Kolb's Not Going Anywhere

[kerouac9]

Vision of the future:

Ken Whisenhunt discussed his decision to make Kevin Kolb the starter by explaining that fans only get a limited glance of what the quarterbacks do through preseason games. "Kolb didn't get a lot of chances to see what he could do in the preseason," said Whisenhunt. "The coaching staff has seen the way that he prepares day in and day out, the way that he commands the huddle, you know, the intangibles at the position. He has all the physical tools that you want, and we're excited for fans to get a chance to see them when Seattle comes to town next week."

Nothing is going to de-rail the "Kevin Kolb, starting quarterback" train. There's two reasons for this:

1) Kolb is more talented than Skelton. Kolb has the pedigree, both as a college player and as a pro. The coaching staff is invested in Kolb to the point that Whisenhunt was escorting #4 off the field following his boo-boo while Skelton was standing by himself waiting for the play to come in. But, more importantly,

2) You can't go back to Kolb if you bench him. You just can't. For the money that he's making, he has to start or be off the roster altogether. You can't cut him because he'd have at least an $8 million cap charge (and maybe closer to $15 million) that we probably can't absorb. You can't bench the guy you traded for 13 months ago, either.

I think that Whis learned an important lesson from the Leinart experience: Quarterback isn't just another position, and if you're going to cut someone loose, the next guy better be able to succeed. Whis is playing the long game here. If Kolb is benched, you can't go back to him and have any credibility. But if Kolb continues to play like the $20 million Max Hall, then you only have to hope that Skelton can stay healthy for 10 games instead of 16.

I think that even Kolb's defenders would concede that #4 is at best a marginal upgrade on a per-play basis over Skelton--Russ, TJ, AZF, DD, let me know if you think that Kolb's head-and-shoulders better than Skelton. If that's the case, then Kolb has to prove himself to be incapable of the job before you can move on from him.

The best solution from a W/L standpoint would be for Kolb to get an injury that would allow the team to place him on IR and then release him next March. Kolb isn't going to let that happen unless he's actually hurt. He has to get work elsewhere.

Anyway, a handful of reps in the preseason--and that's what we're going to be looking at from both guys--Calvisi was saying that each quarterback was only going to get a dozen reps or so last night--isn't going to change the minds of the coaching staff.

 

[40yearfan]

Vision of the future:



Nothing is going to de-rail the "Kevin Kolb, starting quarterback" train. There's two reasons for this:

1) Kolb is more talented than Skelton. Kolb has the pedigree, both as a college player and as a pro. The coaching staff is invested in Kolb to the point that Whisenhunt was escorting #4 off the field following his boo-boo while Skelton was standing by himself waiting for the play to come in. But, more importantly,

2) You can't go back to Kolb if you bench him. You just can't. For the money that he's making, he has to start or be off the roster altogether. You can't cut him because he'd have at least an $8 million cap charge (and maybe closer to $15 million) that we probably can't absorb. You can't bench the guy you traded for 13 months ago, either.

I think that Whis learned an important lesson from the Leinart experience: Quarterback isn't just another position, and if you're going to cut someone loose, the next guy better be able to succeed. Whis is playing the long game here. If Kolb is benched, you can't go back to him and have any credibility. But if Kolb continues to play like the $20 million Max Hall, then you only have to hope that Skelton can stay healthy for 10 games instead of 16.

I think that even Kolb's defenders would concede that #4 is at best a marginal upgrade on a per-play basis over Skelton--Russ, TJ, AZF, DD, let me know if you think that Kolb's head-and-shoulders better than Skelton. If that's the case, then Kolb has to prove himself to be incapable of the job before you can move on from him.

The best solution from a W/L standpoint would be for Kolb to get an injury that would allow the team to place him on IR and then release him next March. Kolb isn't going to let that happen unless he's actually hurt. He has to get work elsewhere.

