Kobe strikes again

[D-Dogg]

"LOL" what? You've never seen kids on the playground hurt someone, then go out of their way to apologize so that it looks like they didn't mean it?

If it looks like b.s. and smells like b.s., it's most likely b.s.

You are reaching so damn hard, e.

 

[elindholm]

You are reaching so damn hard, e.

No, you're the one fabricating one bogus alibi after another. First it was a normal shooting motion. Then it was a follow-through designed to draw a call. Then it was an okay play because the victim said so. Then it was unintentional because Bryant apologized afterward. On and on and on.

Each absurd excuse gets shot down, so you accuse other people of "reaching." I don't think so.

It's not a big deal. Bryant took a cheap shot and got caught. Life goes on. I still think he's a great player.

 

[D-Dogg]

No, you're the one fabricating one bogus alibi after another. First it was a normal shooting motion. Then it was a follow-through designed to draw a call. Then it was an okay play because the victim said so. Then it was unintentional because Bryant apologized afterward. On and on and on.

Each absurd excuse gets shot down, so you accuse other people of "reaching." I don't think so.

It's not a big deal. Bryant took a cheap shot and got caught. Life goes on. I still think he's a great player.

Nope, never said it was a normal shooting motion (it's not, its a flailing attempt to draw a foul). I've said all along it was flailing to get a call. Never changed that at all, stuck to it every time. Also always maintained it was not intentional (because it logically follows if you are trying to draw a call any offensive foul would be unintentional). And never said it was an "ok play." I said it was an offensive foul and I didn't like his flopping about. I did say Jaric didn't find it to be intentional (look, there I am being consistent all over again.) Then I mention that he apologized for those incidents, but didn't when he throttled Mike Miller as an example of unintentional vs. intentional. Again, I remain consistent in my points.

Each time I bring logic and support my argument that it is an unintentional result of flailing about trying to get a call, someone else brings absurd points like "I've seen it on the playground, smells like b.s. it's a cover blah blah blah."

I've made one point all along, and fine...you don't agree with it. Phil Jackson does, Marko Jaric does. Manu Ginobli does. But Kobe's flopping around, while an offensive foul, is not "intentional" and Stu Jackson is a freaking idiot. And apparantly Ric Bucher AND the official who made the call agree with me, if what he said on Sportscenter is true.

But don't come in here banging on me for changing my story around when I've said ONE thing and said it consistently, and anything else I've added is just to support that point. Your post is insulting and completely incorrect. And you say I'm fabricating?? Pot meet kettle, e.

 

[Chaplin]

Nope, never said it was a normal shooting motion (it's not, its a flailing attempt to draw a foul). I've said all along it was flailing to get a call. Never changed that at all, stuck to it every time. Also always maintained it was not intentional (because it logically follows if you are trying to draw a call any offensive foul would be unintentional). And never said it was an "ok play." I said it was an offensive foul and I didn't like his flopping about. I did say Jaric didn't find it to be intentional (look, there I am being consistent all over again.) Then I mention that he apologized for those incidents, but didn't when he throttled Mike Miller as an example of unintentional vs. intentional. Again, I remain consistent in my points.

Each time I bring logic and support my argument that it is an unintentional result of flailing about trying to get a call, someone else brings absurd points like "I've seen it on the playground, smells like b.s. it's a cover blah blah blah."

I've made one point all along, and fine...you don't agree with it. Phil Jackson does, Marko Jaric does. Manu Ginobli does. But Kobe's flopping around, while an offensive foul, is not "intentional" and Stu Jackson is a freaking idiot. And apparantly Ric Bucher AND the official who made the call agree with me, if what he said on Sportscenter is true.

But don't come in here banging on me for changing my story around when I've said ONE thing and said it consistently, and anything else I've added is just to support that point. Your post is insulting and completely incorrect. And you say I'm fabricating?? Pot meet kettle, e.

Yeah, but... but... you're a... Laker fan!


If a guy throws his arms out to draw a foul, fine, but it is irresponsible if doing it harms another person. It was an offensive foul, but you have got to draw the line at that kind of behavior. We've talked till we're blue in the face about Manu's intentions when he flops. It would be pretty hard to convince anyone that what Manu does is intentional. That's not the argument. The argument is about trying to stop players from doing these overinflated acting jobs in order to draw a foul, because, frankly, what that does is cause injuries. Period.

