Kolb/Skelton splitting snaps

[gmabel830]

The 2010 Falcons were not a "quality opponent", unless you're talking about a defense's performance.

16th in yardage defense
22nd in passing defense
18th in sacks

Unless I am not understanding the beginning of your post (which is probably the case): "The 2010 Falcons were not a quality opponent" -- they were 13-3 in 2010, how is that not a quality opponent? In terms of their defensive rankings, I didn't dig that deep, and those numbers you presented do reflect an average defense, but you left out that they were 5th in defensive points allowed (averaged 18.0 points against, and the Eagles put up 31 on them).

I'm definitely not arguing that Kolb should be the starter because he has had like 2 or 3 good games in 5 years, but I guess deep down I still feel like Kolb has the better potential to be an elite QB because he has actually shown that he is able to put up elite numbers in a game -- although he has definitely not shown that he can do it consistently yet. And, even if you don't like my example, you never did answer my ultimate question: If John Skelton starts all 16 games next year, do you honestly think that he will put up numbers in any game that would match the numbers Kolb has put up in his best starts? I'm not saying this is the sole determinent for who our QB should be, just why I still have a hard time visualizing Skelton to be that guy.

If either QB shows more consistency throughout the offseason/preseason, that's who I think should be the guy.

 

[Duckjake]

Here's my take... I was very much in the "we have to give Kolb every chance" camp last year, but have embraced the "let them battle it out and best man wins" philosophy that the team is going with going into this year. But here's something I just haven't been able to shake -- even though he hasn't had an extraordinary number of opportunities, I don't recall Skelton ever having a game where he put together 4 solid quarters of football and had a complete, quality performance. I went back through the game logs on ESPN, tried to remember the games, and just couldn't come up with an example I remembered of Skelton had a complete performance.

So, here's the question I'm left wondering: Is Skelton capable of putting up a game like this against a quality opponent?

23/29 (79.1%), 326 yards, 3 TDs, 1 INT, 133.6 QB Rating

That's the game Kolb had against a very good Falcons team in 2010.


At least to me, at their worst, both guys have shown to be very mediocre QBs; at their best, only one has shown capable of putting up an elite QB performance; and neither guy has shown the consistency yet to be a solid NFL QB. Figuring out that last part is really the key to the off season.

Yes. We saw it in the second SF game when he came in for Kolb.

19-28-282 3TDs and 2INT 106.5 QB rating.

 

[gmabel830]

Yes. We saw it in the second SF game when he came in for Kolb.

19-28-282 3TDs and 2INT 106.5 QB rating.

I saw those numbers and they are definitely Skelton's best numbers, and it was a very solid performance against an elite defense. But, the numbers still lag pretty far behind Kolb's vs. ATL in completion %, yards, TD-INT ratio, and QB rating. Plus, I was at the game, and don't look back on it going "Man, Skelton just destroyed it that game!" I think that was a solid performance, but not an elite one.

 

[MadCardDisease]

Skelton hating at its finest. I don't understand how some people's noses can be buried in Kolb's jock after he has done absolutely nothing, yet they bag on Skelton every single time they comment on him, even though he's the one winning games--yes, and strongly contributing to doing so too.

So, I'll just use specious logic and bag on Kolb. The only reason he takes huge sacks is because he runs out of our perfect pass protection and into the defense.

I'm not hating or supporting anyone. All I'm saying is the prime reason we won those games the last half of the season was the Defense and Special teams play. To say that Skelton or Kolb is the reason we won games is being blind. Both QBs played average at best in the wins they had.

 

[bg7brd]

Unless I am not understanding the beginning of your post (which is probably the case): "The 2010 Falcons were not a quality opponent" -- they were 13-3 in 2010, how is that not a quality opponent? In terms of their defensive rankings, I didn't dig that deep, and those numbers you presented do reflect an average defense, but you left out that they were 5th in defensive points allowed (averaged 18.0 points against, and the Eagles put up 31 on them).

