Is JJ THE MAN?

[Errntknght]

"Forget Kobe! We need a center!"

Great to see more guys coming around to this way of thinking.

Some think getting Kobe at any cost is a 'no-brainer'... that's lexicographically close but the correct word is 'brainless'.

 

[King A]

as stated in another thread a lineup of

jj
kobe
shawn
amare
jake/white

is more talented and should be better than

barbosa
jj
shawn
amare
Brad Miller

With 4 guys scoring at 1-4, and white playing 24 mins at 2 pts, 6 rebs, 1.5 blks
and jake playing the rest of the mins

there souldn't be a rebounding blocking problem. i mean, white is a relatively good shotblocker with currently 1 blk per game, shawn is our best at 1.8 i think and amare can do 1-2.5 too if healthy and playing time given.

Rebounding wouldn't be a problem either: white/voskuhl can combine for 10 (if either of them is on the floor all the time)
amare grabs 8-10
shawn grabs 7-9
kobe gets 5-6
jj gets 3-4

makes: 33-39 rebounds by our starting 5.

pretty good just for starters, eh?

 

[elindholm]

Some think getting Kobe at any cost is a 'no-brainer'... that's lexicographically close but the correct word is 'brainless'.

You may not agree with it, but I hardly consider the stance "brainless."

 

[frdbtr]

Originally posted by King A
as stated in another thread a lineup of

jj
kobe
shawn
amare
jake/white

is more talented and should be better than

barbosa
jj
shawn
amare
Brad Miller

With 4 guys scoring at 1-4, and white playing 24 mins at 2 pts, 6 rebs, 1.5 blks
and jake playing the rest of the mins

there souldn't be a rebounding blocking problem. i mean, white is a relatively good shotblocker with currently 1 blk per game, shawn is our best at 1.8 i think and amare can do 1-2.5 too if healthy and playing time given.

Rebounding wouldn't be a problem either: white/voskuhl can combine for 10 (if either of them is on the floor all the time)
amare grabs 8-10
shawn grabs 7-9
kobe gets 5-6
jj gets 3-4

makes: 33-39 rebounds by our starting 5.

pretty good just for starters, eh?

In theory this would be a Championship lineup. I think that in Reality, however, with Kobe demanding that he shoot the ball every time down the floor, this lineup would fail.

 

[elindholm]

I think that in Reality, however, with Kobe demanding that he shoot the ball every time down the floor

In which Reality does Bryant do this? I've never seen it.

 

[Chaplin]

Originally posted by Errntknght

Some think getting Kobe at any cost is a 'no-brainer'... that's lexicographically close but the correct word is 'brainless'.

Typical. That isn't correct at all.

IF Kobe Bryant is available AND amicable to come to Phoenix, I think it is "brainless" to ignore that.

 

[Chaplin]

Originally posted by elindholm
I think that in Reality, however, with Kobe demanding that he shoot the ball every time down the floor

In which Reality does Bryant do this? I've never seen it.

I wonder if these guys that are so against Kobe Bryant have actually seen him play more than the 4 times a year he plays the Suns.

 

[newfan101]

Originally posted by Errntknght
"Forget Kobe! We need a center!"

Great to see more guys coming around to this way of thinking.

Some think getting Kobe at any cost is a 'no-brainer'... that's lexicographically close but the correct word is 'brainless'.

Thinking you can get a center at Kobe's level is brainless. Is their a trade in the works for Shaq or Duncan we don't know about?

Wanting a top 5 talent IS a no-brainer. I've watched this team since the beginning, and we've only had ONE in our history in Barkley. I'd like another, and if that makes me "brainless" then so be it. Superstars win championships, not mediocre centers. It would be nice to have a superstar center, but we're not getting one.

If you genuinely don't think Kobe is a superstar, and has been riding Shaq coattails, then I can understand not wanting to go after him. I wouldn't agree, but I would understand. However, if you acknowledge that he is a top 5 talent and STILL would rather go after Camby, Okur or some other non star center, then you are in no position to call anyone "brainless."

