Key Phrase in Urban's Latest Propaganda Piece

[Catfish]

I think that Arians had a say on the minimum-salary guys that came in, and almost no say in the talented players that we let leave. It's difficult to believe that Arians would have okayed letting two very talented players like Kerry Rhodes and Adrian Wilson leave and replacing them with a has-been and a never was in Yeremiah Bell and Rashad Johnson.

Notice that there's nothing that says that Arians or Bowles are high on Rashard Johnson--in fact, the silence for Todd Bowles about the transformation of this defense has been deafening--but tons of quotes from Steve Keim saying that he was really impressed with how Rhodes played down the stretch.

It's likely that Johnson was a pick endoresed by Keim, and he's doubling down on a draft pick that has severely underperformed expectations.

I do think that cheese is being unfair in putting the onus of bad first-round picks on Keim. He shares that responsibility with Whis and Graves, and the majority of the blame for first-round picks lies with the head coach.

But the bad to mediocre players that we've drafted in the last four or five years? That's all on Keim.

Now this makes a lot more sense than the sole statement did. I would agree with you that BA more than likely would not have dumped both Wilson and Rhodes. (Wilson maybe, Rhodes doubtfully). I can concede that, (at least until we hear more from BA), Keim was the likely architect in the cut process. He has been a whirlwind of activity since the hire of BA and Staff, (not at all like Graves was). With all his hiriings and firings, it would be very easy to consider him as acting alone. I will say however, that one should be careful not to get so caught up in his constant activity so as to see him as the sole decision maker. The people brought in have BA's hand prints all over them.

I will also say, that with the exception of the Safety situation, that the replacements have been more than adequate for the people they replaced. What remains to be seen, is whether or not the management group continues to complete those replacements. We are still woefully short on both talent and bodies at safety. I believe that the attention to the D-line, ST's, (especially if Cribbs is landed), and to CB have been very good indeed. There still needs to be attention to the LB corps in my opinion. I am more than happy with the replacement of Beanie with Mendenhall.

It would appear that attention in the draft must come at TE, Safety, and OL. I am still not sold on the QB situation, and am very interested to see what, (if any), action we will take with regard to Carson Palmer. I would be very happy indeed if we could field a QB corps of Palmer and Stanton. That would make Hoyer expendable to my thinking, and something might be available by way of trade with the Steelers for him, as they had targeted him for Ben's backup. (Maybe we could come up with a Safety or a TE that way).

All in all, I am much less worried about our ability to approach the 2013 season than I was with Whiz at the helm. I still think that you give much less credit to BA than he deserves, despite the fact that this is his first stint as a head coach on his own. Many may have passed him over before, but I believe that his garnering coach of the year last year, with a much disrupted team, speaks volumes for his abilities as a HC. I do not hold the feeling that he will be gone in three years as you do, but that remains to be seen, and is pure conjecture at best either way it is viewed. I am looking forward to a very interesting, and spirited season.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

You just seem like the type of dude that's gonna complain at every turn.

Yup.

Ignoring logic?

Let me guess, this "logic" is your opinion on something, and he is ignorant for not agreeing with it.

Need a step ladder to get off that horse?

And his Agent apparently.



Let people call a spade a spade. Its not like other posters don't have their own M.O.

Complaining, taking the contrarian opinion, and being negative is K9's "thing". Been that way for 10 years now. That old dog ain learning new tricks so just roll withit. Although I have to say predicting the next 3 seasons and having Arians "fired" because of a Darren Urban article that says "as the GM shapes the roster in his image" (OMG THAT IS INSANE. WAIT THATS SUPPOSED TO BE THE GMS JOB RIGHT? Errrrr) and he has no actual authority is tin foil hat logic at its finest. But hey. Sure sounds like a "football opinion" to me.

Oh wait im supposed to have him on ignore.

BTW Im not trying to be rude here. Im just standing up for this posters right to call what he sees. You would think some of the regulars here would get if EVERYONE else is poining it out, well maybe there some truth to it.

Let the people speak. Its a message board. K9 knows what hes doing. Hes hiding his agenda pushing and needling/ talking down to other posters behind having "thoughtful football discussion" and God bless em some people actually are buying it!

 

[Arizona's Finest]

And just so I actually post on topic Ill say this.

Just like with Schnieder and Pete Carroll in Seattle and Balke and Harbaugh in SF, I believe the team will draft and build aroudn the shared values of Arians and Kiem, but if the decision comes down to it, its the GMs. Just like in SEA and SF.