Anyway, a handful of reps in the preseason--and that's what we're going to be looking at from both guys--Calvisi was saying that each quarterback was only going to get a dozen reps or so last night--isn't going to change the minds of the coaching staff.

Wasn't this same thing said about Lienart and Warner?

 

[kerouac9]

Wasn't this same thing said about Lienart and Warner?

What part? I'm not sure how people can continue throwing Warner back into the faces of Whis skeptics. It's not really the same thing. Warner was a two-time NFL MVP and lead the Rams to two Super Bowls. Leinart had a semi-promising rookie year but put up Kolb-type W/Ls, and then regressed his second year. Warner came in and played half a season of MVP-caliber football.

People who look at this year's QB competition through the lens of 2008 are out of their minds. The 2008 team could only succeed if the offense produced. The 2012 team can only succeed if the offense doesn't screw it up.

Implying that Kevin Kolb = Kurt Warner is some way is a mind-bogglingly inept comparison. This is more like 2010, and my argument is that the 2010 team would've been just as well off and probably better off if they'd gone from Leinart to Anderson than going from Anderson to Max Hall--who was getting regular-season playing time in Week 2 and starting by Week 5.

 

[40yearfan]

What part? I'm not sure how people can continue throwing Warner back into the faces of Whis skeptics. It's not really the same thing. Warner was a two-time NFL MVP and lead the Rams to two Super Bowls. Leinart had a semi-promising rookie year but put up Kolb-type W/Ls, and then regressed his second year. Warner came in and played half a season of MVP-caliber football.

People who look at this year's QB competition through the lens of 2008 are out of their minds. The 2008 team could only succeed if the offense produced. The 2012 team can only succeed if the offense doesn't screw it up.

Implying that Kevin Kolb = Kurt Warner is some way is a mind-bogglingly inept comparison. This is more like 2010, and my argument is that the 2010 team would've been just as well off and probably better off if they'd gone from Leinart to Anderson than going from Anderson to Max Hall--who was getting regular-season playing time in Week 2 and starting by Week 5.

You're completely off base K-9. I'm not comparing anybody to anybody. It's just that we had a young QB who was supposed to be our QBOF and everyone thought he would be given the reins without question. It didn't happen that way. Warner outplayed him and Whis used Warner instead. I think the same thing can happen with Kolb and Skelton. It Skelton outplays Kolb, Whis will start him regardless of cash considerations. It's just the way Whis operates.

 

[kerouac9]

You're completely off base K-9. I'm not comparing anybody to anybody. It's just that we had a young QB who was supposed to be our QBOF and everyone thought he would be given the reins without question. It didn't happen that way. Warner outplayed him and Whis used Warner instead. I think the same thing can happen with Kolb and Skelton. It Skelton outplays Kolb, Whis will start him regardless of cash considerations. It's just the way Whis operates.

I'm not sure that you understand what the word "compare" means, 40. Why do I think that? Because you explicitly compare the guys in this very paragraph.



P.S., Warner was making more money that Leinart in 2008. Don't tell anyone, or your whole argument will fall apart. Also, Kolb is making four times in salary and some 18 times total compensation what Skelton is making in 2012. I think that's a consideration that gets made, especially when Kolb is Whis's hand-picked champion. This isn't Whis choosing between two guys that Denny brought in.

 

[SoCal Cardfan]

I think that's a consideration that gets made, especially when Kolb is Whis's hand-picked champion. This isn't Whis choosing between two guys that Denny brought in.

I thought Kolb was hand-picked by Fitz.

 

[Doc Cardinal]

....except to the hospital.

 

[PJ1]

Neither are the Cards if he is our starter.

 

[Russ Smith]

My take is Kolb if healthy is better, but he can't stay healthy. I think he's a bad fit for this OL. I get where people say Skelton sets the pocket better etc but the 2 times last night Kolb left the pocket he didn't have time or a pocket to step into. the hit that knocked him out came from a guy coming inside. He got forced outside on the one he threw away because Snyder missed his man inside so instead of stepping up, Kolb stepped to his right and then the RT's man was there so he tried to run around him.

