Kevin Kolb in MVP Discussion?

[Mulli]

Wait I was wrong. The Jets game was a game where Warner, who was just another Jake Plummer, got the team in a hole early and tried to make a miracle comeback. Because we all know that, as Mulli claims, Warner was just like Jake Plummer but nobody called him a Jake Plummer clone.

I claimed what?

 

[Darkside]

If you look at strictly stats, he's killing it. If you look at wins...there you are again. If you look at some clutch throws and plays, once again.

It's not stupid.

He's making some mistakes for sure...everyone does. He's also making some good plays, too. And he's played some good teams, too, with good defenses.

I'm happy with Kolb...he's doing his job and doing it damn well. We are 4-0 against a tough schedule, and he's played more than damn decent.

Let him get some MVP chatter...unlikely he gets it at the end of the season, but I sure as ef ain't gonna bluster and bitch because he's being recognized for playing well.

Love this post.

It's still way early to be discussing MVP's, obviously. You hit all the key points in my mind though--not necessarily toward an MVP discussion but toward at least solidifying his position on our team and the way he's played (in the fans eyes).

I really don't think Kolb is going to get any credit in some people's minds, no matter what he does. I firmly believe that.

Stats that I care about (doesn't mean you have to):

1. Ranked # 9 in QB rating with 97.6.
2. Completion percentage of 62.6%. (Warner was at 62.3, 67.1, and 66.1 his last 3 years with us according to NFL.com)
3. 7.03 yards per attempt. (Brady is at 7.97; Matt Ryan is at 7.91, Ben Roth is at 7.53)
4. 7 TD's, 2 INT's (with virtually 1 less game). (Only guys with more TD's in top 10: Ryan 11/2. Ben 8/2. Dalton 8/4. Manning 8/3)
5. Sacked 13 times (with virtually 1 less game). More than anyone else in the top 10, though Smith and Dalton each have 12--again though, with almost a full extra game)

I think the questions about his toughness should be put to rest. Not the concussion issue, that's separate. But I don't think we can question his toughness, given that he's taken more sacks and hits than anyone. There's only two QB's in the entire NFL who've taken more sacks than Kolb: Rodgers with 16 and Bradford with 14. Had Kolb played the entire season he would be the #1 sacked QB in the NFL. Yet he's still top 10 as far as efficiency (QB rating), even after all those hits. Don't care who it is, you have to be tough to do that.

Lastly, his drive against Seattle and the drive against Miami shows he's clutch. Every QB makes mistakes every game, but it really is all about how you finish games. The question is can he finish tight games and make those passes against stellar teams (against division rival SF, late in the game, one possession left). I've no idea, but I would absolutely love for Kolb to go from goat to franchise during the season. I would love for him to make some game-winning plays against division rivals, take us to the playoffs, and enter the NFC Championship game to chants of "Ke-vin, Ke-vin," over and over. That's what I want.

Go BIG RED!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[DeAnna]

I claimed what?

You're on ignore, remember?

 

[Mulli]

You're on ignore, remember?

 

[Shane]

If you look at strictly stats, he's killing it. If you look at wins...there you are again. If you look at some clutch throws and plays, once again.

It's not stupid.

He's making some mistakes for sure...everyone does. He's also making some good plays, too. And he's played some good teams, too, with good defenses.

I'm happy with Kolb...he's doing his job and doing it damn well. We are 4-0 against a tough schedule, and he's played more than damn decent.

Let him get some MVP chatter...unlikely he gets it at the end of the season, but I sure as ef ain't gonna bluster and bitch because he's being recognized for playing well.

Booyah

 

[Duckjake]

Not true. I think QB wins are the most meaningless of all QB stats. ALL. I've said this in the past as well. QBs have a lot of say in wins and losses, but nowhere near enough to point to Ws and make that a measuring stick. Way too many moving parts, especially on teams with strong defenses or special teams. Rex Grossman "won" the monday night meltdown, but the Bears offense didn't even score a TD.

I don't ignore anything...if it WASN'T for Skelton being clutch, I wouldn't like the guy at all. He IS clutch, and it's awesome.

