Kolb/Skelton splitting snaps

[az1965]

Kolb was traded because Mike Vick played at an MVP level when he took over in 2010 and Kolb was not about to re-sign knowing he wouldn't be given the reins back. It was either let Kolb stay and get nothing in return or trade him and get value. The Eagles chose the latter. It has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not the team felt he was a franchise QB or not.

And seeing as the previous season he was given a $10mil year extension and traded their franchise QB of 11 years elsewhere, the team felt very highly of Kolb.

If Vick doesn't go Vick Experience v. 2.0 in 2010, Kolb is still an Eagle today.

True... Mike Vick did perfom lights out in 2010 and had a rating of 100 with completion % of 62, TD 21, int 6. But he did come down to earth with a rating of 84.9, 59.8%, 18 TD, 14 int. But that further validates my point. Vick got the opportunity and shined and took away the job. Kolb got the opportunity four times while an Eagle and looked nothing but mediocre and injury prone. Hence an easy decision for Eagles.

 

[az1965]

You must be Phrazbit's cousin, because nowhere did I say "Kolb" in that post.

But I'll play along.

When Kolb sets his feet and stays in the pocket, he is a 64% passer. When he moves out of the pocket, he is a 54% (as of the Ravens game last season).

In simple terms, 57.7% is still greater than 54.9%.

You didn't have to since the discussion is obviously Kolb vs. Skelton. Isn't that what this thread is about?

Yes, 57.7% is greater than 54.9%... Sure, that makes Skelton accuracy awful and Kolb with great upside. I get that.

 

[TJ]

True... Mike Vick did perfom lights out in 2010 and had a rating of 100 with completion % of 62, TD 21, int 6. But he did come down to earth with a rating of 84.9, 59.8%, 18 TD, 14 int. But that further validates my point. Vick got the opportunity and shined and took away the job. Kolb got the opportunity four times while an Eagle and looked nothing but mediocre and injury prone. Hence an easy decision for Eagles.

Four times? Where did you get that number?

At any rate, your point is not validated in any way. Vick comes in for Kolb in 2010 and outplays every QB in the league while Kolb recovers. Doesn't matter if he came down to earth towards the end of the year, he still put up MVP caliber numbers for the season.

As a coach, how do you bench that kind of productivity and subsequently explain yourself to Philly fan?

 

[TJ]

You didn't have to since the discussion is obviously Kolb vs. Skelton. Isn't that what this thread is about?

That's what the thread was about, but I was challenging one statement and one statement alone, and that was regarding Skelton's contribution to the 7-2 turnaround.

 

[az1965]

That's what the thread was about, but I was challenging one statement and one statement alone, and that was regarding Skelton's contribution to the 7-2 turnaround.

Which implies comparison with Kolb by you defending Kolb in the previous post.

 

[TJ]

Which implies comparison with Kolb by you defending Kolb in the previous post.

Implying does not mean inference.

You are trying to bridge two different topics to one. One topic (the discussion you and I are having) has to do with Kolb v. Skelton. The other (my response to Duck) with the 7-2 turnaround.

I entertained the argument that Skelton was largely responsible for the seven wins, but in the end, when you look at the numbers and the tape, it's hard not to come out realizing that the primary reason we started winning was the sudden rise in defensive play.

 

[az1965]

Four times? Where did you get that number?

2008 he played in one game when McNabb was terrible and benched but Kolb did not do much as it was his first significant opportunity. He threw for 0 TD and 2 picks.

2009 he got two starts and was good in one game and ok in other.

2010 he got five starts and was ok.

2011 with Cardinals we all know he struggled.

 

[TJ]

2008 he played in one game when McNabb was terrible and benched but Kolb did not do much as it was his first significant opportunity. He threw for 0 TD and 2 picks.

2009 he got two starts and was good in one game and ok in other.

2010 he got five starts and was ok.

2011 with Cardinals we all know he struggled.