I'm definitely not arguing that Kolb should be the starter because he has had like 2 or 3 good games in 5 years, but I guess deep down I still feel like Kolb has the better potential to be an elite QB because he has actually shown that he is able to put up elite numbers in a game -- although he has definitely not shown that he can do it consistently yet. And, even if you don't like my example, you never did answer my ultimate question: If John Skelton starts all 16 games next year, do you honestly think that he will put up numbers in any game that would match the numbers Kolb has put up in his best starts? I'm not saying this is the sole determinent for who our QB should be, just why I still have a hard time visualizing Skelton to be that guy.

If either QB shows more consistency throughout the offseason/preseason, that's who I think should be the guy.

SKelton has the number one thing I look for in a Qb...he's a WINNER. Who cares what numbers he puts up if all he does is win.

 

[Duckjake]

I saw those numbers and they are definitely Skelton's best numbers, and it was a very solid performance against an elite defense. But, the numbers still lag pretty far behind Kolb's vs. ATL in completion %, yards, TD-INT ratio, and QB rating. Plus, I was at the game, and don't look back on it going "Man, Skelton just destroyed it that game!" I think that was a solid performance, but not an elite one.

I agree.

But you didn't ask if Skelton had put up similar numbers just if he were capable of doing so which I believe SF game shows. All he has to do is complete an additional 3 of 4 passes (contrary to popular belief Skelton has done that) and throw 1 less INT.

 

[gmabel830]

SKelton has the number one thing I look for in a Qb...he's a WINNER. Who cares what numbers he puts up if all he does is win.

This has been discussed a million times, and opinions obviously are not going to change -- there's a lot of people who put a ton of stock into the QBs W-L record, and there's a lot of people who think that it is over valued. I'm in the second group. I see the W-L record of a QB similar to the W-L record of a starting pitcher in MLB. You can have a pitcher who is 4-8 with a 3.50 ERA and one who is 8-4 with a 5.00 ERA. I don't think the second pitcher is better just because he won more.

 

[Duckjake]

I'm not hating or supporting anyone. All I'm saying is the prime reason we won those games the last half of the season was the Defense and Special teams play. To say that Skelton or Kolb is the reason we won games is being blind. Both QBs played average at best in the wins they had.

Again, I'll ask you in which games the Defense and Special Teams scored more points than our opponents?

The D held the opponents to keep the game in reach but it was the offense that put together the drives at crunch time to win. If Skelton, and Kolb vs Dallas, and the O don't score in the 4th quarter we win one game the last half of the season. We're 2-14!

The Cards with Skelton scored 67 points in the 4th quarter the last 9 games. The team had 74 but 7 of those came with Kolb at QB.

If they do that every quarter they average 33 points a game.

 

[kerouac9]

Unless I am not understanding the beginning of your post (which is probably the case): "The 2010 Falcons were not a quality opponent" -- they were 13-3 in 2010, how is that not a quality opponent? In terms of their defensive rankings, I didn't dig that deep, and those numbers you presented do reflect an average defense, but you left out that they were 5th in defensive points allowed (averaged 18.0 points against, and the Eagles put up 31 on them).

I'm definitely not arguing that Kolb should be the starter because he has had like 2 or 3 good games in 5 years, but I guess deep down I still feel like Kolb has the better potential to be an elite QB because he has actually shown that he is able to put up elite numbers in a game -- although he has definitely not shown that he can do it consistently yet. And, even if you don't like my example, you never did answer my ultimate question: If John Skelton starts all 16 games next year, do you honestly think that he will put up numbers in any game that would match the numbers Kolb has put up in his best starts? I'm not saying this is the sole determinent for who our QB should be, just why I still have a hard time visualizing Skelton to be that guy.

If either QB shows more consistency throughout the offseason/preseason, that's who I think should be the guy.

