Its Official: We have a QB Controversy

[JeffGollin]

The eye test says Kolb?

The W and L test says Skelton.

My eye test likes Skelton better.

Given the reality of the surrounding cast (especially our horrific pas pro) -

Kolb probably gets rid of the ball quicker.

Skelton is bigger and better able to withstand the punishment

Skelton seems to have better pocket presence and instincts on the move.

Name your flavor - strawberry or butter pecan. Both taste great (or not).

Personally, I think we have a better shot of winning with Skelton (he's slightly better physically and has all but caught up wit KK mentally).

 

[Cheesebeef]

LOL. So there's no absolute value on NFL draft picks. By your measure, we could've given up 2 firsts for Kolb, but we wouldn't be able to grade the trade until we find out whether or not the draft picks work out? Give me a break.

Would DRC be benched here? Of course not. We'd just have the best CB corps this side of the New York Jets, with maybe a better pass rush at this point. The Eagles' pass D fell apart once DRC got injured yesterday, but apparently he's garbage. Whatever.

I said it all offseason, and you gave me a ration of ***** for it: We should have signed Alex Smith. Any of the free agents would've been as good as Kolb for 50% of the price, and zero draft pick compensation. DRC + a second round pick + Skelton + money to re-sign Campbell and Doucet >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kolb.

We could have traded up to take Andy Dalton ahead of the Bengals or drafted Ryan Mallett and been in better shape for the short- or long-term than the stupid trade for Kevin Kolb.

There's no argument to be made that you have to go into training camp with a definite starter at quarterback. A rookie would've had an extra 10 days of practice time than Kolb had and we wouldn't have to mortgage the future to have him. A free agent QB would've competed for the position with Skelton, and if Skelton outplays him then you release him the next year, or he's a Mark Brunell-style veteran backup.

And you end with the fallacy that because Warner with an awful coaching staff struggled here that Kolb with a consistent coaching staff (that Warner immediately blossomed under) will do the same. Nice work, but I'm not falling for it. Call me when Kolb goes to two Super Bowls and is two-time NFL MVP before coming here.

still not sure Alex Smith could do here what Harbaugh, a killer running game and a great defense has done for him in San Fran. The obvious choice was Hasselback... leader, winner, still has the tools and wouldn't have cost much. Hasselback on this team along with DRC and we're probably in the wild-card hunt, even with our atrocious O-line.

 

[MadCardDisease]

Skelton has play just barely good enough for us to get two wins against two not so good teams. Before we go annoiting Skelton to the full time starter, lets see how he does against a real defense. The only reason I want to see Skelton start against the Niners is to see how he handles the pass rush he will see. If Skelton performs well in SF then I will start to believe and you can call it a controversy.

 

[MadCardDisease]

still not sure Alex Smith could do here what Harbaugh, a killer running game and a great defense has done for him in San Fran. The obvious choice was Hasselback... leader, winner, still has the tools and wouldn't have cost much. Hasselback on this team along with DRC and we're probably in the wild-card hunt, even with our atrocious O-line.

Hasselbeck was my original choice as well. However I doubt he would have lasted with our OL. Me thinks you are forgetting how bad our OTs actually are.

 

[Kel Varnsen]

impressively mediocre

Great phrase. I bet this is a key part of the team's internal vision statement.

 

[gmabel830]

I went into this in more detail in another thread, but starting Skelton over Kolbis incredibly short sighted. I understand the argument as I, like all of you, want wins. What makes the move short sighted is that you can never go back Kolb if Skelton fails. You have nothing to lose if you start Kolb and give him every opportunity to succeed this season as the season is lost already. However, if you start Skelton over a healthy Kolb, you have ruined any chance that Kolb has to develop in the future. You have given up on a QB that you went to great lengths to acquire after 7 starts for a guy who has looked mediocre, albeit impressively mediocre, against two sub .500 teams. We can always turn the reins to Skelton down the line if Kolb doesn't pan out. The only way that we can lose in the deal is if we bench a healthy Kolb for Skelton.

I missed that until someone else quoted it just now -- what a fantastic way to summarize our season so far..

