1st $10m guaranteed. That give's him enough time to sign a big money extension if he proves himself.
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BACH
Superbowl, Homeboy!
Come on...
LT is arguebly the hardest position to find a quality starter after QB and you claim that Hump is the easiest replacable player. That is just silly!
We haven't found a quality starter at LT, that's exactly why he is replaceable.
Go have a look around the Brown's chat rooms and news sites. They need left and right tackles. Or any other team in the league that need a LT. See if you can find anything where fans are saying "We should sign DJ Humphries for $14m per". What you will find is that in a market with only 4 left tackles worth oxygen, and two of them being 38 years old, no fan base is clamoring for Hump. And we shouldn't be either.
And frankly, if Hump had spent the last 4 years at Miami, or the Broncos and was hitting free agency nobody here or in the wider Cardinals community would be saying "Lets sign that injury prone guy from Miami that the fans have complained about for the last 4 years for $14m". We would all universally be saying "Hell no".
I feel like we all have the equivalent of battered wife syndrome. Is there sucky O line syndrome? We have had so many years of bottom 3 O lines that having one that was only mediocre feels like we are now the Cowboys and Hump is Tyron Smith.
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Michael snuggles the cap space
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for all the bandwidth devoted to this topic: this statement is what it really comes down to
if you believe this, of course you wouldnt pay him
if you think its hard to replace him, you want to keep him-- at least for another year while his replacement comes up to speed
I don't understand how anyone can consider Hump not replaceable. We have been replacing him for years, and we will continue replacing him for years to come every time he is injured.
Bottom 10 players at their position who average less than 11 games a season are the ultimate definition of replaceable.
There's a huge amount of homerism going on here. Or call it "the devil you know". Someone said yesterday they wouldn't take Riley Reiff for $11m per year because he's dog poo and the Vikings fans complain about him. Hump wishes he was Riley Reiff. I doubt you will find a single analyst in the league that thinks Hump has more talent than Reiff. You certainly wouldn't find a majority.
I truly believe if Hump was on another roster fans would be saying "Hell no. I'm not touching that bum for $14m per, he's worth $10m max"
I think we need to get real about what Hump is.
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Michael snuggles the cap space
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anyone is replaceable
the question is "easily"
the Vikings thought Matt Khalil solved their LT issues, the Jags thought Luke Joekel solved their LT issues. They didnt: they made them worse. Even Eric Fisher and Jake Matthews made their respective LT issues worse their first seasons or two
my opinion is that finding average to above average LT play is hard -- and given a young franchise QB, im willing to put up with "good enough for now" from Humphries until i know the alternative is better
Chopper0080
2021 - Prove It
Before the season, that was correct. There were concerns about his health and consistency. Over the year he showed improvement in both of those.
To also poke a hole in your quoted list...Isaiah Wynn has played a total of 8 games in 2 seasons since he was drafted, 0 in 2018. How credible is a list where the number 14th ranked LT in the NFL hasn't played in an NFL game?
I like Thorn...I think he is doing good work to try to quantify good line play. That said, some of his work is to try and be ahead of the curve and generate traffic...Wynn is an example of that.
Andrew Thomas is a pretty solid LT prospect. I'm not sure what they mean by "raw" but he is considered to be good in all areas (run blocking and pass blocking), doesnt' have a glaring weakness, has a lot of experience in the SEC, against top notch D-Lines....etc.
If he is there at #8, it would be a great pick. I would be fine with him starting at LT if needed. Will there be a learning curve yes, but I think he can manage a 65 grade from PFF (which is what DJ earned). I would be more comfortable with Thomas than any other OT prospect as a day 1 starter.
If he is there at #8, it would be a great pick. I would be fine with him starting at LT if needed. Will there be a learning curve yes, but I think he can manage a 65 grade from PFF (which is what DJ earned). I would be more comfortable with Thomas than any other OT prospect as a day 1 starter.
Solar7
Go Suns
This is spot on for not only the O-Line, but the whole team. That Wilks season spiraled the fanbase out of control into accepting poor-to-okay play.
Chopper0080
2021 - Prove It
Another thing...13 LTs played in over 90% of their team snaps this year. DJ was one of those. So, OT health is an issue for a lot of players.
Okung - 24% of snaps.
Glenn - 26%
Wynn - 43%
Beachum - 78%
Duane Brown - 71%
Staley - 41%
Cam Robinson - 79%
Again, you may argue that Charles Leno is better than DJ Humphries, but it is marginal at best. If you split LTs into top 10, bottom 10, and middle 12...Humphries is in the middle 12 as things stand right now.