Lot of ways to be a "quality opponent". Skelton beat San Francisco outright, which was a better defense than Atlanta had.

Kolb was also maybe the least talented player on that Eagles team. We're not paying him $10 million per season to be the 9th best player on the offense. If he can't be one of the three best players on the unit, he has to go so that we can find someone better at a lower cost.

 

[JeffGollin]

Is it possible that Skelton's subpar 1Qs have something to do with play calling?

Were we more inclined to dial up running plays on 1st & 2nd downs early in games - and that those plays didn't work, thereby putting him in a hole on 3rd down?

(I'm not saying it's true - I'm just raising the possibility).

 

[ajcardfan]

Wait... I thought the whole problem with Kevin Kolb performing to his career averages was that he didn't have an offseason with the team.

I never said that. A lot of QBs were in the same spot as Kolb last year. Some got it done, some didn't.

 

[ajcardfan]

Is it possible that Skelton's subpar 1Qs have something to do with play calling?

Were we more inclined to dial up running plays on 1st & 2nd downs early in games - and that those plays didn't work, thereby putting him in a hole on 3rd down?

(I'm not saying it's true - I'm just raising the possibility).

No. If anything has been proven about Whis' offense he does very little run, run, pass. When we do run, run it is almost always a situation where the first run got 5+ yards.

I think he gets too amped and early in games his passes tend to sail on him because of it.

 

[ajcardfan]

Lot of ways to be a "quality opponent". Skelton beat San Francisco outright, which was a better defense than Atlanta had.

That game and the Seattle game are among Fitz's finest moments as a Card. Againsth Niners, he was directly responsible for all 3 TDs. Of course, his amazing, twisting leap of catch where he somehow kept his balance and ran it in. On Doucets TD, he unleashed a brutal block on Golden that allowed him to run it in. On Roberts TD, he set up it with a 53 yard gain and then the guy on Roberts cheated back figuring a lob to Fitz was coming which allowed Roberts to catch it on the two yard line and easily score.


Yes, Skelton made the throws, but I don't like one of the epic performances of our greatest player not even getting mentioned for that W. Needless to say, no Fitz, we get hammered that day IMO.

Another amazing thing about that game was we had 3 turnovers, and SF none, yet we still won. That just doesn't happen to the Cardinals.


You might guess I loved that game. My favorite of 2011 although the Seattle and Dallas games were also terrific.

 

[Stout]

I'm not hating or supporting anyone. All I'm saying is the prime reason we won those games the last half of the season was the Defense and Special teams play. To say that Skelton or Kolb is the reason we won games is being blind. Both QBs played average at best in the wins they had.

Baloney. They are some of the reasons, yet not the PRIME reasons. Without Skelton, we lose those games, period, as Duckjake pointed out. As good as our defense and special teams play was, you MUST admit that, without Skelton's contributions, we would not have won. It is a statistical fact. As much as you hate (yes, hate--there is no logical basis for refusing any kind of accolades to a player that's earned them) Skelton, you have to at least give him credit for his statistical accomplishments, which actually contributed to us winning games.

Now go on ahead and say that Kolb would have won those games anyway. I dare you to say that, based upon his play on the field.

 

[Duckjake]

Yes, Skelton made the throws, but I don't like one of the epic performances of our greatest player not even getting mentioned for that W. Needless to say, no Fitz, we get hammered that day IMO.

There were at least 4 Cardinal wins that were set up by great plays by Larry Fitzgerald. Without him we're probably talking about how the team is going to rebound from 23 losses the last two seasons. Heck without Fitz we probably don't even make it past the first round of the playoffs in 2008.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-leS7FpBGCA&feature=related

That's why it's so awesome that WE have a player on offense like that. Not exactly a common occurrence the previous 15 years in Arizona.

 

[52brandon]

Fair enough. He is my boy, but I at least try to keep it in the relm of reality.

Giving Skelton zero credit for any of the success this team had is not being realistic.