Kobe's flailing around caused the injury--you agree on that. But how do you prevent the injury? It certainly wasn't Jaric's fault. It's called a reckless disregard for safety, and it's something the league is trying to eliminate. How to do that? Start suspending people. It doesn't mean it was "intentional", it's just trying to stop an act (or series of acts) that can lead to much more serious injuries and problems within the league, that while it seems it is making money, it definitely has a serious image problem.

 

[SO91]

Yeah, but... but... you're a... Laker fan!


If a guy throws his arms out to draw a foul, fine, but it is irresponsible if doing it harms another person. It was an offensive foul, but you have got to draw the line at that kind of behavior. We've talked till we're blue in the face about Manu's intentions when he flops. It would be pretty hard to convince anyone that what Manu does is intentional. That's not the argument. The argument is about trying to stop players from doing these overinflated acting jobs in order to draw a foul, because, frankly, what that does is cause injuries. Period.

Kobe's flailing around caused the injury--you agree on that. But how do you prevent the injury? It certainly wasn't Jaric's fault. It's called a reckless disregard for safety, and it's something the league is trying to eliminate. How to do that? Start suspending people. It doesn't mean it was "intentional", it's just trying to stop an act (or series of acts) that can lead to much more serious injuries and problems within the league, that while it seems it is making money, it definitely has a serious image problem.

Agree 100%

 

[elindholm]

I did say Jaric didn't find it to be intentional

You said that, but you made it up. Jaric said he didn't think it was intentional. Surely you recognize the difference.

Then I mention that he apologized for those incidents, but didn't when he throttled Mike Miller as an example of unintentional vs. intentional.

Which, again, is made up. So what if Bryant apologized some times and not other times? That doesn't mean anything. You're drawing a correlation because it helps your argument, not because it's supported by the evidence.

In case you need an example, take terrorism attacks. Sometimes a known terrorist organization will claim credit for an attack after it has happened, and sometimes no one does. Experts often say that usually the group that claims credit is not the one responsible. Wait -- you mean sometimes people say they did something, when really they didn't, and the other way around too?

I think we'd agree that Bryant can be awfully manipulative, and he's also pretty smart. Don't you think it's at least within the realm of possibility that he's putting on a bit of a con? He wouldn't be the first star player to do so, of course.

Each time I bring logic and support my argument that it is an unintentional result of flailing about trying to get a call

Let me know when you bring in any "logic." Just dressing up your assumptions in further layers of speculation is not "logic."

someone else brings absurd points like "I've seen it on the playground, smells like b.s. it's a cover blah blah blah."

That's right. The translation is, "If you believe everything that guys playing sports want you to believe, you're pretty naive."

Phil Jackson does, Marko Jaric does. Manu Ginobli does.

Phil Jackson does? That's a laugh. Of course he's going to support his star player, especially now that they're intertwined in this huge awkward post-O'Neal makeup lovefest. Maybe Jackson thinks it's an accident and maybe he doesn't, but what he says doesn't mean jack squat, and you know it.

As far as Jaric and Ginobili go, it's the code of honor again. I don't know why you deny that such a thing exists. Even a weekend warrior knows that you don't point fingers when someone hurts you during game play.

But Kobe's flopping around, while an offensive foul, is not "intentional" and Stu Jackson is a freaking idiot.

So people who say they agree with you are enlightened, and those who don't are freaking idiots. Sounds like an air-tight argument to me.

Your post is insulting and completely incorrect. And you say I'm fabricating??

I'll admit I exaggerated. But the essence of my point is correct. No one can know for sure what Bryant's intentions were, and taking corrupt testimonials from obviously biased parties doesn't tell us anything. You don't get to the facts by pointing out things like "He apologized this time" or "His fawning coach claims to believe his story." Give me a freaking break.

News flash: What people say can be deceptive. Learn to listen through the noise.

 

[cly2tw]

Malone's elbows, Manu's high kick (to Amare's nuts) going to the basket, Kobe's flailing, they are all "unintentional" as they never viciously wished to hurt the other players who are defending them. I'm sure about that!

However, they did want to send out the message that the potential collateral damages were the defenders' own responsibility dare they come close enough. And collateral damages do occur, quite often as witnessed in David Robinson's missing a full season, LB's stiches from Kobe and knee injury from Manu's wild flopping, etc. In slang, it's called "intimidating the defenders". Malone's elbows are always that high and sharp, everybody should know and respect that, right?

 

[D-Dogg]

Yeah, but... but... you're a... Laker fan!