I have confidence that Skelton can win us games. I think Kolb is the better QB with the higher ceiling. Skelton is tougher and better in the pocket. Kolb is more accurate and throws a better ball.

I think sometimes people try to (and not you specifically, DJ) make it Kolb or Skelton, take your guy and ride or die. I like both, but think Kolb with his head right gives us the best chance to win. In the preseason, his head was WRONG and thus Skelton gave us the best chance to win.

I completely disagree. Very few games are won with only the defense and special teams scoring. There's a reason people talk about needing a top QB to win. Because those are the guys who win! You have Jeff Blake and Josh McCown and Shaun King or Matt Leinart or an old Dave Kreig or a Tom Tupa and you are going 5-11 more times than not.

I do completely agree on the Kolb/Skelton deal. Even wrote to that effect yesterday. It's like the Beanie/Hightower stuff from 2010. Never could figure out why so many people thought praising one guy was dissing the other.

 

[D-Dogg]

I completely disagree. Very few games are won with only the defense and special teams scoring. There's a reason people talk about needing a top QB to win. Because those are the guys who win! You have Jeff Blake and Josh McCown and Shaun King or Matt Leinart or an old Dave Kreig or a Tom Tupa and you are going 5-11 more times than not.

I do completely agree on the Kolb/Skelton deal. Even wrote to that effect yesterday. It's like the Beanie/Hightower stuff from 2010. Never could figure out why so many people thought praising one guy was dissing the other.

I just think that QBs have LESS to do overall with wins than say a pitcher, where Ws are what you judge them on. Or even a basketball player.

With 22 guys taking most of the snaps, and special teams as well, tacking wins onto a QB is kind of overstating the fact, IMO. I personally think Olines and Dlines are more important.

Now, obviously sometimes wins can be planted on a QB's back pretty well...Manning had a lot of them. But the vast majority of wins in the NFL are team wins. Not QB wins.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

I think the questions about his toughness should be put to rest. Not the concussion issue, that's separate. But I don't think we can question his toughness, given that he's taken more sacks and hits than anyone. There's only two QB's in the entire NFL who've taken more sacks than Kolb: Rodgers with 16 and Bradford with 14. Had Kolb played the entire season he would be the #1 sacked QB in the NFL. Yet he's still top 10 as far as efficiency (QB rating), even after all those hits. Don't care who it is, you have to be tough to do that.

Not so sure about that. Fact is until he got sacked by Miami 8 times he only had 5 sacks through 2 1/4 games.

 

[Duckjake]

I just think that QBs have LESS to do overall with wins than say a pitcher, where Ws are what you judge them on. Or even a basketball player.

With 22 guys taking most of the snaps, and special teams as well, tacking wins onto a QB is kind of overstating the fact, IMO. I personally think Olines and Dlines are more important.

Now, obviously sometimes wins can be planted on a QB's back pretty well...Manning had a lot of them. But the vast majority of wins in the NFL are team wins. Not QB wins.

I'd agree except that the more talented QBs win more than the lesser talented guys. However, you could make something of a case for your side by pointing out all the failures at QB who were drafted by bad teams. But then you also have QBs drafted to bad teams who turned those teams into winners. So who the heck knows?

 

[D-Dogg]

I'd agree except that the more talented QBs win more than the lesser talented guys. However, you could make something of a case for your side by pointing out all the failures at QB who were drafted by bad teams. But then you also have QBs drafted to bad teams who turned those teams into winners. So who the heck knows?

I don't disagree that they aren't a part...a large part even. But when it comes to QBs I like to look at in order:

1. Completion percentage
2. INT/TD ratio
3. YPA
4. QB rating (not QBR or whatever ESPN made up, but the real rating)
5. Wins

The more talented QBs win more often because they excel in 1 & 2, IMO. But sometimes 5 comes without 1&2.

If you asked me to pick just one, I'd be hard pressed to pick between 1 and 3 though...because a blended stat of those two if it were sound, would to me be the proof in the pudding. If you complete at a high rate, and they aren't dumpoffs, you probably will be high on 2, 4 and 5.

 

[Darkside]

Not so sure about that. Fact is until he got sacked by Miami 8 times he only had 5 sacks through 2 1/4 games.