Saying 84 yard game winning drives in the 4th quarter of NFL football games doesn't mean much is going against everything this league is about in the modern day, as well.

So, I am not so out of line to question where the heck you are coming from with all this.

he also gave up 2 safeties, back to back, in that same game. And wasn't it an 84-yard game tying drive? Which led to a 99-yard game winning punt return? After a blocked FG at the end of regulation

Maybe I missed it. Who is the best QB on the Cardinals team if it is not Skelton based upon performance in a Cardinals uniform?

Don't get me wrong, I would be extremely pleased if Kolb would perform well this coming season and the Cardinals would have two quality QBs in Skelton and Kolb. It would be a great position to be in. This would be the best case scenario.

57.7%, +1 TD:INT, 7.7 yds/pass, 81.1 QB rating
54.9%, -3 TD:INT, 7.0 yds/pass, 68.9 QB rating

Not by much, but based upon performance, Kolb is the best QB on the Cardinals team based upon performance in a Cardinals uniform

 

[Phrazbit]

he also gave up 2 safeties, back to back, in that same game. And wasn't it an 84-yard game tying drive? Which led to a 99-yard game winning punt return? After a blocked FG at the end of regulation

57.7%, +1 TD:INT, 7.7 yds/pass, 81.1 QB rating
54.9%, -3 TD:INT, 7.0 yds/pass, 68.9 QB rating

Not by much, but based upon performance, Kolb is the best QB on the Cardinals team based upon performance in a Cardinals uniform

As long as you are looking at it through a narrow view of box scores that does not take fumbles, sacks or situation into account then yes, Kolb was better. If you take all that other stuff... that actually happened, and factor that in, then its highly debatable.

 

[Phrazbit]

There were at least 4 Cardinal wins that were set up by great plays by Larry Fitzgerald. Without him we're probably talking about how the team is going to rebound from 23 losses the last two seasons. Heck without Fitz we probably don't even make it past the first round of the playoffs in 2008.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-leS7FpBGCA&feature=related

That's why it's so awesome that WE have a player on offense like that. Not exactly a common occurrence the previous 15 years in Arizona.

Without Fitz do we even make the playoffs in 2008?

 

[Duckjake]

And wasn't it an 84-yard game tying drive? Which led to a 99-yard game winning punt return? After a blocked FG at the end of regulation

You forgot stopping Steven Jackson on 3rd and 1 at 1:54 and 4th and 1 with 1:48 left and the Rams at the Cardinals 33 yard line and the score tied 20-20.

4 things that combined changed the chemistry of the Cardinal Football Team.

 

[52brandon]

As long as you are looking at it through a narrow view of box scores that does not take fumbles, sacks or situation into account then yes, Kolb was better. If you take all that other stuff... that actually happened, and factor that in, then its highly debatable.

lol, of course it's debatable. That's why we've been debating it for 7 pages

do you know of anywhere that has more detailed stats. Like # of snaps played, and stuff like that?

 

[52brandon]

You forgot stopping Steven Jackson on 3rd and 1 at 1:54 and 4th and 1 with 1:48 left and the Rams at the Cardinals 33 yard line and the score tied 20-20.

4 things that combined changed the chemistry of the Cardinal Football Team.

you definitely don't need to tell me about the improvements our D made. I'm more impressed with their performance last year than I have ever been

 

[Zeno]

This quote from Whisenhunt pretty much tells me that Skelton is not going to have to beat out Kolb by a little but by a huge margin to be the starting QB...

"I'll be honest with you, I obviously know how much we invested in Kevin. I want Kevin to be successful. I want him to be our quarterback but I'm not going to ignore the fact that John Skelton worked pretty hard and did a good job in there when he was playing, too. He's earned the right to compete for that spot."

http://www.azcentral.com/members/Blog/KentSomers/163392

It's a competition but I don't know how fair it will be. Kolb will get a longer leash IMO.