Key is having harmony and alignment between those two people and how anyonce can predict otherwise before the actual draft is nonsense really.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

Also absolutely and incredibly with regards to the OP, if you look at what we have seen so far (Free agency) teh Cardinals HAVE acquired players based on Arians (or Bowles) knowledge and say.

Powers
Bell
Stanton
Amaya

Sure Arians doesnt have any say on the roster. Hes just without argument handpicked 40% of the people we signed in FA so far.

So whose pushing an agenda here....Urban or............

 

[MadCardDisease]

Also absolutely and incredibly with regards to the OP, if you look at what we have seen so far (Free agency) teh Cardinals HAVE acquired players based on Arians (or Bowles) knowledge and say.

Powers
Bell
Stanton
Amaya

Sure Arians doesnt have any say on the roster. Hes just without argument handpicked 40% of the people we signed in FA so far.

So whose pushing an agenda here....Urban or............

50%. You forgot Mendenhall. Although some of those guys you listed were probably picked by Bowles. Either way it was a group decision and not just Kiem with these picks. That can be said for sure.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

Yup.



And his Agent apparently.



Let people call a spade a spade. Its not like other posters don't have their own M.O.

Complaining, taking the contrarian opinion, and being negative is K9's "thing". Been that way for 10 years now. That old dog ain learning new tricks so just roll withit. Although I have to say predicting the next 3 seasons and having Arians "fired" because of a Darren Urban article that says "as the GM shapes the roster in his image" (OMG THAT IS INSANE. WAIT THATS SUPPOSED TO BE THE GMS JOB RIGHT? Errrrr) and he has no actual authority is tin foil hat logic at its finest. But hey. Sure sounds like a "football opinion" to me.

Oh wait im supposed to have him on ignore.

BTW Im not trying to be rude here. Im just standing up for this posters right to call what he sees. You would think some of the regulars here would get if EVERYONE else is poining it out, well maybe there some truth to it.

Let the people speak. Its a message board. K9 knows what hes doing. Hes hiding his agenda pushing and needling/ talking down to other posters behind having "thoughtful football discussion" and God bless em some people actually are buying it!

Weak Sauce.

K9 has every right to have his thoughts about the state of the football team.

Yet you are OK with people attack him personally?

You gotta a problem with what a poster says ? Then attack the subject not the person. You know like the other posters seem to be able to do in this case.

But if personal attacks are OK, is that the green light to come back to this post and shove it in people's faces when they are wrong and tell them how stupid they look because of their rude arrogance. I mean if some is always wrong we are just calling a spade a spade right.

Just saying. I mean the board thrives on people posting substance. If you just want to regugitate azcardinals.com then do so.

Not to mention the people that bring stuff to the site are what makes the site. How many of the people that spend most there time attacking people and not subjects add NOTHING to the site when it comes to football and the topics.

But whatever, as I said that is some weak sauce, and it is good to know you are 100% certain in what people's intentions are. And the you got some crazy vendetta against some posters.....hey, just calling a spade a spade again. Its all good right?

Give me a break.

If the negative nelly's on the board are such HORRIBLE fans why to they post some much substance on the board. Where is your thread, or some of the other GREAT FANS threads ? Looking for them, and just can't seem to find them.

I love it. The notion of "Thanks for posting, but you suck ____." is encouraged.

What a waste of a good thread, talking about internet personalties instead of football.

 

[Chopper0080]

Also absolutely and incredibly with regards to the OP, if you look at what we have seen so far (Free agency) teh Cardinals HAVE acquired players based on Arians (or Bowles) knowledge and say.

Powers
Bell
Stanton
Amaya

Sure Arians doesnt have any say on the roster. Hes just without argument handpicked 40% of the people we signed in FA so far.

So whose pushing an agenda here....Urban or............

Arians had a say on essentially a backup QB who has never started, a #3 CB who has never played an entire season, a 36 year old S on a 1 year deal and a ST guy. I'm not sure that is definitive evidenence that Arians has pull in the decision making process. I think it means that Keim is willing to listen to Arians when it comes fringe or low cost roster options.

Say what you want, no head coach would have been for cutting both Wilson and Rhodes and replacing them with Bell and Johnson. I am sure Arians wasn't going to fight the moves because it was a financial call, but no coach is for losing talent on a roster.

I am sure Keim listens to what Arians wants, but it has seemed pretty obvious to me from day 1 that Keim calls the shots.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

Also absolutely and incredibly with regards to the OP, if you look at what we have seen so far (Free agency) teh Cardinals HAVE acquired players based on Arians (or Bowles) knowledge and say.

