Kyler Murray Debate Thread

[602 Native]

Facts and context aren’t things the IHKC abide by.. and they just scream and stomp and move on the next irrelevant claim. Make assertions that you are a Kyler lover and can’t see anything else. It’s truly wild, I really question how these individuals deal with real life debates or maybe perhaps this is just their fun at antagonizing on message boards.

QBR is made up of all kinds of stats that are meaningful. It gives the most well rounded picture of QBs and has the best in the game right now at the top. To deny K1 isn’t playing at an elite level right now based on QBR is just being entrenched in your bias. It could change but that would be terrible for the Cardinals.

 

[602 Native]

People would rather have this guy as our QB.

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[SoonerLou]

The contortions to avoid the QBR are fun to see.

Meanwhile the top 5 is made up of all the guys you wish we had and non of them are traditional drop back QBs. They are all hybrid QBs except one.
Times are changing.

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I wouldn't hang on QBR cause I got a feeling its going to drop after we play the Bears and Jets. Those teams can actually get pressure on the QB. Still need to see this passing game by Drew against those caliber of defenses.

Still there is a disconnect in top 3 in QBR and top 7 in PFF vs the overall commentary on Kyler. Again I think the low volume + a couple blowout losses just has people wanting to see more. A couple of big tests coming up.

 

[602 Native]

I wouldn't hang on QBR cause I got a feeling its going to drop after we play the Bears and Jets. Those teams can actually get pressure on the QB. Still need to see this passing game by Drew against those caliber of defenses.

Still there is a disconnect in top 3 in QBR and top 7 in PFF vs the overall commentary on Kyler. Again I think the low volume + a couple blowout losses just has people wanting to see more. A couple of big tests coming up.

Every NFL game is tough. The Chargers and the Dolphins had highly ranked defenses when we played them. The Bears and Jets are no different. It will take a team effort to beat both.

Zero issue with him falling in the QBR rankings. My issue is discounting it because it doesn’t agree with someone’s bias against K1.

 

[kerouac9]

The contortions to avoid the QBR are fun to see.

Meanwhile the top 5 is made up of all the guys you wish we had and non of them are traditional drop back QBs. They are all hybrid QBs except one.
Times are changing.

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I don’t know if or how you can’t see that when Kyler is outstanding in one black-box metric but lags in nearly every other, it might be a statistical quirk with the metric.

 

[DVontel]

Is this just the 602 & Crimson vs BritCard & Stout thread now?

 

[slanidrac16]

Is this just the 602 & Crimson vs BritCard & Stout thread now?

To summarize this thread. Kyler is:
Sometimes great
Sometimes good
Sometimes average
Sometimes below average.

 

[Chopper0080]

The contortions to avoid the QBR are fun to see.

Meanwhile the top 5 is made up of all the guys you wish we had and non of them are traditional drop back QBs. They are all hybrid QBs except one.
Times are changing.

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That is because QBR skews to QB rushing.

I think it is fair for people to look at Kyler's individual stats and say that they do not reflect a top 10 QB even if there is a composite stat that does. PFF uses composite stats and that is why people are skeptical of their ranks at times.

 

[BritCard]

The contortions to avoid the QBR are fun to see.

Meanwhile the top 5 is made up of all the guys you wish we had and non of them are traditional drop back QBs. They are all hybrid QBs except one.
Times are changing.

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Nobody is avoiding QBR, it's just meaningless. It's heavily weighted towards mobile QB's which is why Mitch Trubisky once finished 3rd, and thus not really representative.

For example, in its first year (2006) Matt Leinart finished 10th with his whopping 56.8 completion percentage, 6.8 YPA, 11/12 TD interception ratio and 212 yard per game. Do you think Matt Leinart was a top 10 QB? That he was so good they dumped him for Kurt?

Is Brock Purdy the best QB in the league? Because QBR says he was last year. Was Dak the 2nd best?

Do you agree that Kyler was the 22nd best QB last year 9 spots behind Gardner Minshew? And worse than Denver Broncos Russell Wilson? Because QBR says he was.

Do you agree that in 2022 Justin Fields, Jimmy G, Marcus Mariota, Danny Jones and Jacoby Brissett were all better than Kyler? Because QBR says they were.

QBR says Kirk Cousins has been better than Mahomes the last 2 years...

The problem is, if you want to use QBR it says more bad things about Kyler's career than good.

 

[Crimson Warrior]

Consistency for me is not laying stinkers as often as playing stellar and putting together whole seasons you can point to and say, "Yeah, this was a good year for him." Pretty straightforward. The best he has achieved in recent memory has been that he was good enough last season to give him another shot. That's not a ringing endorsement. This season, he's had some stellar play, some awful play, and much more in between play. It's a positive that he's played it safe a lot, because he is not losing games through errors, but that is also a negative because in losses he wasn't doing much to win games either. So, this season has been a mixed bag. He's got to find more...well, you know

Interesting.

I at least agree with looking at an entire year as a whole, but the above still seems kind of vibes-based Stout. Too subjective.

You know our most revered QB of all time was up and down. If you look at Warner's game log for the superbowl season, there are some pretty poor games in there.

Where I'm coming from is for the long term success of the Cardinals, it's better if you have reasonable expectations for the QB1. Don't spend resources on the QB position if you don't need to!

