Kyler Murray Debate Thread

[602 Native]

This is where I'm at.

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[SoonerLou]

Plenty of fastballs have been thrown to McBride, Wilson, and even yesterday to MHJ.

Who are we throwing deep passes to?

Our guys barely get separation from anyone.

Im talking in terms of deep ball accuracy. A couple of years I think he charted as best or 2nd best.

There's fastballs and one of the best arms in the league. I think his arm used to be stronger or he's just taking something off it. Just my opinion.

 

[Crimson Warrior]

This is where I'm at.

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Overall, and against a slate of tough defenses (BUF, DET, SEA, WAS, MIN) K1 has had a very good year, I agree. This with questionable play from WR1 and WR3, and some weird play calling from DP.

That his stock is down some after road games vs. SEA and MIN is not super surprising. I think he got a little unlucky yesterday, and (through his own mistakes) quickly went from hero to goat over the course of a few minutes. Not the end of the world though.

Generally he's been great at SFS, (rating of 104.1, 8.0 YPC, 7TDs 2 INTs, 9.0 per rushing attempt) and I'm very confident he'll play well at home this week vs. SEA.

 

[Crimson Warrior]

Im talking in terms of deep ball accuracy. A couple of years I think he charted as best or 2nd best.

I think his arm used to be stronger or he's just taking something off it. Just my opinion.

I have to admit SoonerLou I've wondered the same thing.

The 80 yard TD to Kirk vs. DAL (I think it was 2020) would be the standard we might use to judge this hypothesis. That throw was an ICBM.

I wish there was an app or something to measure QB throw velocity.

Still, K1 has had several excellent games as a passer this year, including the perfect game vs. LA. I'm not a 100% sure it's an issue.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

This is where I'm at.

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Alert the press! To call his total body of work tremendous is ridiculous.

Great Games:
Rams
Dolphins
Jets

Very Good Games:
49ers
Chargers


Mid Games:
Bills
Lions
Commanders
Packers
Bears
Seahawks
Vikings

This is not a tremendous season. He's been good to very good, but to be tremendous, you need to be a legitimate MVP candidate. He just isn't.

 

[Crimson Warrior]

Plenty of fastballs have been thrown to McBride, Wilson, and even yesterday to MHJ.

Who are we throwing deep passes to?

Our guys barely get separation from anyone.

DHop owned the sidelines (he freaking owned them) and Kirk could occasionally get behind defenses.

But MHJ is no DHop (not even close, at least not yet) and Dortch is no Kirk (love his big heart but he'll never be Kirk).

All of the "this could be the best offense in the league" was predicated on our WR room being above average. It's not.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

Alert the press! To call his total body of work tremendous is ridiculous.

Great Games:
Rams

Very Good Games:
49ers
Chargers
Dolphins
Jets


Mid Games:
Bills
Lions
Commanders
Packers
Bears
Seahawks
Vikings

This is not a tremendous season. He's been good to very good, but to be tremendous, you need to be a legitimate MVP candidate. He just isn't.

What is the cut off between great and very good for you? An argument could be made for the Miami and Jets games being on the same level as the Rams game.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

What is the cut off between great and very good for you? An argument could be made for the Miami and Jets games being on the same level as the Rams game.

That's fair - edited. 5 games very good to great, 7 mid. Certainly not enough to call a season tremendous. Good to very good yes, but definitely not tremendous.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

That's fair - edited. 5 games very good to great, 7 mid. Certainly not enough to call a season tremendous. Good to very good yes, but definitely not tremendous.

This is fair. I don't think any of us are saying he sucks or is having a terrible year, just that he hasn't been as good as we hope he can be.

 

[602 Native]

This is fair. I don't think any of us are saying he sucks or is having a terrible year, just that he hasn't been as good as we hope he can be.

There are plenty of people on here and in the fanbase ready to move from K1 based on this season.

Its delusional

 

[ASUCHRIS]

There are plenty of people on here and in the fanbase ready to move from K1 based on this season.