Bringing up 2008 and 2009 using that logic is nitpicking, IMHO.

2010 - he lost his job to a resurgent Michael Vick
2011 - he struggles and gets injured, but has not been benched.

Just out of curiosity, how much significance do you put in the fact that Kolb was a Cardinal for four weeks prior to playing in his first game in the regular season?

 

[schutd]

this thread hurts my soul.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

This constant BS drama is golden in our age LOL.

+1 billion.

Sometimes life can be boring, and that is a good thing.

And sometimes two QB's splitting snaps is just two QB's splitting snaps.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

If anything that took place that day can be credited with vastly improving team morale, it's the record-setting game-ending OT runback by a rookie

Sorry,

I just can't agree with that.To give zero credit to the guy that tied up that game is just being difficult for the sake of being difficult. So, you are saying the 84 yard drive in the 4th quarter didn't happen ? Even though it is documented in print, sound, and video ? I mean jeez lousie, 84 yard drives in the 4th quarter are why people put Joe Montanan ahead of Dan Marino. Yet, there is no merit to it in this case ? Sorry, not buying it.

With that logic. Kolb did NOTHING versus the Cowboys but lean on his defense, and allow LSH to win the game for him in OT.

A remark that out-landish is not doing anything for the debate since it is so far fetched.

If we are giving no credit to the QB's and everything to the defense then why in the beginning of the year, when the defense kept a game close, was the Cardinals not able to win ?

Why didn't they win in Seattle, Washington, Baltimore and Minnesota ? There was an opportunity in each game to win. Yet, it didn't happen ? What happened there ? Patrick Peterson didn't return a punt ? Nope, just ask Baltimore. The defense didn't do their job ? Nope. The scores where close. So why? Using the logic in the quoted statement above, WHY ?

Sorry, again. Just there are so many things that can be held against John Skelton, but taking away what he has done. With the proof that he did it, is not doing anything. Just sounds like hating for the sake of hating.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

I think he's trying to imply that the O-Line was the reason why the Cards won that game.

He is trying to imply that every single player on the field EXCEPT John Skelton did something to win that game.

So as long as John Skelton is given zero credit for anything that went on during that game, then the comment is fine.

At some point I expect to read that the water boy had more to do with the win then Skelton did.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

I'm saying leading a scoring drive on offense and a stop on defense is expected

Really?

Wow.

I guess the huge hoopla in the news, by the fans excitement in the stands, by the player who get in the Hall of Fame for such drives, the stories immortalized in the history of the game, and the massive amount of money given to QB's that can come through in the clutch and lead scoring drives to win the game are just not that big of a deal.

This is just getting silly.

And again, if leading scoring drives is expected, then why can't Kolb seem to do such a simple thing, that is expected to happen like the sun rising in the morning. You are pretty much saying Kolb can't do the very basic thing you state above. So, if Skelton is doing what is expect of every QB, then where does that leave Kolb ?

 

[RugbyMuffin]

And has been a starter the equivalent of approximately one full season.

So he has started 1 season in 5 years.

There is a ringing endorsement if I ever heard of one.

 

[cardpa]

I believe both guys have yet to prove that they are worthy of being the starter on this team. Each one has his positives and negatives. I think the idea of having them battle it out in camp and the pre-season is the best way to determine who should be under center at the beginning of the season.

All I want to see is that each guy gets the same treatment in the pre-season as far as playing time goes and playing with the first team on offense. I also believe each one should have very similar plays called for them so each one is in similar situations.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

that was regarding Skelton's contribution to the 7-2 turnaround.

Sincerly, Good stuff TJ, you are making some good points.


But, I am going to use this quote for my debate.


It seems we all spend a lot of time talking about Skelton's contribution to the 7-2 record the Cardinals had at the end of the season. Why don't we talk about the contribution Kolb had to the 1-6 start. I mean, every minute of Skelton's games have been broken down, and where credit can be taken away from the guy, it has.