Your 2011 Arizona Cardinals -- Impressively Mediocre!

 

[Phrazbit]

In about 3-4 years we'll know what that 2nd round pick is. And that's if the player is even on the roster in 3-4 years. The "hit" rate on 2nd round picks is 50% or less. Kolb was the best QB available and worrying about a 2nd round pick panning out would be pretty stupid to hold off on acquiring, what many thought, was not only filling a gaping hole in the roster but also considered by many to have a pretty high ceiling. Kolb was one of those high 2nd picks you're going on about. I would have given up 2 second rounders for Kolb rather than DRC but DRC hasn't panned out.

It's pretty easy to second guess in hindsight. What QB was available in the draft? Skelton would be outperforming Locker, Gabbert, or Ponder. Then you'd be on here whining we passed on PP for a guy who can't beat out Skelton, unless you're thinking we should have taken Dalton at 5, which would be a pretty lame argument considering he didn't go in round 1.
I think it's funny all the people on here now who "knew" Skelton was better when we didn't even know if he was the #2 for the first half of the season.

Let's say the trade turns out to be a benched DRC and the next Cody Brown, was it stupid? I admit Kolb has looked bad buut it's too ealy to write him off, especially after 7 games. Like I pointed out in another thread, Warner was so-so at best and 3-15 in his years of starting for the Cards. NOt saying Kolb is going to be Warner but just showing how it's way to early to judge Kolb yet.

The hit rate on trading for other teams backup QBs is well below 50%, the hit rate on trading for Andy Reid backups is 0%. And I think there are many who would contest the idea that Kolb was the "best QB available".

2nd round picks are highly valuable assets. We traded a 2nd round pick for a player no other team was pursuing and who we now could not GIVE away.

Warner was a 2 time MVP and a superbowl champion before coming here. Some questioned if he still had juice in the tank but there was no doubting his petrigree. Kolb on the other hand has no reason at all to suspect he is a different player than the one we are seeing. His numbers in Philly were just as bad. Last year a Philly team that went 10-6 was 2-4 in games where they had to play Kolb. They were a superbowl contender without him and a bottom dweller with him, and thats in a system he had spent FOUR YEARS in.

It does not matter who the Eagles take, they could draft a guy who never plays a game but it makes no difference because it probably isnt the same guy who the Cardinals would have taken and it deprived the Card of the opportunity to land a quality player.

A starting corner, a 2nd round pick, 20 million in guarantees, at least one season wasted in "seeing if he has it". We lost this trade, we lost it bad.

 

[daves]

Warner was so-so at best and 3-15 in his years of starting for the Cards. NOt saying Kolb is going to be Warner but just showing how it's way to early to judge Kolb yet.

Yep, Warner was 3-12 as a starter in 2005 and 2006... while 3rd round pick Josh McCown was 9-10 in 2004 and 2005. I am NOT saying i hold this position, but Kolb supporters could argue that Skelton is our new McCown - big, strong-armed, relatively mobile, and a winner, but with limited upside... while hope remains that Kolb could reach a higher potential. (Yes, i'm well aware that McCown was in his 3rd and 4th years in the league with full offseasons by that point, and that Kolb has done nothing to indicate that he could be compared to Warner!)

I'd like to see more of Skelton to get a better idea of just what his upside is. I still have hope for Kolb as well, but it sure is fading quickly. I guess i'd like to see a little more of him too. His best game was his first and he's got worse with every game since; it sure would be nice if he could mentally get back to where he started and move in the right direction from there.

...dave

 

[Cheesebeef]

Yep, Warner was 3-12 as a starter in 2005 and 2006... while 3rd round pick Josh McCown was 9-10 in 2004 and 2005. I am NOT saying i hold this position, but Kolb supporters could argue that Skelton is our new McCown - big, strong-armed, relatively mobile, and a winner, but with limited upside... while hope remains that Kolb could reach a higher potential. (Yes, i'm well aware that McCown was in his 3rd and 4th years in the league with full offseasons by that point, and that Kolb has done nothing to indicate that he could be compared to Warner!)

the biggest difference I see in the Skelton McCown comparison is McCown was just NEVER clutch. That team was always seemingly winning games in spite of him and while Skelton hasn't even been "good" yet in a game, the guy has shown some MAJOR stones in three games so far in his career, leading game winning or game tying drives late in the fourth quarter. That gives me a little more hope for him... that and the fact that he's a pretty damn tough SOB who actually has somewhat good pocket presence which is something you just can't teach.