Powers
Bell
Stanton
Amaya

Sure Arians doesnt have any say on the roster. Hes just without argument handpicked 40% of the people we signed in FA so far.

So whose pushing an agenda here....Urban or............

You just seem like the type of dude that's gonna toe the company line at every turn.

 

[Chopper0080]

Weak Sauce.

K9 has every right to have.his.thoughts about the state of the football team.

Yet you are OK with people attack him personally?

You gotta a problem with what a poster says ? Then attack the subject not the person. You know likw the other poster seem to be able to do in this case.

But if personal attacks are OK, is that the grren light to come back to this post and shove it in people's faces when they are wrong?

Just saying. I mean the board thrives on people posting substance. If you just want to regugitate azcardinals.com then do so.

But whatever, as I said that is some weak sauce, and it is good to know you are 100% certain in what people's intentions are.

Give me a break.

Yeah, this is pretty bush league. Of course, my consideration for AF's posts have dropped since he questioned K9's fandom which is pretty weak sauce IMO.

Keep it to football dude or get off the board. Nobody likes these personal attacks.

 

[Duckjake]

And just so I actually post on topic Ill say this.

Just like with Schnieder and Pete Carroll in Seattle and Balke and Harbaugh in SF, I believe the team will draft and build aroudn the shared values of Arians and Kiem, but if the decision comes down to it, its the GMs. Just like in SEA and SF.

Key is having harmony and alignment between those two people and how anyonce can predict otherwise before the actual draft is nonsense really.

For a some good information on how a GM and Coaching staff and scouts work together get John Feinstein's Next Man Up about the Baltimore Ravens in 2004.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

Weak Sauce.

K9 has every right to have his thoughts about the state of the football team.

Yet you are OK with people attack him personally?

You gotta a problem with what a poster says ? Then attack the subject not the person. You know like the other posters seem to be able to do in this case.

But if personal attacks are OK, is that the green light to come back to this post and shove it in people's faces when they are wrong and tell them how stupid they look because of their rude arrogance. I mean if some is always wrong we are just calling a spade a spade right.

Just saying. I mean the board thrives on people posting substance. If you just want to regugitate azcardinals.com then do so.

Not to mention the people that bring stuff to the site are what makes the site. How many of the people that spend most there time attacking people and not subjects add NOTHING to the site when it comes to football and the topics.

But whatever, as I said that is some weak sauce, and it is good to know you are 100% certain in what people's intentions are. And the you got some crazy vendetta against some posters.....hey, just calling a spade a spade again. Its all good right?

Give me a break.

What a waste of a good thread, talking about internet personalties instead of football.

Actually it's a terrible thread and I pointed out why. It's not based in fact.

And why is someone telling K9 he is negative a "personal attack"???

That's an opinion (something you are defending everyones right to have) on a poster who is TRYING to get under people's skin. If someone wants to point that out its all good.

 

[kerouac9]

For a some good information on how a GM and Coaching staff and scouts work together get John Feinstein's Next Man Up about the Baltimore Ravens in 2004.

I heartily endorse this recommendation. You can get a copy super-cheap on ABE.com, but you're better off going though Amazon using the ASFN portal.

If want to understand how modern football works from the front office perspective (ownership to coordinator level), check out Next Man Up.

If you want to understand it from the player's perspective as well--from the star quarterback to the special teams player--check out A Few Seconds of Panic by Stefan Fatsis. Bonus exposure to Jake Plummer, Mike Leach, and a final scene in the opening preseason of UofP.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

Yeah, this is pretty bush league. Of course, my consideration for AF's posts have dropped since he questioned K9's fandom which is pretty weak sauce IMO.

Keep it to football dude or get off the board. Nobody likes these personal attacks.

LOL your opinion on my thoughts changed when you see I am diametrically opposed to your contention that Arians sucks, Keim sucks, FA sucks rinse repeat.

And you don't understand te context of me calling K9 not a fan. I truly believe he doesn't actually watch games. I mean maybe he attends them but I hve never seen him cite something he saw or learned from actual watching. It's all football outsider and PFF. Not to mention he doesn't actually like anything about the team lol. But that's besides the point.

It's very simple. It's the Kool aid camp and te Darksiders camp. Very little I between ( although I don't think te cards are going to be very good this year I like what they are doing) and the same damn people fall into the same damn camps.

I don't actually mind your take Chopper. But K9s I don't even take seriously anymore. So contrived and formulaic. You could actually name a Az Cardinals topic and I could tell you exactly what his take is going to be.