What about "fine tooth coaming" the first part of the season. As I stated in the post above, there where games where their were opportunities to win, and we didn't. What about those ?

 

[RugbyMuffin]

I don't think Skelton is "stupid," but he left much to be desired as a professional quarterback. I like his demeanor, toughness, and arm, but he does have the penchant for locking onto one receiver, and even though he has "superior pocket presence" that gets embellished, he still has trouble with accuracy. And accuracy is one of, if not, the most difficult skill to teach a quarterback in the NFL. Either you have it or you don't. Same reason why I don't think Ryan Lindley was worth a 6th round pick, even if it is a late-round selection.

Skelton should get credit for the game winning drives he executed, but more often than not, he put the defense in peculiar spots with some of his ill-timed interceptions during the course of a game.

+1.

He may be the QB I am rooting for, but those are concrete valid points, IMO.

His accuracy, and decision making in the beginning of games (meaning 3/4 of the game) is dreadful.

 

[52brandon]

WTH? Where did you get that?

??? Is that not what this means?

First of all I'm not talking about the fans. We don't play on Sunday. Whether we have momentum or not is irrelevant.

I very plainly stated that I was not talking about the fans reaction but only the players. I don't know what in the world you were thinking when you wrote that.

Here I'll be like you: Obviously you hate Skelton and wish he weren't on the team. But to belittle an 84 yard game tying drive, a stop of Steven Jackson with a yard to go for a first down not once but twice, and a blocked FG, all in the 4th quarter, and all by Arizona Cardinal players, just because Kolb is your boy is really going overboard.

Actually. I don't hate Skelton, have no problem with him being on the team, I just don't think he's our best QB. I could "be like you" I guess and call you a hater, say you give Skelton credit for more than he deserves because he's your boy, but I don't see the point

 

[RugbyMuffin]

this thread hurts my soul.

Why?

Good thread, IMO.

The cool thing is that most, if not all, agree that this competition is a good thing.

As for the debate ? LOL. This is only the beginning. There will be more pages of debates about these two QB's then passes thrown by both in the preseason.

Gotta luv it.

 

[kerouac9]

Here's my take... I was very much in the "we have to give Kolb every chance" camp last year, but have embraced the "let them battle it out and best man wins" philosophy that the team is going with going into this year. But here's something I just haven't been able to shake -- even though he hasn't had an extraordinary number of opportunities, I don't recall Skelton ever having a game where he put together 4 solid quarters of football and had a complete, quality performance. I went back through the game logs on ESPN, tried to remember the games, and just couldn't come up with an example I remembered of Skelton had a complete performance.

So, here's the question I'm left wondering: Is Skelton capable of putting up a game like this against a quality opponent?

23/29 (79.1%), 326 yards, 3 TDs, 1 INT, 133.6 QB Rating

That's the game Kolb had against a very good Falcons team in 2010.


At least to me, at their worst, both guys have shown to be very mediocre QBs; at their best, only one has shown capable of putting up an elite QB performance; and neither guy has shown the consistency yet to be a solid NFL QB. Figuring out that last part is really the key to the off season.

The 2010 Falcons were not a "quality opponent", unless you're talking about a defense's performance.

16th in yardage defense
22nd in passing defense
18th in sacks

 

[RugbyMuffin]

say you give Skelton credit for more than he deserves because he's your boy, but I don't see the point

Fair enough. He is my boy, but I at least try to keep it in the relm of reality.

Giving Skelton zero credit for any of the success this team had is not being realistic.

Saying 84 yard game winning drives in the 4th quarter of NFL football games doesn't mean much is going against everything this league is about in the modern day, as well.

So, I am not so out of line to question where the heck you are coming from with all this.

 

[Stout]

That's what the thread was about, but I was challenging one statement and one statement alone, and that was regarding Skelton's contribution to the 7-2 turnaround.

