Kolb or Skelton

Kolb or Skelton


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Cbus cardsfan

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Warner never had an issue with toughness or lack of poise.

Plus you are talking about Denny Green's "real stinker" offense.

The comparison is moot.
Warner did have many issues though:
"The more methodical system Warner’s been asked to run since taking over as starter has exposed the weaknesses that led other teams to give up on him—namely his lack of mobility, fumbling problems, proclivity for interceptions, and knack for getting injured".

"More importantly, the Cardinals are 0-3 with Warner as the starter in 2007—and 3-15 overall with him under center since 2005".

He did have issues but over time became a great QB again. All I'm saying is it's pretty senseless to write of Kolb after 8 games.
 

Russ Smith

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Warner did have many issues though:
"The more methodical system Warner’s been asked to run since taking over as starter has exposed the weaknesses that led other teams to give up on him—namely his lack of mobility, fumbling problems, proclivity for interceptions, and knack for getting injured".

"More importantly, the Cardinals are 0-3 with Warner as the starter in 2007—and 3-15 overall with him under center since 2005".

He did have issues but over time became a great QB again. All I'm saying is it's pretty senseless to write of Kolb after 8 games.

The main thing is Warner replaced Leinart who wasn't running the same offense under Whiz that Warner did. If you watched A Football Life on Warner they made that abundantly clear. Whiz outright said you could see in practice that Kurt was "getting it back, he was Kurt Warner again" and that's why he was looking for ways to take advantage of it. First by using him running the no huddle replacing Matt, then ultimately as the starter. he said it was apparent he was really good the question was for how long, and the only way to find out was to make the transition to playing him more and see.

Once he decided Kurt wasn't going to start looking punchdrunk again, he decided lets ride the hot hand and the offense really changed. We ran more no huddle more 4 Wr's etc everything geared to what Kurt did well.

Matt's last "real" start in 07 he threw for nearly 300 yards 37 attempts, but he left a lot of plays out there. matt started the next 3 games but he was only the part time QB Kurt had moved in and was running the no huddle and had as many or more pass attempts in all 3 games. It was clear that Whiz was transitioning the team from Matt to Kurt, he just wanted to make sure that Kurt could physically hold up and so he played both for 3 games and might have continued to if Matt hadn't got hurt in that 3rd game ending his season.

Since Kurt retired, Whiz has attempted to run the same system(with less no huddle for sure) with Anderson, Hall, Skelton, Kolb, and again Skelton. We're still trying to be that empty backfield 4WR offense that worked so well with Warner under center.

that's why Palmer would have been a better fit if he'd have been available, he'd started 97 games in the NFL, he was far more experienced and would have been able to adapt to Whiz' system much quicker. I don't know if he would have excelled or not he's a guy you have to give time to throw, but he has always been very good downfield and wouldn't be having the issues with reading defenses that Kolb and Skelton have had.

but the Bengals weren't trading him at the time unfortunately and Kolb was the next best guy available in the long term. Hasselbeck is clearly better but much older. The Cards for whatever reason didn't want to draft a QB so Kolb was the obvious choice.
 

Cbus cardsfan

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Palmer was my 1st choice too. IIRC, there was alot of talk about Wells and a 2nd for him. I think that would have been a steep price but the Bengals held ground and got two #1's(potentially).
 

conraddobler

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The main thing is Warner replaced Leinart who wasn't running the same offense under Whiz that Warner did. If you watched A Football Life on Warner they made that abundantly clear. Whiz outright said you could see in practice that Kurt was "getting it back, he was Kurt Warner again" and that's why he was looking for ways to take advantage of it. First by using him running the no huddle replacing Matt, then ultimately as the starter. he said it was apparent he was really good the question was for how long, and the only way to find out was to make the transition to playing him more and see.

Once he decided Kurt wasn't going to start looking punchdrunk again, he decided lets ride the hot hand and the offense really changed. We ran more no huddle more 4 Wr's etc everything geared to what Kurt did well.

Matt's last "real" start in 07 he threw for nearly 300 yards 37 attempts, but he left a lot of plays out there. matt started the next 3 games but he was only the part time QB Kurt had moved in and was running the no huddle and had as many or more pass attempts in all 3 games. It was clear that Whiz was transitioning the team from Matt to Kurt, he just wanted to make sure that Kurt could physically hold up and so he played both for 3 games and might have continued to if Matt hadn't got hurt in that 3rd game ending his season.