 

[conraddobler]

the biggest difference I see in the Skelton McCown comparison is McCown was just NEVER clutch. That team was always seemingly winning games in spite of him and while Skelton hasn't even been "good" yet in a game, the guy has shown some MAJOR stones in three games so far in his career, leading game winning or game tying drives late in the fourth quarter. That gives me a little more hope for him... that and the fact that he's a pretty damn tough SOB who actually has somewhat good pocket presence which is something you just can't teach.

^This.

If I had to point to one thing about him I like it's this.

He takes punches to the face in the form of bad picks and keeps on chucking the rock.

Stat wise over the entire game he's not going to impress anyone but on the flip side of this he seems to be making progress which is about all you want out of a QB with 6 career starts.

He's about ready to play a real defense, this could be epic in an ugly fashion, we shall see.

 

[kerouac9]

still not sure Alex Smith could do here what Harbaugh, a killer running game and a great defense has done for him in San Fran. The obvious choice was Hasselback... leader, winner, still has the tools and wouldn't have cost much. Hasselback on this team along with DRC and we're probably in the wild-card hunt, even with our atrocious O-line.

Are we 8-1 with Alex Smith? Heck, no. Are we probably close to or better than the 3-6 we are now? I'd guess as much. But we'd also have a second round pick and DRC and lack a monstrous contract hanging over our head.

I'm pretty sure that Hasselback didn't want to come here and play for us. I don't think he has any love for Whis (his brother played for him, after all). We would've had to overpay Hasselback to come into an unfamiliar system with an inferior offensive line to where he is now.

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

LOL. So there's no absolute value on NFL draft picks. By your measure, we could've given up 2 firsts for Kolb, but we wouldn't be able to grade the trade until we find out whether or not the draft picks work out? Give me a break.

Would DRC be benched here? Of course not. We'd just have the best CB corps this side of the New York Jets, with maybe a better pass rush at this point. The Eagles' pass D fell apart once DRC got injured yesterday, but apparently he's garbage. Whatever.

I said it all offseason, and you gave me a ration of ***** for it: We should have signed Alex Smith. Any of the free agents would've been as good as Kolb for 50% of the price, and zero draft pick compensation. DRC + a second round pick + Skelton + money to re-sign Campbell and Doucet >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kolb.

We could have traded up to take Andy Dalton ahead of the Bengals or drafted Ryan Mallett and been in better shape for the short- or long-term than the stupid trade for Kevin Kolb.

There's no argument to be made that you have to go into training camp with a definite starter at quarterback. A rookie would've had an extra 10 days of practice time than Kolb had and we wouldn't have to mortgage the future to have him. A free agent QB would've competed for the position with Skelton, and if Skelton outplays him then you release him the next year, or he's a Mark Brunell-style veteran backup.

And you end with the fallacy that because Warner with an awful coaching staff struggled here that Kolb with a consistent coaching staff (that Warner immediately blossomed under) will do the same. Nice work, but I'm not falling for it. Call me when Kolb goes to two Super Bowls and is two-time NFL MVP before coming here.

You seem to be putting an absolute value on the draft pick because it sounds like that 2nd rounder, again Kolb was a high 2nd rounder, has alot more value to you than me. The potential is there to be great but there is also potential to not make it out of camp.

I was against giving up DRC but you are lamenting the loss of the 2nd round pick being the worst part of the trade, not DRC.

What does what Warner did in St.Louis have to do with what he did in Arizona?

Call me when Alex Smith throws for man 300 yards in a game this season. They win in spite of him. If you're going to use the he's winning argument then I'm sure you would be happy with Tim Tebow at QB.