 

[frdbtr]

Originally posted by Chaplin
I wonder if these guys that are so against Kobe Bryant have actually seen him play more than the 4 times a year he plays the Suns.

I have watched Kobe play A LOT. The lakers play on national TV about every other week. Not just this year but in years past. His talent is undenyable however he is a selfish player because he has complained every year (including the championship years) about not being able to play "his game" because he has to let Shaq be the man. A real unselfish player would play hard and contribute to the team in a way that contributes to a championship and just keeps his mouth shut and wins. That is what Magic Johnson did. I don't want to mortgage the Suns future on a Superstar that has unbelievable talent but has proved himself to be selfish.

 

[Chaplin]

Originally posted by frdbtr
I have watched Kobe play A LOT. The lakers play on national TV about every other week. Not just this year but in years past. His talent is undenyable however he is a selfish player because he has complained every year (including the championship years) about not being able to play "his game" because he has to let Shaq be the man. A real unselfish player would play hard and contribute to the team in a way that contributes to a championship and just keeps his mouth shut and wins. That is what Magic Johnson did. I don't want to mortgage the Suns future on a Superstar that has unbelievable talent but has proved himself to be selfish.

Do you have any cold hard facts to make a basis for this claim? According to his statistics, he isn't selfish either.

 

[frdbtr]

Originally posted by Chaplin
Do you have any cold hard facts to make a basis for this claim? According to his statistics, he isn't selfish either.

If he is so "invalueable" to the Lakers then why are the news reports coming out of LA saying that they are getting tired of his act. Did Chicago ever report that they were getting Tired of Jordan's act? If I was basing my opinions on how Kobe has played against the Suns then I would definately want him because he has always shreded us. However I am basing my opinions on how I have seen him play and the attitude that he presents in the public. I am never going to change your mind Chap, and if the Suns get him I will root for him to succeed. However my opinion is, spending max money on this guy is a bad idea.

 

[Chaplin]

Ok, I can understand your position.

Since I live in Los Angeles, I see a lot of Laker games. And it is extremely ironic when they say they're tired of his "act" when Shaquille O'Neal is the biggest ham in town. It's become a sideshow. I don't mind that, but I find it hypocritical for anyone to talk about Kobe's "act" when you've got the laziest player in the NBA with a head the size of Cleveland. And it ain't Kobe.

 

[elindholm]

His talent is undenyable however he is a selfish player because he has complained every year (including the championship years) about not being able to play "his game"

Do you have direct quotes of him saying things like this? I haven't seen them. Instead I see quotes from Phil Jackson saying, "I think Kobe's problem is lack of Zen masturbatory ... er, rather, maturity," or quotes from O'Neal saying, "Duh fug big dog two stars Kobe duh the man duuuhhh." In both cases you have Bryant's "opponents" putting words in his mouth.

If Bryant actually starts saying those things himself -- and on a regular basis, rather than once every couple of years out of frustration -- then I'll change my opinion.

 

[George O'Brien]

Is Kobe selfish? Probably. Would it hurt the Suns? Who knows?

It is not quite fair to compare Kobe's attitude to that of Jordan. The Bulls were built around Jordan. The Lakers are built around Shaq.

The better comparison would be comparing Kobe to Pippen. Pippen was a great player. He was on the 1992 Dream Team and was a huge factor in winning six championships. Pippen was a fantastic player, but he adjusted his game to meet the needs of Jordan.

Kobe does not want to be Pippen, he want's be Jordan. Maybe he can be, but it is not a sure thing. Jordan needed Pippen and they worked together really well. Can Kobe tollerate another superstar on his team? I honestly don't know.

 

[Chaplin]

Originally posted by George O'Brien

Kobe does not want to be Pippen, he want's be Jordan. Maybe he can be, but it is not a sure thing. Jordan needed Pippen and they worked together really well. Can Kobe tollerate another superstar on his team? I honestly don't know.

He's done it his entire career. And he wouldn't HAVE to in Phoenix. Amare may end up a superstar, but he's far from it right now.

 

[elindholm]

The better comparison would be comparing Kobe to Pippen.