Since Kurt retired, Whiz has attempted to run the same system(with less no huddle for sure) with Anderson, Hall, Skelton, Kolb, and again Skelton. We're still trying to be that empty backfield 4WR offense that worked so well with Warner under center.

that's why Palmer would have been a better fit if he'd have been available, he'd started 97 games in the NFL, he was far more experienced and would have been able to adapt to Whiz' system much quicker. I don't know if he would have excelled or not he's a guy you have to give time to throw, but he has always been very good downfield and wouldn't be having the issues with reading defenses that Kolb and Skelton have had.

but the Bengals weren't trading him at the time unfortunately and Kolb was the next best guy available in the long term. Hasselbeck is clearly better but much older. The Cards for whatever reason didn't want to draft a QB so Kolb was the obvious choice.

I think knowing the situation like I do that what's going on is something similar to what a gambler might go through.

It's akin to an addiction, he liked what Warner did so much he's dying to replicate it again.

The problem is that's almost impossible to do without Warner.

It could be done but he's going to need a guy like Warner or in that mold, that guy is Chase Daniel, I keep harping on this but he's trained in a spread offense which is the closest to what we were doing with Warner and he's a gunslinger type that Warner was. The problem even with that is it takes a year or two to develop the type of cohesion that would make that work well, we simply don't have time for that idea or any other idea in terms of saving Whis's job.

The single most important factor in that offense is reading the defense quickly and knowing where to go with the ball in all situations, Kolb was asked to change offenses with no offseason.

I wouldn't of picked Kolb myself to be our guy but he's had no time to transition.

Whis is flailing now, his only chance to keep his job is Skelton IMO.

He's not going to have time to get Kolb operating anywhere near where he needs him to before he's fired.

What we should do IMO is go to a more traditional pro style offense with Skelton running it, simply take the playbook pick out the more suitable plays for Skelton and then start desiging new plays a few at a time to play to what he does well that's if he wants to keep his job but it's a bad situation as a coach to be in, I'd call it Karma myself.

We are not going to get anywhere trying to fit a round peg into a square hole, we have no one on the roster who can run the offense Warner did, we're not going to get one soon, so we have to change the offense it's the only viable option IMO.
 
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Russ Smith

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What we should do IMO is go to a more traditional pro style offense with Skelton running it, simply take the playbook pick out the more suitable plays for Skelton and then start desiging new plays a few at a time to play to what he does well that's if he wants to keep his job but it's a bad situation as a coach to be in, I'd call it Karma myself.

We are not going to get anywhere trying to fit a round peg into a square hole, we have no one on the roster who can run the offense Warner did, we're not going to get one soon, so we have to change the offense it's the only viable option IMO.

I agree the offense should be changed but I actually think if Whiz wants to save his job changing the offense and getting it to work with Kolb is the way to do that. When you trade picks and a player and pay a big contract there's pressure on the coach to make that player "work".

So change the offense and get Kolb to look like a viable NFL QB and maybe he saves his job.

I'm not expecting that to happen he's not going to radically change the offense midseason, and with Kolb hurt, any changes would be tailored to Skelton and then Kolb would have to slide in when healthy.

I think if the Cards are going to make a firing decision based on this year, Whiz is on pretty thin ice.
 

Phrazbit

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Warner did have many issues though:
"The more methodical system Warner’s been asked to run since taking over as starter has exposed the weaknesses that led other teams to give up on him—namely his lack of mobility, fumbling problems, proclivity for interceptions, and knack for getting injured".

"More importantly, the Cardinals are 0-3 with Warner as the starter in 2007—and 3-15 overall with him under center since 2005".

He did have issues but over time became a great QB again. All I'm saying is it's pretty senseless to write of Kolb after 8 games.


Except that Warner had previously been an NFL MVP... There is no reason to suspect that Kolb is anything but what we are seeing every week.
 

WildBB

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We are not going to get anywhere trying to fit a round peg into a square hole, we have no one on the roster who can run the offense Warner did, we're not going to get one soon, so we have to change the offense it's the only viable option IMO.

That's the thing Whiz has been pretty unflexable in changing much. It could prove his undoing. "The system works".

Well maybe, but not right now it doesn't.
 

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8u6YYVWZIzs&feature=related

This video of Kolb vs the Titans last year looks strikingly similar to many of his performances this season. He generally looks fine when he has 5+ seconds to throw, but the trademark panic in the pocket appears way too often. His footwork also looks putrid most of the time, which weakens the argument about him simply needing more time to adjust to a new system. Granted, this wasn't his best game, but the flaws in his fundamentals are still readily apparent. Not to mention his mental struggles in the second half. To me, Kolb seems like a QB who can excel when everything is going perfect around him. When facing adversity, however, he often breaks down physically and mentally. Unfortunately, those qualities fit the description of an above average #2 QB.