I thought about that also, but you can't just remove plays. I'm sure Miami fans are thinking if Kolb hadn't thrown that game-tying TD they would have won. Rodgers got sacked 8 times against Seattle. We can't just remove plays. Like people who say if Gore hadn't broken out those 3 long 60 yard runs he'd only have 75 yards rushing instead of 200+. Remove those and his game is average. LOL. Those plays count, they're written down somewhere. Probably in Cameron Wake's sock drawer.

 

[Russ Smith]

I just think that QBs have LESS to do overall with wins than say a pitcher, where Ws are what you judge them on. Or even a basketball player.

With 22 guys taking most of the snaps, and special teams as well, tacking wins onto a QB is kind of overstating the fact, IMO. I personally think Olines and Dlines are more important.

Now, obviously sometimes wins can be planted on a QB's back pretty well...Manning had a lot of them. But the vast majority of wins in the NFL are team wins. Not QB wins.

Pitchers shouldn't be judged by wins either though. The standard was the Bob Welch Cy Young where he won a ton of games but mainly because he got so much run support.

That's been the case with both Skelton and Kolb during this surge, neither guy has lit it up or even played great, but the defense has been so good and add in special teams(save some coverage issues here and there) and we're winning.

Kolb so far this year has outperformed IMO what Skelton did last year but who really cares as long as we win. If they're both healthy and Kolb continues at this pace he should start IMO, he starts to slack off and Skelton is healthy no issue at all going back to him. we have 2 that can play well enough to win, hopefully one or both will continue to get better and the offense will start to catch up to rest of the team.

 

[Crimson Warrior]

uh... wha? Dude's been a HELL of a lot better than last year, but up until the last play of the game last week, a 4th down... against a BAD dolphins team AT HOME, he had a 2:2 TD:INT ratio and had led the team to a whopping 14 points.

like i said, he's been much better... and I'd even venture to say GOOD through the first three games, but trending towards great is an incredible stretch IMO.

Say you're sorry for calling him "hot garbage" cheese!

SAY IT or I'll give you a noogie!

 

[Jetstream Green]

Good ahead and laugh, but if this team keeps winning...yes, Kolb could get MVP

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

I thought about that also, but you can't just remove plays. I'm sure Miami fans are thinking if Kolb hadn't thrown that game-tying TD they would have won. Rodgers got sacked 8 times against Seattle. We can't just remove plays. Like people who say if Gore hadn't broken out those 3 long 60 yard runs he'd only have 75 yards rushing instead of 200+. Remove those and his game is average. LOL. Those plays count, they're written down somewhere. Probably in Cameron Wake's sock drawer.

I'm not trying to take out sacks here, but the fact is that the Miami game was by far the worst game this year for the OLine and prior to that they had given up 6 sacks total through the first 3 games. Even with the 8 from Miami odds are that he would not have been sacked 3-4 times in the first 3 quarters of the Seattle game as Skelton was only sacked once during that time.

 

[Mulli]

Good ahead and laugh, but if this team keeps winning...yes, Kolb could get MVP

Ya, why not have fun and go with it.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

I don't disagree that they aren't a part...a large part even. But when it comes to QBs I like to look at in order:

1. Completion percentage
2. INT/TD ratio
3. YPA
4. QB rating (not QBR or whatever ESPN made up, but the real rating)
5. Wins

The more talented QBs win more often because they excel in 1 & 2, IMO. But sometimes 5 comes without 1&2.

If you asked me to pick just one, I'd be hard pressed to pick between 1 and 3 though...because a blended stat of those two if it were sound, would to me be the proof in the pudding. If you complete at a high rate, and they aren't dumpoffs, you probably will be high on 2, 4 and 5.

You do realize that you get #4 by equating #'s 1, 2 and 3 right? Also that is referred to as Passer Rating and QB Rating is the stat that ESPN came up with. The problem with Passer Rating as apposed to QBR is that it doesn't take into account sacks or fumbles or negative rushing yards or for that matter positive rushing yards and rushing TDs. It only equates what you did as a passer, but there is more to being a QB than just throwing the ball.