Its delusional

Name them. If there are plenty of them, this should be an easy exercise.

 

[602 Native]

Name them. If there are plenty of them, this should be an easy exercise.

I don't need to.

77 people at the beginning of the season voted to move on in an actual poll here on this site.

 

[kerouac9]

I don't need to.

77 people at the beginning of the season voted to move on in an actual poll here on this site.

We have a bunch more data to change our minds. And I wasn’t even one of those 77.

 

[Chopper0080]

I would have loved to have played American football. Came to the sport late as a fan but it's different I think having never played or coached, even at junior levels, or grown up with the game. That innate understanding is not there even though I love watching & learning about the game now.

Anyway... am seeking some technical expertise re the Murray/Marvin "not on the same page" supposed teething problems that are still simmering away months into the season.

The timing for both the QB and the receiver would have to slightly fluid, right? The pesky opposition don't always do what they're supposed to.

Kyler for instance might have to release the ball a fraction faster than intended if a rusher beats his man and is bearing down. But does Kyler feel that? Is he aware that the receiver might not quite be ready, may not have quite turned their head - unaware that Kyler is being hurried.

So Kyler needs to take a fraction off the throw, bit more air, wider, whatever. Compensate for the quick release. Give the receiver a chance to make the play.

I've seen other QBs take a hit even so that they can throw at the last possible split second, to give the WR the best chance to be where they need to be.

Similarly if Kyler gets in a bit of a tangle in the pocket. Takes him a fraction longer than anticipated to get clear of the pressure and find the passing lane. The window closing fast so the throw needs to be a BULLET to get there. Adjustment as required.

Likewise it might take the WR a fraction more time to get clear of his man than intended - they get in a tangle or there's a bit of a hold. Or the opposite - they slip him with a step earlier than expected and are open but hurry up. Does Kyler have a good feel for when the WR needs a split second longer or when he needs the ball NOW?

So the QB can speed up or slow down the timing as needed. Does Kyler have that feel? That touch?

All of the above is steered Kyler's way. But the same needs to apply to the WR too. He needs to be aware of the variables the QB might be dealing with. Fitz never seemed surprised that a throw was upon him. I'm sure it wasn't because every throw to him was impeccably timed. He was ready. Born ready. I know it's probably unfair to compare a rookie, however talented, to a future HoFer but MHJ seems to be surprised a bit too often.

I guess what's frustrating about the Kyler/MHJ connection is that there doesn't seem to have been a lot of progress over the season. There are still miscues as though it's a preseason cobwebs game.
They're still having some great moments but a bunch of misses alongside.
And it's also frustrating because it feels like as a duo they could be incredible

Here is a quick example. I believe it was in the first half, Kyler threw a ball to MHJ and it was knocked away. Greg Olsen rightly stated that MHJ has to continue to work back to the ball. Here is where the timing of the NFL matters. QBs generally need to have their drop timed with the pass routes. Similarly WRs have to execute their routes to break when the QB hits their drop. In this play, the timing is off between Kyler and MHJ. MHJ runs his sticks route past the 1st down marker and then turns and settles, ready for the ball. The ball isn't there and Marv freezes because he wants to stay at the sticks and coming back to the ball will not be enough for the 1st down. Because the timing was off, it becomes an incomplete pass.

That is where timing matters in the passing game and where MHJ showed inexperience by trying to stay past the sticks vs coming back harder for the ball.

 

[82CardsGrad]

There are plenty of people on here and in the fanbase ready to move from K1 based on this season.

Its delusional

I've been ready to move from K1 for the past 4 seasons. This season is merely just another to reinforce the position I've held over an extended period of time.
That said... 1 minute 18 seconds left in the game. 3 Time outs and ya just need to get in FG range down a point, starting on your own 30 yard-line.