Skelton's big and strong so he can stand there with a guy at his legs and make the throw, Kolb can't, so with this OL I believe Skelton fits better.

The problem is Skelton also limits how good the O can be unless he becomes a better more accurate passer.

You'd like to see them open it up downfield more to take advantage of his arm, but I don't think we can pass block well enough to do that. So we're running the same system and Skelton's lack of timing and accuracy limits YAC.

I just think Kolb is going to keep getting hit, and keep getting hurt in this offense. There is no max protect there's always hits on the QB and Skelton handles that much better.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

1) Kolb is more talented than Skelton.

According to who, and based on what? Andy Reid's recommendations? Skelton is younger, prototypical size, and has the most important gift that Kolb is lacking, pocket presence. Almost nothing that Kolb has done as a Card has shown any indication that he's a decent NFL starting QB.

Even his vaunted accuracy and intelligence have proven to be a complete joke.

Last night's game really encapsulated everything that's wrong with Kolb, and everything that's right with Skelton.

Are we really going to waste another half season to definitively prove that Kevin Kolb sucks? Fortunately he'll never stay healthy enough to get to that point.

Time to start Skelton and focus on what we can be good at, a decent rushing attack, have Skelton take advantage of play action, and hope the defense keeps us in games.

 

[Duckjake]

I think that even Kolb's defenders would concede that #4 is at best a marginal upgrade on a per-play basis over Skelton

After watching some of the games from last year I don't think Kolb is even a marginal upgrade. He made some really dumb throws and is fortunate he didn't have 4-5 more interceptions. Not wild throws, high or wide, but throws into blanket coverage and to WRs who weren't even looking at him. It's like he can't see downfield and is just throwing to where he thinks the WR will be. And I'm not talking about timing throws where a QB is supposed to do that.

 

[JeffGollin]

Up to this point, I've preached wait & see.

Well, we saw a little. Mike Lombardi put it best, saying in essence, "When you sign a guy for that much money and he has a long way to go during the offseason, you expect to see improvement. I didn't see any."

Can't argue with that. I saw no improvement in accuracy, pocket presence, arm-strength, looking off the ball or durabilty.

If. decision had to be made "right now", I'd hand the keys over to Skelton. But the decision does not have to be made today, so it would be wise to let things play themselves out over the next couple of weeks. (What do we have to lose)?

That said - as the focus shifts a bit toward Skelton, he still has to play well enough to make everyone comfortable that we can win at least 10 games with him at QB.

Final observation - Kolb might look better if we had a better O-line. But we don't Therefore - our O-line being what it is - we figure to get better production out of Skelton (i.e. he seems to be the better fit for our system and supporting personnel).

 

[Chris_Sanders]

My take is Kolb if healthy is better, but he can't stay healthy. I think he's a bad fit for this OL. I get where people say Skelton sets the pocket better etc but the 2 times last night Kolb left the pocket he didn't have time or a pocket to step into.

100% disagree. I rewatched the play he got hurt in slow motion.

The play starts on the 12 yard line.

1-10-ARI 12 (6:29) 4-K.Kolb pass short right to 35-A.Sherman to ARI 16 for 4 yards (58-S.Shanle) [98-S.Ellis]. ARI-4-K.Kolb was injured during the play. His return is Questionable.

Kolb takes a drop all the way back to the 5. Prior to this there is a well defined pocket. The defender beats his man and LaRod chips him.

Kolb just has to slide slightly to the right and hit Sherman who is wide open for a large gain. However, he may take a hit afterwards.

Instead Kolb spins to the right and runs backwards literally another 7 yards until he is two yards deep in the end zone. That is 14 negative yards.

He is now outside of the pocket and Bridges man is free to clobber him and he does. The guy he was running from never made it into the play after LaRod chipped him.

Kolb's injury was a microcosm of everything annoying about how he plays. He threw the ball 16 yards to get a 4 yard completion and still got hit.