While Skelton's pocket presence and physical makeup are more along the lines of a starter, his inaccuracy and mental shortcomings give me doubts about his future. I have a hard time believing in a QB who couldn't even complete 60% of his passes at Fordham. My vote went to Kolb since he's proven that he can light it up in the right situation, but I still don't believe our QBOTF is on the roster.
 

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Why JS looks more poised in the pocket.

I think a big part of JS poise comes from the fact he is stable in the pocket the o-line knows where he is going to be. By that I mean when an o-lineman is beat wide he will give the DE a last second shove and try and push him wide. When JS see this he steps up in the pocket, so OTOH when the o-lineman is beat inside he will give that last second shove towards the middle of the line. When JS sees this he just stands tall deep.

JS is playing to in this case for lack of a better term "to our o-lines weaknessess". With KK the o-line has no idea which way he's going to go and sometimes I wonder if KK even does. He thinks he is Vick out there, and can make a play with his feet.
 

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John Clayton just reported that JS will start but that KK will be the backup. He seemed to insinuate that Whiz made JS the starter and is using the foot injury as an excuse. He said that JS has been taking first team snaps all week. Interesting, but I don't agree I think if Whiz benched him he would just say so.
 

27Veer

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John Clayton just reported that JS will start but that KK will be the backup. He seemed to insinuate that Whiz made JS the starter and is using the foot injury as an excuse. He said that JS has been taking first team snaps all week. Interesting, but I don't agree I think if Whiz benched him he would just say so.

This gives KK some semblence of pride, he's hurt but will come in if necessary. When John has a 300 yard game KK will be the backup until he is completely well.
 

Russ Smith

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John Clayton just reported that JS will start but that KK will be the backup. He seemed to insinuate that Whiz made JS the starter and is using the foot injury as an excuse. He said that JS has been taking first team snaps all week. Interesting, but I don't agree I think if Whiz benched him he would just say so.

Kind of odd because earlier today this is what Clayton posted on ESPN's site.
As you see absolutely no hint that he thinks Kolb has been benched and they're just saying it's the injury?

"Who's the winner in the Kolb trade? Though the price was high, the Cardinals believed they found their franchise quarterback when they acquired QB Kevin Kolb from the Eagles for a second-round pick and cornerback Dominique Rodgers-Cromartie. Though the two teams considered this a win-win move, it's been lose-lose for both franchises. Sunday's game in Philadelphia will be a chance for both teams to compare notes. Kolb was 1-6 during his first seven starts and was bailing out of the pocket too quickly. He is unlikely to play in Sunday's game against the Eagles because of a turf toe and a mid-foot sprain. DRC, meanwhile, hasn't felt comfortable in a lot of the zone defenses the Eagles have put him in. Though he hasn't given up a touchdown, he's had 13 passes completed on him for 191 yards and at times has looked lost."
 

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Kind of odd because earlier today this is what Clayton posted on ESPN's site.
As you see absolutely no hint that he thinks Kolb has been benched and they're just saying it's the injury?

"Who's the winner in the Kolb trade? Though the price was high, the Cardinals believed they found their franchise quarterback when they acquired QB Kevin Kolb from the Eagles for a second-round pick and cornerback Dominique Rodgers-Cromartie. Though the two teams considered this a win-win move, it's been lose-lose for both franchises. Sunday's game in Philadelphia will be a chance for both teams to compare notes. Kolb was 1-6 during his first seven starts and was bailing out of the pocket too quickly. He is unlikely to play in Sunday's game against the Eagles because of a turf toe and a mid-foot sprain. DRC, meanwhile, hasn't felt comfortable in a lot of the zone defenses the Eagles have put him in. Though he hasn't given up a touchdown, he's had 13 passes completed on him for 191 yards and at times has looked lost."

He was just on NFL live, and that is the way I took it. I could have been way off base as I was reading this site as I was watching. But I felt he insinuated that JS was starting all week and if KK is well enough to be the back up then why isnt he starting.
 

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who has the faster timed release in the pocket..?? Kolb or Skelton???

Who has the faster timed release in the pocket..?? Kolb or Skelton???

In our area we have timed Kolb at the last home game that he played vs. Shelton at last weeks game. Here are the results

KOLB: Release average was between 4.25 to 6 seconds.
SKLETON: Release average was between 1.5 to 3.8 seconds.

So you tell me who should start. The best QB's in the NFL are more in line with John Skelton, Not Kevin Kolb.

Skelton could be our real QB of the Future, if only WhizenSTUPID had a CLUE.

Remember it was Whiz who had real problems with Big Ben starting for Pitts. Steelers. Thank god the The chin was coaching the Steelers back then.
:)
BOBCAT
 

Phrazbit

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Who has the faster timed release in the pocket..?? Kolb or Skelton???