Better than
Patriots-Isaiah Wynn
Jets-Kelvin Beachum
Dolphins-Julian Davenport
Bengals-Cordy Glenn
Browns-Greg Robinson
Jaguars-Cam Robinson
Raiders-Kolton Miller
Giants-Nate Solder
Redskins-Donald Penn
Vikings-Riley Reiff
Panthers-Greg Little
That is 11 players that, right now, Humphries is better than. That doesn't factor in Jason Peters, Anthony Castanzo, and Andrew Whitworth potentially retiring.
Okung - 24% of snaps.
Glenn - 26%
Wynn - 43%
Beachum - 78%
Duane Brown - 71%
Staley - 41%
Cam Robinson - 79%
Again, you may argue that Charles Leno is better than DJ Humphries, but it is marginal at best. If you split LTs into top 10, bottom 10, and middle 12...Humphries is in the middle 12 as things stand right now.
Better than
Patriots-Isaiah Wynn
Jets-Kelvin Beachum
Dolphins-Julian Davenport
Bengals-Cordy Glenn
Browns-Greg Robinson
Jaguars-Cam Robinson
Raiders-Kolton Miller
Giants-Nate Solder
Redskins-Donald Penn
Vikings-Riley Reiff
Panthers-Greg Little
That is 11 players that, right now, Humphries is better than. That doesn't factor in Jason Peters, Anthony Castanzo, and Andrew Whitworth potentially retiring.
If you read through his comments you will see his answer on Wynn.
For me, staying healthy when you have never been able to is not something you get points for. That's the minimum expected. Is Hump getting credit for finally staying fit? If he had played 12 or 13 games would that make a difference to your opinion?
I'm more than happy to admit he was decent in pass pro this year. I can see that with my own eyes and PFF's numbers say the same thing. I'm just not happy paying top 5 money for 1 healthy year of "decent".
If we were to spend the Hump money on a good vet RT, say Jack Conklin or Daryl Williams (How good they are is another convo but they are at least better than Hump), or even if they intended to resign Gilbert to start at RT. Would you be more willing to roll with a rookie at LT?
wa52lz
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Ju'Wuan James was basically the RT version of DJ in Miami. 1st round pick in 2014, trouble staying healthy missed 9 games in year 2, 8 games in year 4 and 1 in year five. 2018 gave up 7 sacks and 7 penalties per PFF and had a 70.9 grade. PFF Grades- 69 (2017), 75.8 (16), 64.3 (15), 63.4. DJ's Grades 64.5 (19), 68.8 (18), 81.7 (17), 68.3 (16) and didn't play year one. FA at age 26. Yes James had a higher PFF grade in his 5th year but gave up 7 sacks in 200+ less snaps and played the less premium position and got 4yrs- $51 million. There is no way that DJ is signing or even being offered anything in the range of 2yrs $20 million, whether that's all you feel he's worth and you're ready to move on from him or not, its just not realistic.
How are you defining better? Because on max talent displayed on the field a bunch of those guys are better. If you want to use PFF grades or appearances or a combo of all 3 a bunch of those guys are better.
For sure Cam Robinson, Kolton Miller and Davenport. Wynn and Little are hard to say as they haven't played enough. Donald Penn purely on age but not talent, Penn has taken off sweaty uniforms with more ingrained talent.
Solder no, apart from this past year Hump couldn't touch Solder. I'd call it a draw at best. Riley Reiff no. Greg Robinson is borderline, for me Hump is just another Greg Robinson. Robinson just gets more crap because of his draft position. Cordy Glenn no, not even close in talent. Beachum, another Hump.
Tiers are probably the easiest way to do it and they would be pretty much like Thorns.
1. Everyone good.
2. Reiff, Glenn, Solder, Penn
3. Beachum, Hump, Miller, Hump, Greg Robinson
4. Davenport, Khalil, Cam Robinson
Unknowns - Little, Wynn
I think thats fair. I don't think anyone in the league would have trouble bunching Hump with the Beachums and Greg Robinsons.
How many games to Ju'Wuan James play this year after being overpaid because of one relatively healthy decent season? You are right, he is the RT version of Hump and he's exactly why I don't want to extend him.
The same way that when he was FA last year every Cards fan said they didn't want to sign that injury prone JAG to a fat deal to play RT and we all laughed and said "The Bronco's paid him how much?" when they signed him.
The Cardinals set a franchise-record in yards per carry and finished No. 10 in the NFL in ESPN’s pass-block win rate, holding back pass-rushers for 2.5 seconds or more 46 percent of the time. Even though Murray's sack total – 48 – was high, Pro Football Focus faulted the blockers on only 25 of them.