If a guy throws his arms out to draw a foul, fine, but it is irresponsible if doing it harms another person. It was an offensive foul, but you have got to draw the line at that kind of behavior. We've talked till we're blue in the face about Manu's intentions when he flops. It would be pretty hard to convince anyone that what Manu does is intentional. That's not the argument. The argument is about trying to stop players from doing these overinflated acting jobs in order to draw a foul, because, frankly, what that does is cause injuries. Period.

Kobe's flailing around caused the injury--you agree on that. But how do you prevent the injury? It certainly wasn't Jaric's fault. It's called a reckless disregard for safety, and it's something the league is trying to eliminate. How to do that? Start suspending people. It doesn't mean it was "intentional", it's just trying to stop an act (or series of acts) that can lead to much more serious injuries and problems within the league, that while it seems it is making money, it definitely has a serious image problem.

I can agree with all that. But if you are going to suspend Kobe for injuring someone while flopping, it better damn well happen every time Manu does it too.

When things like LeBron clotheslining Wade and getting no suspension for it take place, it's a little ridiculous on the league's part to suspend Kobe for this. The league is terribly inconsistent with its "rulings" and somehow, just because it is Kobe it's ok to be inconsistent. Is it too much to ask that the league actually get its crap together?

 

[myrondizzo]

if a player constantly drives to the hoop while leading with a knee or leg extended and he kicks guys in the groin. then can he use the excuse that he does it all the time?

 

[TucsonDevil]

I think we can all agree on this....

Kobe just received the lightest suspension possible - ONE game. The first time he did this, he got a one game suspension. He repeats the act - IN THE SAME SEASON, less than two months later - and he gets the same punishment. THAT, my friends, is a JOKE!

I just hope Kobe can muster his squad to beat Dallas on Sunday, otherwise, I am really going to be upset.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

I can agree with all that. But if you are going to suspend Kobe for injuring someone while flopping, it better damn well happen every time Manu does it too.

When things like LeBron clotheslining Wade and getting no suspension for it take place, it's a little ridiculous on the league's part to suspend Kobe for this. The league is terribly inconsistent with its "rulings" and somehow, just because it is Kobe it's ok to be inconsistent. Is it too much to ask that the league actually get its crap together?

Absolutely agree. The lack of consistency with these type of rulings is what gets me.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

I think we can all agree on this....

Kobe just received the lightest suspension possible - ONE game. The first time he did this, he got a one game suspension. He repeats the act - IN THE SAME SEASON, less than two months later - and he gets the same punishment. THAT, my friends, is a JOKE!

I just hope Kobe can muster his squad to beat Dallas on Sunday, otherwise, I am really going to be upset.

I disagree. I do not feel that he should have been suspended at all.

 

[D-Dogg]

News flash: What people say can be deceptive. Learn to listen through the noise.

And people can also be telling the truth. Sometimes the noise is just noise.

We'll definitely have to agree to disagree on this one, but I appreciate you responding that you were exaggerating on that one point. I prefer discussing this type of stuff with people like you all on this board who aren't likely to agree with me on the issue, rather than the head-nodding and conspiracy minded idiotards on places like Lakersground...but I do try to be consistent.

 

[D-Dogg]

if a player constantly drives to the hoop while leading with a knee or leg extended and he kicks guys in the groin. then can he use the excuse that he does it all the time?

Aren't there players that consistently lead to the basket with a knee out? I seem to recall a few (wasn't Malone one of them?).

At any rate, if the defender is set underneath him, it's an offensive foul. If not set, it's a blocking foul. Pretty standard stuff, isn't it? Unless he aims for and connects with the groin I'd say it wouldn't be an issue.

 

[TucsonDevil]

I disagree. I do not feel that he should have been suspended at all.

Huh? Take out the bias and emotion... He is repeating an act he committed two months ago... that act cost him one game. At the very least, a repeat of that act receives the same punishment. However, logic would tell you that the punishment would escalate due to 'second' offense, lack of time between repeated offense, etc.

 

[D-Dogg]

Huh? Take out the bias and emotion... He is repeating an act he committed two months ago... that act cost him one game. At the very least, a repeat of that act receives the same punishment. However, logic would tell you that the punishment would escalate due to 'second' offense, lack of time between repeated offense, etc.

DCR doesn't have bias or emotion in the Lakers/Kobe's favor...he's a Suns fan.

However, IIRC he didn't think the first one should have been a suspension, so it follows he doesn't think this one should either.

 

[abomb]

John Stockton was a 1000 times dirtier than Kobe is and never got an ounce of grief over it. Why? Because the refs let him do it.