 

[desertdawg]

Yamon, I seriously doubt the club is done with Kolb. But I am beginning to think it's all moot if Kolb can't even take a single hit. I know I'm being over the top with that, but I've watched Kolb hardcore for a minute now and I only have one issue with the guy. It seems like for every 10 hits he takes, one will result in injury causing him to miss time on the field. 10 hits aint jack with this spread offense and it's O-line. So the Club can pump him up, I can go buy Kolb jerseys, but if he can't stay healthy then it's all for nothing. I was trying hard to koolaid, even with all the cussions, I worked really hard on ignoring the turf toe. Now he gets hurt on first contact, against a team that probably tried not to hurt a QB last night.

Revelations:4:19

4 may become before 19, but 19 is a lot bigger

 

[Jetstream Green]

If I knew nothing about the Cardinals but was aware of the years of experience of the QBs on the roster without the names, I would have said Kolb was the rookie. It is just the guy's mannerisms, he just does not seem sure of himself. Granted our OL really stunk it up for him, whether one decides he ran into the pressure or not...the line play stunk when he was in there BUT the dude should know how this line plays, and should have a better solution than rolling to his freaking right as usual with the same lackluster results. I have been a big supporter of Kolb, but this game for even his limited play showed everything that his doubters stress and you cannot avoid it. The worst part, as many have stressed, he is fragile and in this offense you are going to get hit and hit often...Skelton laughs it off and Kolb is petrified of it, for better or worse #19 seems to be the starter.

 

[kerouac9]

According to who, and based on what? Andy Reid's recommendations? Skelton is younger, prototypical size, and has the most important gift that Kolb is lacking, pocket presence. Almost nothing that Kolb has done as a Card has shown any indication that he's a decent NFL starting QB.

Even his vaunted accuracy and intelligence have proven to be a complete joke.

Last night's game really encapsulated everything that's wrong with Kolb, and everything that's right with Skelton.

Are we really going to waste another half season to definitively prove that Kevin Kolb sucks? Fortunately he'll never stay healthy enough to get to that point.

Time to start Skelton and focus on what we can be good at, a decent rushing attack, have Skelton take advantage of play action, and hope the defense keeps us in games.

Every scouting report, statistical analysis, college recruiter, and eyeball test. I don't like Kolb, but for one random play, I'd rather have Kolb under center than Skelton. On a per-play basis, I think it's impossible to concluded that Skelton's the superior quarterback. Skelton is scatter-armed and can't be depended on to make the easy throw or put the ball in a place where his receiver can do something with it. And I'm saying this as a guy who would prefer to see Skelton start.

My problem is saying that "last night's game encapsulated everything that's wrong with Kolb." He was on the field for some 8 plays? I get that he threw an inexcusable INT and then got himself hurt, but you can't decide the next 16 games on the last 8 plays.

It's funny. I think that Skelton gives the Arizona Cardinals the best chance to win 7 games, but I think that Kolb gives the Cards the best chance to win 9 games. That doesn't make logical sense, but that's the feeling I have on them.

I can't figure out a reason why Kolb kept getting worse and worse last year except that the league figured him out and he and the coaching staff couldn't respond. Unfortunately, I think that Whis is so hard-headed that he can't admit that he's wrong until it's abundantly clear that he's made a huge error. So we're going to stick with Kolb until the St. Louis game.

Watch.

 

[MadCardDisease]

Nothing is going to de-rail the "Kevin Kolb, starting quarterback" train.