Frankly I just want the best guy to win but it is really hard not to like John Skelton the person and wish him well, he just comes across as a class guy in interviews.

 

[Phrazbit]

lol, of course it's debatable. That's why we've been debating it for 7 pages

do you know of anywhere that has more detailed stats. Like # of snaps played, and stuff like that?

A non-pay site? Not off the top of my head. You might be able to dig around on NFL.com they actually have some pretty detailed splits. If you just want to add up their total passing plays obviously you can go with PA+sacks+carries and get it within a few plays.

I dont think much separates Skelton and Kolb. But because of his lack of success, injury history and looming cap figure it is extremely unlikely that Kolb will be a Cardinal in 2013. I'd rather get a better grasp on what Skelton can do now, than go through this entire debate with Skelton and (QB?) again next season.

 

[MadCardDisease]

Again, I'll ask you in which games the Defense and Special Teams scored more points than our opponents?

The D held the opponents to keep the game in reach but it was the offense that put together the drives at crunch time to win. If Skelton, and Kolb vs Dallas, and the O don't score in the 4th quarter we win one game the last half of the season. We're 2-14!

The Cards with Skelton scored 67 points in the 4th quarter the last 9 games. The team had 74 but 7 of those came with Kolb at QB.

If they do that every quarter they average 33 points a game.

Week 1: An 89 yard PP punt return won that game. Defense looked crappy. Kolb looked just OK but not bad considering the shortened offseason.

Week 9: Campbell Blocks a Field Goal to Force OT. A 99 yard PP punt return in OT won that game. Defense finally started to look like they belonged on the field. Skelton had one decent drive late in the game to tie things up against the hapless Rams.

Week 10: Two early interceptions spotted the eagles an 7 point half time lead. However Skelton was able to shake off those early INTs and rally the team for a win. Impressive win for Skelton on the road considering the bad start.

Week 12: Beanie Wells owns the Rams. Cards D dominates. PP has another punt return for TD.

Week 13: Kolb returns and has a OK game, nothing special. LSH catches a 5 yard pass and turns it into an amazing 45 yard run in OT to win the game. Defense looked great.

Week 14: Cards Defense put in a bad position by Offense but hold Niners to 4 FGs in the first half (plus another missed FG). Skelton is able to rally the Cardinals late in the game.

Week 15: Cards Offense struggles against the Hapless Browns. Defense forces a fumble and gets ball on Browns 5 yard line late in the 4th. Offense loses 6 yards and Feely kicks a field goal to tie the game. PP has a huge punt return in OT and Skelton manages to do enough to get Cards within Field Goal range for a game winner by Feely.

Week 17: Another Blocked field goal by PP. Plus a big PP return to set up a field goal. Fitzgerald making one of the most incredable catches I have ever seen to set up a TD. Cards let the Hawks come back but somehow do it again in OT.


Wow. 4 OT wins. No wonder why my hair is turning gray so fast.

 

[Duckjake]

you definitely don't need to tell me about the improvements our D made. I'm more impressed with their performance last year than I have ever been

You still don't get the point.

Offense: 84 yard TD drive to tie
Defense: Stop Jackson cold and force a punt
Special Teams: Blocked FG and 99 yard punt return

An outstanding performance by the TEAM! But it appears you refuse to acknowledge the Offense's contribution simply because Skelton was the QB.

Of course if we wanted to be negative we could look at it this way:

Offense: failed to run out the clock after getting the ball with 1:41 to play.
Special Teams: allowed a 19 yard punt return instead of pinning the Rams at their 17 they get the ball on their 36.
Defense: Rams get the ball on their 36 with 51 seconds left: give up a 23 yard pass on first down and get a Pass Interference Penalty carrying an automatic first down on 3rd and 6 and let Jackson run for 8 yards with 12 seconds left to move the Rams to the Cards 24 to get in FG range.