In our area we have timed Kolb at the last home game that he played vs. Shelton at last weeks game. Here are the results

KOLB: Release average was between 4.25 to 6 seconds.
SKLETON: Release average was between 1.5 to 3.8 seconds.

So you tell me who should start. The best QB's in the NFL are more in line with John Skelton, Not Kevin Kolb.

Skelton could be our real QB of the Future, if only WhizenSTUPID had a CLUE.

Remember it was Whiz who had real problems with Big Ben starting for Pitts. Steelers. Thank god the The chin was coaching the Steelers back then.
:)
BOBCAT

Where did you get that release time info? I like it.
 

Russ Smith

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He was just on NFL live, and that is the way I took it. I could have been way off base as I was reading this site as I was watching. But I felt he insinuated that JS was starting all week and if KK is well enough to be the back up then why isnt he starting.

Yeah I wasn't saying you were wrong about what he said I didn't see it. I just thought it odd since he posted that other thing this morning.

But he could have new information who knows.
 

TRW

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Kolb, if healthy, needs to play every game the rest of this season. He has sucked and I don't think he has shown anything to make me feel like he will ever be even a middle of the pack QB.

But, Whis made his choice and he needs to play with the hand he dealt himself. At this point there is nothing to play for anyway so why not see what Kolb is all about for an entire season?

Next year, with a full camp and knowledge of the playbook there will be NO excuses at all.
 

WildBB

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Kolb, if healthy, needs to play every game the rest of this season. He has sucked and I don't think he has shown anything to make me feel like he will ever be even a middle of the pack QB.

But, Whis made his choice and he needs to play with the hand he dealt himself. At this point there is nothing to play for anyway so why not see what Kolb is all about for an entire season?

Next year, with a full camp and knowledge of the playbook there will be NO excuses at all.

The exact same argument can be used for Skelton. What have you got to lose, lets see what we've got. Unless he puts up a Kolb like performance vs. Minnesota, see what his comfort level and ceiling can be now.

Next yr. make it an open competition when KK has a full off season to digest stuff.
 

az1965

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Warner did have many issues though:
"The more methodical system Warner’s been asked to run since taking over as starter has exposed the weaknesses that led other teams to give up on him—namely his lack of mobility, fumbling problems, proclivity for interceptions, and knack for getting injured".

"More importantly, the Cardinals are 0-3 with Warner as the starter in 2007—and 3-15 overall with him under center since 2005".

He did have issues but over time became a great QB again. All I'm saying is it's pretty senseless to write of Kolb after 8 games.
What a joke comparing Kolb to Warner who had already won a superbowl and had been to pro-bowls... Kolb dosen't even have the QB fundamentals right. He is completely clueless.
 

TRW

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The exact same argument can be used for Skelton. What have you got to lose, lets see what we've got. Unless he puts up a Kolb like performance vs. Minnesota, see what his comfort level and ceiling can be now.

Next yr. make it an open competition when KK has a full off season to digest stuff.

Yep, I agree wholeheartedly with you there. But, I think the investment in Kolb is just too much to cast him aside now.
 

Cbus cardsfan

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Why JS looks more poised in the pocket.

I think a big part of JS poise comes from the fact he is stable in the pocket the o-line knows where he is going to be. By that I mean when an o-lineman is beat wide he will give the DE a last second shove and try and push him wide. When JS see this he steps up in the pocket, so OTOH when the o-lineman is beat inside he will give that last second shove towards the middle of the line. When JS sees this he just stands tall deep.

JS is playing to in this case for lack of a better term "to our o-lines weaknessess". With KK the o-line has no idea which way he's going to go and sometimes I wonder if KK even does. He thinks he is Vick out there, and can make a play with his feet.

This is exactly right and is what KK needs to learn. When you see that he had McNabb and Vick, two of the better scrambling QB's, around him in Philly, it's easy to see how he got into that habit of scrambling out of the pocket.
 

Cbus cardsfan

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What a joke comparing Kolb to Warner who had already won a superbowl and had been to pro-bowls... Kolb dosen't even have the QB fundamentals right. He is completely clueless.
yep, Warner, with all those Super Bowl's, was in hot demand when he went to the Cards :doi:. I guess we shouldn't compare any RB's on the Cards roster since Emmit Smith to his days as a Cards because he went to SB's with Dallas.
 

AzStevenCal

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Kolb

I really think he will come good. He should get fined £100k every time he runs out of the pocket though.

He'd soon be in the pay-to-play category. Anyway, it looks like it will be awhile before he's healthy enough to start. Whiz said the only way he plays this weekend is as the backup.

Steve
 
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