 

[Shane]

Me thinks someone is reading entirely too much into one simple phrase. Of course its the GM's job to build the team thats what he is hired to do. He takes ultimate responsibility. But to think he is not doing so without input and decision making from his HC is just a little darn silly.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

For a some good information on how a GM and Coaching staff and scouts work together get John Feinstein's Next Man Up about the Baltimore Ravens in 2004.

Thanks DJ Ill pick it up for my flight back. Along the same lines I would recommend War Room by Michael Holley. Made me gain appreciation for Tom Dmitroff

 

[Arizona's Finest]

Me thinks someone is reading entirely too much into one simple phrase. Of course its the GM's job to build the team thats what he is hired to do. He takes ultimate responsibility. But to think he is not doing so without input and decision making from his HC is just a little darn silly.

Yup. Said much shorter as better then myself

 

[Cheesebeef]

+1

you can delete that Rug... I wrote it, but after a second realized there's no need to inflame the situation by complaining about another poster's attack. just leads to a ridiculous cycle.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

Actually it's a terrible thread and I pointed out why. It's not based in fact.

Compared the thread that you posted right ? ..... wait, where is that thread ?

Those facts. Care to find links, and back it up ?

And why is someone telling K9 he is negative a "personal attack"??? .

What does it have to do about football ? Is this TMZ or a football board ?

Who cares ? If he is wrong then attack the subject.

That's an opinion (something you are defending everyones right to have) on a poster who is TRYING to get under people's skin. If someone wants to point that out its all good.

You are 100% assuming what someone's intention is. That is fine, but take your little school yard fight some where else on the board, or send a private message.

Again, point out what is wrong with the topic, not the person, cause no one cares about your or Finito's opinion of K9. I do care about what both of you have to say about the subject.

Finally, I and other are not going to sit back and be called named, and be placed under arrogant and foolish assumptions because people think we are too negative. It is what people think about a situation. Because it doesn't line up with what you think is right is absolutely no reason to attack the person.

This acting the fool and being over dramatic to manipulate and discourage people from posting what they want on a public board is pathetic, and annoying. And if it annoys me, I will take the time to voice that opinion.

Why? Cause I have been on the end of that, and it sucks. If left to grow then this board becomes intolerable, with every thread followed up with 25 replies of "You're a stupid dorkface that hates the team."

Yeah, this guy spends 6 hours a day talking about the team over the last 20 years, and puts hours of time into putting things out there to discuss with fellow fans. Yeah, he must HATE ALL OF US, and this team with serious venom. Yeah.

I think your judgements that you are SO CERTAIN of are a little off base, and my FACT for that is that the people you are going after have been fans and have poured time and passion into this board for years.

So, if you are so absolutely taken back by the posting of things that are not fact, then go yell at yourself in the mirror, cause your are WAY off base. Just pointing that out, you know... all good.

 

[MadCardDisease]

Actually it's a terrible thread and I pointed out why. It's not based in fact.

And why is someone telling K9 he is negative a "personal attack"???

That's an opinion (something you are defending everyones right to have) on a poster who is TRYING to get under people's skin. If someone wants to point that out its all good.

Actually you are allowed to debate ideas. You are NOT allowed to attack the poster.

Site Guidelines:
http://www.arizonasportsfans.com/vb/f4/please-read-the-cardinal-guidelines-of-this-site-44083.html

The following activities will not be tolerated:

- Aggression or annoyance towards any member whether in forums or private messages. Debate the idea, don't attack the poster

Thanks

 

[RugbyMuffin]

you can delete that Rug... I wrote it, but after a second realized there's no need to inflame the situation by complaining about another poster's attack. just leads to a ridiculous cycle.

Done.

Darn tootin'

There are other threads to talk about, and a ignore button to implement.

 

[Chopper0080]

LOL your opinion on my thoughts changed when you see I am diametrically opposed to your contention that Arians sucks, Keim sucks, FA sucks rinse repeat.

And you don't understand te context of me calling K9 not a fan. I truly believe he doesn't actually watch games. I mean maybe he attends them but I hve never seen him cite something he saw or learned from actual watching. It's all football outsider and PFF. Not to mention he doesn't actually like anything about the team lol. But that's besides the point.

It's very simple. It's the Kool aid camp and te Darksiders camp. Very little I between ( although I don't think te cards are going to be very good this year I like what they are doing) and the same damn people fall into the same damn camps.

I don't actually mind your take Chopper. But K9s I don't even take seriously anymore. So contrived and formulaic. You could actually name a Az Cardinals topic and I could tell you exactly what his take is going to be.