I disagree. Failing to move the offense and having unforced turnovers will most definitely de-rail his starting job. Of couse this assumes that Skelton is playing at least somewhat decent.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Yamon, I seriously doubt the club is done with Kolb. But I am beginning to think it's all moot if Kolb can't even take a single hit. I know I'm being over the top with that, but I've watched Kolb hardcore for a minute now and I only have one issue with the guy. It seems like for every 10 hits he takes, one will result in injury causing him to miss time on the field. 10 hits aint jack with this spread offense and it's O-line. So the Club can pump him up, I can go buy Kolb jerseys, but if he can't stay healthy then it's all for nothing. I was trying hard to koolaid, even with all the cussions, I worked really hard on ignoring the turf toe. Now he gets hurt on first contact, against a team that probably tried not to hurt a QB last night.

lol... good point. Seriously, the first time he really gets tackled he gets hurt. The guy is just made of glass. That point can't be debated.

 

[TJ]

You're completely off base K-9. I'm not comparing anybody to anybody. It's just that we had a young QB who was supposed to be our QBOF and everyone thought he would be given the reins without question. It didn't happen that way. Warner outplayed him and Whis used Warner instead. I think the same thing can happen with Kolb and Skelton. It Skelton outplays Kolb, Whis will start him regardless of cash considerations. It's just the way Whis operates.

Agree. Leinart was the prohibitive favorite going into camp in 2008 based on his contract, age, promise, and perceived ability. Warner outplayed him especially in the all important 3rd preseason game against Oakland (I guess it's not hard to top 3 INTs in one half).

If Skelton outplays Kolb (or outlasts Kolb for that matter), Skelton is the starter. It's just that simple.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[kerouac9]

I disagree. Failing to move the offense and having unforced turnovers will most definitely de-rail his starting job. Of couse this assumes that Skelton is playing at least somewhat decent.

Joey Porter's experience as starting outside linebacker would disagree with you. As would Brandon Keith's tenure as starting right tackle. Keith would get benched mid-game and be starting the next week. Even if Bridges was "playing at least somewhat decent."

Again, what's the play for Whis if Skelton loses five games in a row to open the season? Is Kolb going to sit peaceably on the bench? If Whis puts the quick hook on Skelton, is the team going to believe in Kolb for that San Francisco game (or whenever it happens)?

 

[MadCardDisease]

Joey Porter's experience as starting outside linebacker would disagree with you. As would Brandon Keith's tenure as starting right tackle. Keith would get benched mid-game and be starting the next week. Even if Bridges was "playing at least somewhat decent."

Again, what's the play for Whis if Skelton loses five games in a row to open the season? Is Kolb going to sit peaceably on the bench? If Whis puts the quick hook on Skelton, is the team going to believe in Kolb for that San Francisco game (or whenever it happens)?

Why even have a competition then? Why didn't Whiz just come out and say this is Kolb team when they started camp?

 

[Russ Smith]

100% disagree. I rewatched the play he got hurt in slow motion.

The play starts on the 12 yard line.

1-10-ARI 12 (6:29) 4-K.Kolb pass short right to 35-A.Sherman to ARI 16 for 4 yards (58-S.Shanle) [98-S.Ellis]. ARI-4-K.Kolb was injured during the play. His return is Questionable.

Kolb takes a drop all the way back to the 5. Prior to this there is a well defined pocket. The defender beats his man and LaRod chips him.

Kolb just has to slide slightly to the right and hit Sherman who is wide open for a large gain. However, he may take a hit afterwards.

Instead Kolb spins to the right and runs backwards literally another 7 yards until he is two yards deep in the end zone. That is 14 negative yards.

He is now outside of the pocket and Bridges man is free to clobber him and he does. The guy he was running from never made it into the play after LaRod chipped him.

Kolb's injury was a microcosm of everything annoying about how he plays. He threw the ball 16 yards to get a 4 yard completion and still got hit.

I'll have to watch it again but Bridges man didn't hit him unless Bridges was blocking Ellis who plays inside.

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/0ap2000000046403/Kevin-Kolb-rib-injury

It's Snyder's man Ellis that hits him. 94 Cameron Jordan is the guy you are talking about I guess if anything the looped or stunted because Jordan came inside on Bridges and Ellis wound up outside. But there is no pocket to step up into because of Jordan, and when he tries to get outside Snyders man is right there.