"We don't have any (expletives), nobody who wants to be lazy and don't want to do nothing," Humphries said. "We've got a bunch of rule-following cats that want to be good and are eager to be good every day. And we've got a coach who wants to coach the (expletive) out of us.
"It goes hand-in-hand. They found the right guys to put into the room and motivate each other, and they kept the right guys. It speaks to the identity we want to be. I'm super excited at how it folded together. It's amazing. Like I was telling the boys the other day, this is definitely my favorite group since I've been in the league."
"You learn from each other," Shipley said. "You become more cohesive as a unit as the year goes on."
The Cardinals aren't young on the offensive line, and right tackle, particularly, seems like a spot that could be ripe for a change, but there no longer seems to be a dire need for an overhaul.
https://www.azcardinals.com/news/cardinals-offensive-line-hopes-to-remain-together
"We don't have any (expletives), nobody who wants to be lazy and don't want to do nothing," Humphries said. "We've got a bunch of rule-following cats that want to be good and are eager to be good every day. And we've got a coach who wants to coach the (expletive) out of us.
"It goes hand-in-hand. They found the right guys to put into the room and motivate each other, and they kept the right guys. It speaks to the identity we want to be. I'm super excited at how it folded together. It's amazing. Like I was telling the boys the other day, this is definitely my favorite group since I've been in the league."
"You learn from each other," Shipley said. "You become more cohesive as a unit as the year goes on."
The Cardinals aren't young on the offensive line, and right tackle, particularly, seems like a spot that could be ripe for a change, but there no longer seems to be a dire need for an overhaul.
https://www.azcardinals.com/news/cardinals-offensive-line-hopes-to-remain-together
Reading everyone’s post here’s what I see.
I don’t think anybody’s heart will be broken IF, I repeat IF, we had the answer of who will be his replacement. It’s hard for many of us to say get rid of him without having that answered. If the Cards moved on to another free agent OT many of us would feel they can improve the position, not just save money.
I think the best solution would be to tag Humphries, and draft Thomas ( I think he can play RT), and tender Murray. Now you have the flexibility to move Thomas to LT if Hump were to get injured and if excels you can let hump walk.
Thats the one problem I have with drafting Wirfs. Jeremiah actually lists him as an OG and I don’t think he is capable of playing LT ever.
I don’t think anybody’s heart will be broken IF, I repeat IF, we had the answer of who will be his replacement. It’s hard for many of us to say get rid of him without having that answered. If the Cards moved on to another free agent OT many of us would feel they can improve the position, not just save money.
I think the best solution would be to tag Humphries, and draft Thomas ( I think he can play RT), and tender Murray. Now you have the flexibility to move Thomas to LT if Hump were to get injured and if excels you can let hump walk.
Thats the one problem I have with drafting Wirfs. Jeremiah actually lists him as an OG and I don’t think he is capable of playing LT ever.
Chopper0080
2021 - Prove It
If the argument was that we could sign any one of the following for 14 mil.
Anthony Castonzo
Jack Conklin
DJ Humphries
I can buy an argument that DJ would not be your top choice.
Where I have a problem is when we start throwing around Daryl Williams (played 9 games at OG in 2019 for the Panthers) or Kelvin Beachum or some other player who is worse, but might be cheaper. I have a tough time getting excited for a one year stop-gap player who we don't know, then being forced to take whichever OT is available in round 1, and having to count on Justin Murray at RT.
I want to add talent to our current group of offensive linemen vs swapping guys in or out.
Krangodnzr
Captain of Team Conner
USC is LBU.
Krangodnzr
Captain of Team Conner
EASILY REPLACEABLE.
Absolutely incorrect. You say you consume alot of football media, and then you make an absolutely laughably ridiculous claim.
LT is easily the hardest OL position to fill. While I know you have a low opinion of Humphries, he is easily a top 3 LT in ARIZONA Cardinals history.
LT is not an easy position to fill. As a fan base, we have seen how many clowns the Cardinals have brought in to play LT that have been significantly worse than DJ Humphries.
De'Anthony Batiste. I remember him going against Patriots young defensive end, Chandler Jones, and he nearly got beaten on every single pass rush snap.
Easily replaceable.
I think we will always differ on Hump being better than Williams or Beechum. For me he's the same type of guy.
I agree he had a better year in pass pro but 1 year from 4 doesn't do it for me. I feel a scheme with a lot of quick short passes is skewing his stats and his 3 previous years are a more accurate representation.