I actually post on this board to get people's opnions that vary from mine. That is how I see things from angles that make me review my own. My issue is that it seems your posts are increasingly more about K9 as a poster and less about your difference in the matter being discussed. IMO this takes from your value as a poster on this board.

In short, I would prefer to hear you interpretation of Urban's artice rather than your thoughts on why K9 is posting it and how you feel it futhers his agenda.

 

[kerouac9]

Me thinks someone is reading entirely too much into one simple phrase. Of course its the GM's job to build the team thats what he is hired to do. He takes ultimate responsibility. But to think he is not doing so without input and decision making from his HC is just a little darn silly.

Fair enough on the "input" side. I've never said that Arians doesn't have input. I've specifically said that Keim without question seeks advice and counsel--particularly on whom he's going to bring in.

But the "decision-making" is the place where I think we part ways. This article doesn't create, only confirms, my opinion that Keim is the "decision-maker" in the front office. As Chopper says, no responsible head coach is going to think that his team is more talented going from Adrian Wilson and Kerry Rhodes to Rashad Johnson and Yeremiah Bell.

People who believe and trust Keim should be thrilled with this additional confirmation of what should be becoming increasingly clear. If you're skeptical of Keim and hope that there's more of a Graves-like consensus-building approach in personnel moves, this should be of concern, I would guess.

As I said, if Keim is in control, and Arians is going to be responsible for the product on the field, it's difficult to accept that Arians is being provided with the best possible talent to put that product on the field.

 

[Chopper0080]

Fair enough on the "input" side. I've never said that Arians doesn't have input. I've specifically said that Keim without question seeks advice and counsel--particularly on whom he's going to bring in.

But the "decision-making" is the place where I think we part ways. This article doesn't create, only confirms, my opinion that Keim is the "decision-maker" in the front office. As Chopper says, no responsible head coach is going to think that his team is more talented going from Adrian Wilson and Kerry Rhodes to Rashad Johnson and Yeremiah Bell.

People who believe and trust Keim should be thrilled with this additional confirmation of what should be becoming increasingly clear. If you're skeptical of Keim and hope that there's more of a Graves-like consensus-building approach in personnel moves, this should be of concern, I would guess.

As I said, if Keim is in control, and Arians is going to be responsible for the product on the field, it's difficult to accept that Arians is being provided with the best possible talent to put that product on the field.

And to give Mike Bidwill credit, the GM should have the decision making power. It is important for the decision maker to focus on the long-term viability of the franchise rather than the immediate return. That is something coaches struggle with because they are pressured to win now. Baltimore is a great example of how a top GM keeps focus on the future of a franchise rather than the present. You can argue that a weak GM has been the main cause of the Cardinals going from a playoff team to a top 10 drafting team. However, whether or not Keim is going to be successful in this role is highly debatable.

 

[kerouac9]

And to give Mike Bidwill credit, the GM should have the decision making power. It is important for the decision maker to focus on the long-term viability of the franchise rather than the immediate return. That is something coaches struggle with because they are pressured to win now. Baltimore is a great example of how a top GM keeps focus on the future of a franchise rather than the present. You can argue that a weak GM has been the main cause of the Cardinals going from a playoff team to a top 10 drafting team. However, whether or not Keim is going to be successful in this role is highly debatable.

I agree with all of this. It's exactly what I thought/intended to lay out in the original post. If you're reading the work out of AZCardinals.com closely, it should be clear that Arians is commenting on the roster, but Keim is controlling it. Stuff like Arians's saying "I thought about drafting Housler and making him a big wide receiver" is telling about potential conflicts between evaluations of certain positions and players.

What should be completely clear is who has the confidence of ownership right now when it comes to resolving those conflicts. Keim decisions are Cardinal decisions. And that's been the consistent message from Hardy Drive since he was hired.

Whether or not that will lead to short-term (I'm doubting it) or long-term (who knows) success on the grass is a completely open question.

 

[MadCardDisease]

And to give Mike Bidwill credit, the GM should have the decision making power. It is important for the decision maker to focus on the long-term viability of the franchise rather than the immediate return. That is something coaches struggle with because they are pressured to win now. Baltimore is a great example of how a top GM keeps focus on the future of a franchise rather than the present. You can argue that a weak GM has been the main cause of the Cardinals going from a playoff team to a top 10 drafting team. However, whether or not Keim is going to be successful in this role is highly debatable.

When Keim was introduced this is what Mike said about the GM and Coach:

Michael Bidwill said he believes the most successful teams have a collaborative situation between general manager and head coach, and he sees the power resting between both with “Cardinal decisions.” Keim has already been part of head coaching interviews