I couldn't really see Sherman there to know if he's wide open or not but what I saw is Jordan go right by Bridges and Ellis go right by Snyder. Hyphen from what I can see starts to come up on jordan but then turns to his left to pick up someone else maybe that's who you're saying he chipped but it doesn't seem to me he chips Jordan.

hard to say the clip stops and starts on my computer.

 

[Chopper0080]

Vision of the future:



Nothing is going to de-rail the "Kevin Kolb, starting quarterback" train. There's two reasons for this:

1) Kolb is more talented than Skelton. Kolb has the pedigree, both as a college player and as a pro. The coaching staff is invested in Kolb to the point that Whisenhunt was escorting #4 off the field following his boo-boo while Skelton was standing by himself waiting for the play to come in. But, more importantly,

2) You can't go back to Kolb if you bench him. You just can't. For the money that he's making, he has to start or be off the roster altogether. You can't cut him because he'd have at least an $8 million cap charge (and maybe closer to $15 million) that we probably can't absorb. You can't bench the guy you traded for 13 months ago, either.

I think that Whis learned an important lesson from the Leinart experience: Quarterback isn't just another position, and if you're going to cut someone loose, the next guy better be able to succeed. Whis is playing the long game here. If Kolb is benched, you can't go back to him and have any credibility. But if Kolb continues to play like the $20 million Max Hall, then you only have to hope that Skelton can stay healthy for 10 games instead of 16.

I think that even Kolb's defenders would concede that #4 is at best a marginal upgrade on a per-play basis over Skelton--Russ, TJ, AZF, DD, let me know if you think that Kolb's head-and-shoulders better than Skelton. If that's the case, then Kolb has to prove himself to be incapable of the job before you can move on from him.

The best solution from a W/L standpoint would be for Kolb to get an injury that would allow the team to place him on IR and then release him next March. Kolb isn't going to let that happen unless he's actually hurt. He has to get work elsewhere.

Anyway, a handful of reps in the preseason--and that's what we're going to be looking at from both guys--Calvisi was saying that each quarterback was only going to get a dozen reps or so last night--isn't going to change the minds of the coaching staff.

I think all your points are true, but I think it will come down to Skelton because will not be able to stay on the field and the coaching staff will be forced to play and plan with the QB they can depend on. As I stated on another thread, I think Kolb is a better QB, but I believe Skelton is a better QB for the Cardinals. Skelton has just proven he can manage the Cardinals deficiencies on the oline better than Kolb can.

 

[Russ Smith]

I think all your points are true, but I think it will come down to Skelton because will not be able to stay on the field and the coaching staff will be forced to play and plan with the QB they can depend on. As I stated on another thread, I think Kolb is a better QB, but I believe Skelton is a better QB for the Cardinals. Skelton has just proven he can manage the Cardinals deficiencies on the oline better than Kolb can.

Yep that's where I am too. On a team with a better OL we'd see the difference in accuracy, but on this team we see the difference in dealing with the pass rush and that's why Skelton looks better right now.

 

[Chopper0080]

I'll have to watch it again but Bridges man didn't hit him unless Bridges was blocking Ellis who plays inside.

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/0ap2000000046403/Kevin-Kolb-rib-injury

It's Snyder's man Ellis that hits him. 94 Cameron Jordan is the guy you are talking about I guess if anything the looped or stunted because Jordan came inside on Bridges and Ellis wound up outside. But there is no pocket to step up into because of Jordan, and when he tries to get outside Snyders man is right there.

I couldn't really see Sherman there to know if he's wide open or not but what I saw is Jordan go right by Bridges and Ellis go right by Snyder. Hyphen from what I can see starts to come up on jordan but then turns to his left to pick up someone else maybe that's who you're saying he chipped but it doesn't seem to me he chips Jordan.

hard to say the clip stops and starts on my computer.

Is this the play where Snyder's man hit shim so hard Snyder does a 360? #snyderswallofshame