I think it comes down to can Murray win a superbowl. Can he play consistent enough through the first three quarters of the Big Game to give the team a chance to win?

And on 3rd and 10, in the 4Q of a tied championship game, can you rely on him to make a play to move the chains? Inside of 4:00, can you rely on him to lead the offense to the go-ahead score?

 

[kerouac9]

Nobody is avoiding QBR, it's just meaningless.

It's not meaningless, but it's not the One True Metric, either. It's fine to scratch the surface of any metric and see if it's really giving you the summary info you want. Like with PFF grades, QBR seems to be overrating Kyler compared to nearly other metric available.

Is Brock Purdy the best QB in the league?

Maybe? It's time to start taking this question seriously.

I think it comes down to can Murray win a superbowl. Can he play consistent enough through the first three quarters of the Big Game to give the team a chance to win?

It can't come down to that. Odds are good we'll never know.

 

[602 Native]

Nobody is avoiding QBR, it's just meaningless.

And there it is.

 

[SoonerLou]

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[Chris_Sanders]

Is this just the 602 & Crimson vs BritCard & Stout thread now?

Just imagine this was in every thread like two weeks ago. At least here it is easy to follow lol

 

[Chris_Sanders]

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You must be registered for see images attach

This is for @kerouac9

 

[SoonerLou]

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This is for @kerouac9

Again I was down on Kyler in this offense last year. And used his low PFF grade/QBR grade to show how he was subpar last year.

But yea...hopefully we get more wins/eye test so we don't have worry or justify his play. We need Kyler to be obvious. No one cares about Mahomes or even Herbert's stats.

 

[602 Native]

You must be registered for see images attach

This is for @kerouac9

That is a fantastic meme.
Well done!

 

[Chris_Sanders]

That is a fantastic meme.
Well done!

PFF drives me nuts but today I am like Yay lol

 

[Stout]

Facts and context aren’t things the KC abide by.. and they just scream and stomp and move on the next irrelevant claim. Make assertions that you are a Kyler lover and can’t see anything else. It’s truly wild, I really question how these individuals deal with real life debates or maybe perhaps this is just their fun at antagonizing on message boards.

FTFY

Look, the facts are that anyone can cherry pick stats to support their argument. Unless someone's trying to prop up Tom Tupa as our best ever QB, and no stat can support that! If Kyler can be consistent by the end of the year, great! He'll have earned a lot of credit. If he can't, there will be little stomach for, "Maybe he'll become consistent in year 7" on the board.

 

[602 Native]

Is this just the 602 & Crimson vs BritCard & Stout thread now?

Ha

All are welcome to the debate brother.

 

[Stout]

I wouldn't hang on QBR cause I got a feeling its going to drop after we play the Bears and Jets. Those teams can actually get pressure on the QB. Still need to see this passing game by Drew against those caliber of defenses.

Still there is a disconnect in top 3 in QBR and top 7 in PFF vs the overall commentary on Kyler. Again I think the low volume + a couple blowout losses just has people wanting to see more. A couple of big tests coming up.

Hammer, meet nail. This succinctly sums up my viewpoint.

 

[Stout]

Is this just the 602 & Crimson vs BritCard & Stout thread now?

Nah. I've stopped responding to 602. No point.

 

[Stout]

Interesting.

I at least agree with looking at an entire year as a whole, but the above still seems kind of vibes-based Stout. Too subjective.

You know our most revered QB of all time was up and down. If you look at Warner's game log for the superbowl season, there are some pretty poor games in there.

Where I'm coming from is for the long term success of the Cardinals, it's better if you have reasonable expectations for the QB1. Don't spend resources on the QB position if you don't need to!

I think it comes down to can Murray win a superbowl. Can he play consistent enough through the first three quarters of the Big Game to give the team a chance to win?

And on 3rd and 10, in the 4Q of a tied championship game, can you rely on him to make a play to move the chains? Inside of 4:00, can you rely on him to lead the offense to the go-ahead score?

You kind of have to be viewer based to have any hope for a guy who has not one single significant W in his portfolio. We're not going to compare him to Warner because he will not shine in that comparison. Once he's won Super Bowls, playoff games, or even a clinching game to get to the playoffs, we can start excusing the ups and downs. We're in year 6 and he's led the team nowhere. I get the argument that this is a bad team and that has to be taken into consideration, so, if we set the previous aside, and aside from our preseason expectations thread, where we stated our minimum stats required, what else do we have to go off but what we see on the field?

 

[BritCard]

And there it is.

And there what is? The truth about QBR?

It's hilarious you're all over this right now as some kind of proof to support your wild assertions.

 

[Crimson Warrior]

People would rather have this guy as our QB.

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It's maybe the most frustrating thing about being a big Murray fan, is that, a lot of the guys on here would trade him for whatever QB just had a good game last week.

J. Daniels is a great example. 90% of the main K1 detractors here would trade Murray right this second for Daniels, and wouldn't think twice about it.

It doesn't matter that Daniels' inevitable regression is coming, and he will likely sink below Murray performance wise over a full 34 game stretch.

The Never Murray's are just that desperate to get rid of Kyler and draft the next Trevor Lawrence because they think it will "make the team better".

Murray is giving this sad sack franchise everything he's got, but they want to throw him out like yesterday's garbage. It's pretty offputting.