People are letting their dislike of Kobe/Lakers cloud their judgement here.

Damn Chris, your neutral analysis is great!

 

[myrondizzo]

Aren't there players that consistently lead to the basket with a knee out? I seem to recall a few (wasn't Malone one of them?).

At any rate, if the defender is set underneath him, it's an offensive foul. If not set, it's a blocking foul. Pretty standard stuff, isn't it? Unless he aims for and connects with the groin I'd say it wouldn't be an issue.

what i'm saying that if the league started to see a pattern of people being hurt by it and wanted to prevent injuries by deterring that action the claim that they "do it all the time" really wouldn't matter.

 

[D-Dogg]

what i'm saying that if the league started to see a pattern of people being hurt by it and wanted to prevent injuries by deterring that action the claim that they "do it all the time" really wouldn't matter.

Sure it wouldn't, but then they'd have to legislate against anyone and everyone who did it.

In this case, it's flopping and flailing around trying to dramatize a foul (or perceived foul) to get a call. I'd be fine with the league curtailing that as it's really out of control. But do it across the board.

 

[elindholm]

And people can also be telling the truth. Sometimes the noise is just noise.

Sure. But if you're trying to prove something, being able to say "this might be true" doesn't do you much good.

I haven't made up my mind whether Bryant should have been suspended. I agree that other players do equally bad or worse things all the time. No rational person would put Bryant high on the list of the league's dirtiest players.

I object only to attempting to defend the act by declaring it "unintentional," then grasping at every available straw to "prove" that it was. That's just shoddy debate. We don't have the evidence to say for sure that it was intentional, but we sure as heck don't have the evidence to say that it wasn't.

 

[myrondizzo]

Sure it wouldn't, but then they'd have to legislate against anyone and everyone who did it.

In this case, it's flopping and flailing around trying to dramatize a foul (or perceived foul) to get a call. I'd be fine with the league curtailing that as it's really out of control. But do it across the board.

if he was trying to exaggerate contact his arm would of gone the other direction not straight down on his head. the defender was coming from kobe's right. that should have pushed his arm to his left.

 

[fordronken]

I think that in the heat of the game, a player like Kobe is making moves to get space, and to build an in-game relationship with the players that guard him. He's not trying to hurt them, per se. But these are the mini battles within the game. His goal is to win. If he can get away with some contact off of his shot that makes the person that's guarding him not want to get so close, then he helped his cause. That's the point. It's not personal. Kobe has an incredibly intense desire to win and he does everything he can in games to get an advantage. The same way players can try to step on the feet of the player they're boxing out to remove their lift, players try to get away with anything they can which will give them an advantage.

 

[D-Dogg]

I object only to attempting to defend the act by declaring it "unintentional," then grasping at every available straw to "prove" that it was. That's just shoddy debate. We don't have the evidence to say for sure that it was intentional, but we sure as heck don't have the evidence to say that it wasn't.

Yet a ton of people seem to think it was intentional. I'm just putting out a differing opinion and backing it up with examples. Poke holes in those examples all you want, that's fine. On what I've seen in him doing the same stupid flail for years, and the reactions of him, the other players and his coach (sure, all interested parties) I'm confident in my take that it is an unintentional act that deserves an offensive foul call and that is all. Good enough for me, and yes I am biased, but I try to see through my bias.

 

[D-Dogg]

if he was trying to exaggerate contact his arm would of gone the other direction not straight down on his head. the defender was coming from kobe's right. that should have pushed his arm to his left.

You are correct, which leans to him not being fouled at all and just trying to playact his way into a shooting foul and get to the line. It's not about whether he was actually hit, but that he is being highly dramatic to get the ref's attention.

The double arm backwards windmill action is a Kobe special, regardless of what Steeldog says (Phil Jackson's quote even mentions this, saying he should put together a tape of 50 or so times Kobe has done it). That's exactly what he did there. And I've seen it work in the past, too. And I hate that he does it.

 

[Southpaw]

Lost in the discussion was the Mike Miller incident last season.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=2275494

I can't imaginr how Kobe would have reacted if he had to play against Paul Silas, Dave Cowens, Bill Laimbeer and Rick Mahorn.

Kobe seems to use the , "refs didn't make the call on the floor, so why is the league". Well, long ago the NBA Marketing gurus decided you don't T up or eject the Super Star palyers. Mendy Rudolph did this against Clyde Drexler and never reffed an NBA game afterwards.