 

[Duckjake]

I don't disagree that they aren't a part...a large part even. But when it comes to QBs I like to look at in order:

1. Completion percentage
2. INT/TD ratio
3. YPA
4. QB rating (not QBR or whatever ESPN made up, but the real rating)
5. Wins

The more talented QBs win more often because they excel in 1 & 2, IMO. But sometimes 5 comes without 1&2.

If you asked me to pick just one, I'd be hard pressed to pick between 1 and 3 though...because a blended stat of those two if it were sound, would to me be the proof in the pudding. If you complete at a high rate, and they aren't dumpoffs, you probably will be high on 2, 4 and 5.

I read an article where a respected writer said that yards per attempt was the key stat. That you could just look at that one number and nothing else and tell who won the game in the majority of cases. I've found that to be true especially in college football. Well, before most of the college teams in the country decided to no longer defend the pass.

Just for fun I looked at last weeks NFL games. Teams with the higher ypa were 13-3. (Well of course the Cards were one of the three exceptions beating Miami who had 10.5 ypa vs our 6.75. The Cards never do anything normal.)

But to me wins, especially late comebacks, and interception % are the most important stats.

 

[D-Dogg]

You do realize that you get #4 by equating #'s 1, 2 and 3 right? Also that is referred to as Passer Rating and QB Rating is the stat that ESPN came up with. The problem with Passer Rating as apposed to QBR is that it doesn't take into account sacks or fumbles or negative rushing yards or for that matter positive rushing yards and rushing TDs. It only equates what you did as a passer, but there is more to being a QB than just throwing the ball.

I was giving them in order of importance. Passer Rating (thank you for clarifying...effing ESPN) is nice but I put more weight on 1, then 2, then 3. So Passer rating overall is ok but not the be-all end all.

And QBR is a super crap stat, sorry. It just is. I don't care about sacks or fumbles or neg rushing yards. Sacks aren't always qb fault, and often not. Rushing yards and TDs inflates QB stats for guys like Teblow. It's a crap stat.

But again, as to passer rating...I find the components to be more than the sum of the components. Passer Rating can be deceptive without the context of the three stats.

 

[A fan who cares]

MVP for Kolb? I doubt it.

Comeback player of the year? Kolb could be in the running

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

I was giving them in order of importance. Passer Rating (thank you for clarifying...effing ESPN) is nice but I put more weight on 1, then 2, then 3. So Passer rating overall is ok but not the be-all end all.

And QBR is a super crap stat, sorry. It just is. I don't care about sacks or fumbles or neg rushing yards. Sacks aren't always qb fault, and often not. Rushing yards and TDs inflates QB stats for guys like Teblow. It's a crap stat.

But again, as to passer rating...I find the components to be more than the sum of the components. Passer Rating can be deceptive without the context of the three stats.

Well I suppose none of those stats are all that good on their own. Because you can have a high completion percentage, but have multiple turnovers and a low YPA. It could work like that with every stat, but I think you get the point and I think everyone has their own opinion on the best way to judge a QB statistically.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

I read an article where a respected writer said that yards per attempt was the key stat. That you could just look at that one number and nothing else and tell who won the game in the majority of cases. I've found that to be true especially in college football. Well, before most of the college teams in the country decided to no longer defend the pass.

Just for fun I looked at last weeks NFL games. Teams with the higher ypa were 13-3. (Well of course the Cards were one of the three exceptions beating Miami who had 10.5 ypa vs our 6.75. The Cards never do anything normal.)

But to me wins, especially late comebacks, and interception % are the most important stats.

Messing around with a Passer Rating calculator it does appear that YPA has the biggest effect on the final calculation.

 

[splitsecond]

Yeah the MVP thing... well I'd love it because it means we have had a heck of a season, but it seems silly. Comeback player of the year? Now that's a possibility if he keeps it up.

 

[DoTheDew]

That's more an indictment on the mediocre season that Rodgers has had than a genuine petition for Kolb to be an MVP candidate.

OT: Why is it that MVP has to be an offensive award? Defensive players don't get enough credit in this league.

 

[Stout]

The mere fact that we're having this discussion makes me all the more thrilled at how the season is going.