Do you honestly think that Bryant is not much, much better than Pippen?

 

[Chaplin]

Originally posted by elindholm
The better comparison would be comparing Kobe to Pippen.

Do you honestly think that Bryant is not much, much better than Pippen?

That's a good question.

Most people are content at comparing ROLES, rather than talent. And in the case of our team, I think that's the wrong way to go about it.

 

[frdbtr]

Originally posted by George O'Brien
Is Kobe selfish? Probably. Would it hurt the Suns? Who knows?

It is not quite fair to compare Kobe's attitude to that of Jordan. The Bulls were built around Jordan. The Lakers are built around Shaq.

The better comparison would be comparing Kobe to Pippen. Pippen was a great player. He was on the 1992 Dream Team and was a huge factor in winning six championships. Pippen was a fantastic player, but he adjusted his game to meet the needs of Jordan.

Kobe does not want to be Pippen, he want's be Jordan. Maybe he can be, but it is not a sure thing. Jordan needed Pippen and they worked together really well. Can Kobe tollerate another superstar on his team? I honestly don't know.

I would rather compare Kobe to Magic Johnson because he also had to play with a dominating center. Magic was a great All around player and molded his game to fit Kareems and they won championships that way. He was a truely unselfish player. Jordon was also pretty selfish but he also made everyone better on his team. I don't think that Kobe does that right now, and I am not sure that he will ever be that kind of player.

 

[scotsman13]

Originally posted by Chaplin
Do you have any cold hard facts to make a basis for this claim? According to his statistics, he isn't selfish either.

yea chaplin and marbury is even more unselfish based on the stats but since he has left we have seen the offensive running much easier and the ball movement has been great. so just because someone passes the ball doesnt mean that they are not selfish. heck just watching the new york game the other night i kept saying how that when marbury came down and lunched those 3 pointer with no time off the clock how much i wouldnt miss that from him.

 

[elindholm]

heck just watching the new york game the other night i kept saying how that when marbury came down and lunched those 3 pointer with no time off the clock how much i wouldnt miss that from him.

So your argument is strengthened by the observation that you "kept saying" it?

 

[George O'Brien]

Originally posted by scotsman13
yea chaplin and marbury is even more unselfish based on the stats but since he has left we have seen the offensive running much easier and the ball movement has been great. so just because someone passes the ball doesnt mean that they are not selfish. heck just watching the new york game the other night i kept saying how that when marbury came down and lunched those 3 pointer with no time off the clock how much i wouldnt miss that from him.

Big difference was that Stephon was hitting those shots and he was missing them in Phoenix.

Seriously, the style game that Stephon plays and what Kobe does is quite different. Stephon's first option was always to drive to the basket and his second option was always to shoot the three if his opponent backed off of him. His assists were generally passess that came after he drove to the basket.

Kobe has a much more rounded game. He can score in many different ways. It has to be frustrating to him that he has to works so hard to get the ball into Shaq, even though it is typically a sure assist.

None the less, he has to be able to work with other superstars if he hopes to win any more championships. One guy is not enough.

 

[Chaplin]

I never saw him having any problems with Payton or Malone--or even Rodman, who at the time was somewhat a "star".

 

[scotsman13]

over marbury's time here how many times did he come down the court and fire up a 3 pointer with no chance of anyone on the team getting a rebound. i really liked a lot of the things that marbury brought to this team but this was one area that i had a problem with him and with barkley when he would do it.

 

[elindholm]

over marbury's time here how many times did he come down the court and fire up a 3 pointer with no chance of anyone on the team getting a rebound.

Well of course. But is that selfishness or bad judgement? And what does it have to do with Bryant?

 

[George O'Brien]

Originally posted by elindholm
over marbury's time here how many times did he come down the court and fire up a 3 pointer with no chance of anyone on the team getting a rebound.

Well of course. But is that selfishness or bad judgement? And what does it have to do with Bryant?

I agree. About the only relevance is that the idea that assists equal unselfishness may be misplaced. But otherwise, these are two radically different types of players.