 

[kerouac9]

You seem to be putting an absolute value on the draft pick because it sounds like that 2nd rounder, again Kolb was a high 2nd rounder, has alot more value to you than me. The potential is there to be great but there is also potential to not make it out of camp.

I was against giving up DRC but you are lamenting the loss of the 2nd round pick being the worst part of the trade, not DRC.

What does what Warner did in St.Louis have to do with what he did in Arizona?

Call me when Alex Smith throws for man 300 yards in a game this season. They win in spite of him. If you're going to use the he's winning argument then I'm sure you would be happy with Tim Tebow at QB.

Winning argument here. We're losing because of Kevin Kolb. I'd prefer to win in spite of him throwing 11 TDs against 3 INTs, but unfortunately Kolb hasn't been that good.

But I guess if you're going to pay 4 times as much, plus draft pick compensation and a former Pro Bowler, for inferior production, that's a choice you have to make.

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

Winning argument here. We're losing because of Kevin Kolb. I'd prefer to win in spite of him throwing 11 TDs against 3 INTs, but unfortunately Kolb hasn't been that good.

But I guess if you're going to pay 4 times as much, plus draft pick compensation and a former Pro Bowler, for inferior production, that's a choice you have to make.

I'm not against Skelton and have said I would play him as long the winning streak continues. However, I think the defensive improvement has as much, or more to do with the current 2 game win streak as anything. Take away PP returns and the Cards averaged 18.4 points per game with Kolb against much better competition than 16.5 points per game under Skelton. BUt, like I said , I'd stick with Skelton as long as the wins keep coming.

 

[JeffGollin]

I'm not against Skelton and have said I would play him as long the winning streak continues. However, I think the defensive improvement has as much, or more to do with the current 2 game win streak as anything. Take away PP returns and the Cards averaged 18.4 points per game with Kolb against much better competition than 16.5 points per game under Skelton. BUt, like I said , I'd stick with Skelton as long as the wins keep coming.

Ditto. In the end, it comes down to making more plays than mistakes. Lately, we've been netting a "plus" and winning games. Bottom line - Skelton has helped nudge us over the top, but defensive plays and fewer mistakes have put us in a position for Skelton to help us win.

 

[WisconsinCard]

I was one who did not like the trade, I wanted JS to be given a chance to start. That being said I did give the FO props for doing it tho. They picked their guy and they went and got him. The old cards do nothing at least they tried we'll have to wait and see how it pans out.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I was one who did not like the trade, I wanted JS to be given a chance to start. That being said I did give the FO props for doing it tho. They picked their guy and they went and got him. The old cards do nothing at least they tried we'll have to wait and see how it pans out.

I felt the same way. I wasn't convinced that Skelton would turn into a solid QB but figured that both he and Kolb were risks so why not go with the less expensive choice. Once they decided they had to go elsewhere for a starter though, I was impressed with the aggressiveness with which they pursued their guy. In hindsight, we'd probably have been better off if they had dragged their feet like the same old Cards would have done but it is what it is.

Steve

 

[conraddobler]

I felt the same way. I wasn't convinced that Skelton would turn into a solid QB but figured that both he and Kolb were risks so why not go with the less expensive choice. Once they decided they had to go elsewhere for a starter though, I was impressed with the aggressiveness with which they pursued their guy. In hindsight, we'd probably have been better off if they had dragged their feet like the same old Cards would have done but it is what it is.

Steve

These are not the same old Cardinals, they are the new and IMPROVED Cardinals, finding new and exciting ways to suck!

 

[jmt]

IMO Kolb is our starter and if he can play should until the season ends Punto.

 

[Duckjake]

These are not the same old Cardinals, they are the new and IMPROVED Cardinals, finding new and exciting ways to suck!

Wait! Yesterday was like we were in another dimension. Things were bouncing our way. Fitz grabs not one but two tipped passes. The Iggles are dropping balls left and right. The refs got them as much as they did us. It was surreal.

 

[kerouac9]

I'm not against Skelton and have said I would play him as long the winning streak continues. However, I think the defensive improvement has as much, or more to do with the current 2 game win streak as anything. Take away PP returns and the Cards averaged 18.4 points per game with Kolb against much better competition than 16.5 points per game under Skelton. BUt, like I said , I'd stick with Skelton as long as the wins keep coming.