Yeah, that's cool. If you don't want Skelton to have any credit, or even more than a teaspoonful, then Kolb is garbage and has no upside. Simple. You cannot completely bag on Skelton and not completely bag on Kolb. If one is just plain garbage, then so is the other, because they've both shown warts. I haven't seen Kolb's upside yet, but he may have it.

I was responding to a post that completely and utterly dismissed Skelton, and looking at some of the things he did in going 7-2, no intelligent individual can say that he had nothing to do with winning those games--not with a straight face.

 

[Mainstreet]

Actually. I don't hate Skelton, have no problem with him being on the team, I just don't think he's our best QB. I could "be like you" I guess and call you a hater, say you give Skelton credit for more than he deserves because he's your boy, but I don't see the point

Maybe I missed it. Who is the best QB on the Cardinals team if it is not Skelton based upon performance in a Cardinals uniform?

Don't get me wrong, I would be extremely pleased if Kolb would perform well this coming season and the Cardinals would have two quality QBs in Skelton and Kolb. It would be a great position to be in. This would be the best case scenario.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

I was responding to a post that completely and utterly dismissed Skelton, and looking at some of the things he did in going 7-2, no intelligent individual can say that he had nothing to do with winning those games--not with a straight face.

+1.

Skelton has A LOT to work on. He has flaws, and a good number of them.

But when people state he has done nothing, then I do the same thing. I ask for the person whom is making the statement to turn that judgement on Kolb and get back to me on what he did that was so much better than Skelton. As you said if Skelton is horrible, and doing nothing to win football games, then where does that leave Kolb.

If it is the 4th quarter and the team has to score on a drive, who would you put in ?

 

[kerouac9]

+1.

Skelton has A LOT to work on. He has flaws, and a good number of them.

But when people state he has done nothing, then I do the same thing. I ask for the person whom is making the statement to turn that judgement on Kolb and get back to me on what he did that was so much better than Skelton. As you said if Skelton is horrible, and doing nothing to win football games, then where does that leave Kolb.

If it is the 4th quarter and the team has to score on a drive, who would you put in ?

It's a perception issue. When Kolb's playing, he looks like the current NFL prototype--lithe, a little mobile, solid mechanics in the dropback, and completes the underneath stuff that has become the bread and butter of the NFL these days.

People are comparing Skelton to Jake Plummer, but based on play alone, Kolb is the one who reminds me of Jake the Snake. Kolb is an incredibly streaky passer who can find a rhythm in the passing game and be effective for stretches, but there are long periods (I think that people forget how interminable these periods were) when Kolb can't do anything with the football. Full quarters where drives were 24 yards or shorter, and the offense walked off the field with nothing.

Kevin Kolb looks like guys around the NFL--Aaron Rodgers, Phil Rivers, Eli Manning, Jason Campbell, etc. What current players does Skelton compare to? His measurables are closest to Ben Roethlisberger, but he doesn't really play like Ben does--not really. The young quarterback who most reminds me of Roethlisberger is Cam Newton. Skelton reminds me of Carson Palmer before his knee injury, but Palmer was obviously a more finished quarterback coming out of Southern Cal than Skelton was. Right now he plays like a more mobile Derek Anderson.

I think that the ideal plan would be for Skelton to not be competing for a starting job until next year, when he's had enough reps in practice and gotten into the speed of the game a little more. The reprehensible inability of the coaching staff and front office to find medium turn solutions to the quarterback situation.

I've been of the belief that the 2013 starter for the Arizona Cardinals isn't currently on the roster. I also don't expect that the Cards will be very competitive in 2012 (mostly because of the harder schedule, although there are some personnel concerns as well). With those two as given, the question for me is whom I'd rather see play in 2012, because neither gives you a chance to "win" in any meaningful way.

My answer to that question is John Skelton. I'd much rather watch him play than Kevin Kolb, who is a more physically gifted Colt McCoy.