Yes, Minneapolis, Washington, Carolina, and Seattle are all powerhouses. What a stupid argument this is.

You can keep repeating these same things, but your argument is so bereft of factual evidence that it's almost embarrassing to keep replying to your posts.

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

Yes, Minneapolis, Washington, Carolina, and Seattle are all powerhouses. What a stupid argument this is.

You can keep repeating these same things, but your argument is so bereft of factual evidence that it's almost embarrassing to keep replying to your posts.

It's funny that you left out Pittsburgh, Baltimore, and the Giants which is a pretty stupid thing to do considering they are 3 of the BEST teams in the NFL. I realize in your mind, or to support your stance, that they may not be in the class of the 2-7 Rams or 3-6 Eagles but they're still pretty good.

And Seattle has beaten Baltimore and the Giants, unless that's bereft of factual evidence.

 

[Duckjake]

It's funny that you left out Pittsburgh, Baltimore, and the Giants which is a pretty stupid thing to do considering they are 3 of the BEST teams in the NFL. I realize in your mind, or to support your stance, that they may not be in the class of the 2-7 Rams or 3-6 Eagles but they're still pretty good.

And Seattle has beaten Baltimore and the Giants, unless that's befect of factual evidence.

They did that with Tavaris Jackson/Charlie Whitehurst? We suck.

 

[Phrazbit]

It's funny that you left out Pittsburgh, Baltimore, and the Giants which is a pretty stupid thing to do considering they are 3 of the BEST teams in the NFL. I realize in your mind, or to support your stance, that they may not be in the class of the 2-7 Rams or 3-6 Eagles but they're still pretty good.

And Seattle has beaten Baltimore and the Giants, unless that's bereft of factual evidence.

I think the implication is that Kolb has faced more than his share of really bad teams... and still wet the bed.

And his defense handed him the Ravens game. I dont see us losing that gift wrapped victory with Skelton at the helm instead of Kolb and the moon-walking he did in the 2nd half.

 

[daves]

the biggest difference I see in the Skelton McCown comparison is McCown was just NEVER clutch.

Cheesy, i first of all i DO think Skelton has already shown a little more than McCown with less experience... and i DO think he has a higher ceiling than McCown.

But you can't say McCown was "NEVER" clutch. The 2003 Vikings would certainly say otherwise, and he couldn't have pulled off a 9-10 record as a starter in 2004-2005 on a team that went 2-11 in games he didn't start without playing clutch at times. Those teams certainly weren't blessed with great running games or defenses.

That team was always seemingly winning games in spite of him and while Skelton hasn't even been "good" yet in a game, the guy has shown some MAJOR stones in three games so far in his career, leading game winning or game tying drives late in the fourth quarter.

I dunno... i remember several games that the Cardinals won that were certainly not in spite of McCown (e.g. the one in Mexico City where the Cardinals pummeled the 49ers behind a 32-46-385-2-0 performance by McCown)

And while i wouldn't say that the Cardinals won the last two games "in spite of Skelton", he did lead those game-winning or -tying drives, in Plummer-esque fashion, after first putting the Cardinals in a hole via the two safeties (!) in the Rams game and the pick-six and the second awful interception that set up the Eagles for a go-ahead score with 5 minutes to go. I think most of the credit for both wins belongs to the defense and special teams.

That gives me a little more hope for him... that and the fact that he's a pretty damn tough SOB who actually has somewhat good pocket presence which is something you just can't teach.

Once again, McCown was as tough as any QB i've EVER seen play for the Cardinals. And i really didn't post in this thread to rain on the parade - i have liked Skelton since he was drafted, especially after seeing the Sports Science piece. I'd love to see him succeed as the Cardinals QBOF and i have a fair amount of hope that he could. I'm just cautious about getting ahead of ourselves in these "giddy times" after the big two-game winning streak, and i think the McCown comparison puts things into perspective. I liked McCown too but it turned out that his upside was nowhere near as high as we hope to see out of our next QB.

...dave