In his 6th season, a former #1 overall pick and a guy now making $46m a year with $103m guaranteed... in a game where, until the 4th quarter (a.k.a. crunch time), he was moving the ball virtually at-will... Yea, he did what he's done throughout his career. It's not fair to compare him to generational talents like Mahomes and Allen, who march their teams into FG range - if not score a TD - in that scenario time and time again. But I'd also say other less talented QB's would've likely done the same, such as: Burrow, Mayfield, Stafford, Goff, Purdy, Herbert, Hurts, Wilson... and I'd wager some $$ that QB's such as: Geno Smith, Darnold, Love and Stroud would've executed in that scenario and put the team in FG position.

So, we enjoy meaningful December games, a rare commodity for this franchise and yes, Kyler is in part, a reason why we can enjoy competitive football at this time of year. But until he actually demonstrates an ability to orchestrate wins late in a season with loads of stuff on the line, I'll remain wholly skeptical and convinced until proven wrong, that he is not a winner at the NFL level. And yes, he can win games so don't misconstrue my point. He just can't win the games that matter most, which, given his draft position and contract, is truly unfortunate.

 

[SoonerLou]

Well. I figured with a strong final 5 games (last 2 have really set him back though) that he'd have a chance at the last spot in the Pro Bowl.

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Now I think even if he finishes strong Jayden's got too much of a good narrative. Goff and Hurts are locks.

Darnold likely the edge now as first alternate.

 

[tennis-player]

Well. I figured with a strong final 5 games (last 2 have really set him back though) that he'd have a chance at the last spot in the Pro Bowl.

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Now I think even if he finishes strong Jayden's got too much of a good narrative. Goff and Hurts are locks.

Darnold likely the edge now as first alternate.

Pro Bowl? Pro Bowl? I would rather have him win a game.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

I've been ready to move from K1 for the past 4 seasons. This season is merely just another to reinforce the position I've held over an extended period of time.
That said... 1 minute 18 seconds left in the game. 3 Time outs and ya just need to get in FG range down a point.

In his 6th season, a former #1 overall pick and a guy now making $46m a year with $103m guaranteed... in a game where, until the 4th quarter (a.k.a. crunch time), he was moving the ball virtually at-will... Yea, he did what he's done throughout his career. It's not fair to compare him to generational talents like Mahomes and Allen, who march their teams into FG range - if not score a TD - in that scenario time and time again. But I'd also say other less talented QB's would've likely done the same, such as: Burrow, Mayfield, Stafford, Goff, Purdy, Herbert, Hurts, Wilson... and I'd wager some $$ that QB's such as: Geno Smith, Darnold, Love and Stroud would've executed in that scenario and put the team in FG position.

So, we enjoy meaningful December games, a rare commodity for this franchise and yes, Kyler is in part, a reason why we can enjoy competitive football at this time of year. But until he actually demonstrates an ability to orchestrate wins late in a season with loads of stuff on the line, I'll remain wholly skeptical and convinced until proven wrong, that he is not a winner at the NFL level. And yes, he can win games so don't misconstrue my point. He just can't win the games that matter most, which, given his draft position and contract, is truly unfortunate.

To be fair, (though not the exact same scenario) the Bills lost to the Texans to a last second FG because Allen went 0-3 for a 3 and out and a punt allowing the Texans to score the last second FG.

While I can't point out any this year, twice last year Mahomes failed to drive down the field in the same scenario. In the Detroit game last year he had two possessions and failed on both. It happens to the best QBs in the league.

 

[82CardsGrad]

To be fair, (though not the exact same scenario) the Bills lost to the Texans to a last second FG because Allen went 0-3 for a 3 and out and a punt allowing the Texans to score the last second FG.

While I can't point out any this year, twice last year Mahomes failed to drive down the field in the same scenario. In the Detroit game last year he had two possessions and failed on both. It happens to the best QBs in the league.

Of course... just like the greatest MLB hitters fail 65%-70% of the time... However, if Mahomes and Allen are batting .350 in clutch time situations, Kyler is barely above the Mendoza line...

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

Of course... just like the greatest MLB hitters fail 65%-70% of the time... However, if Mahomes and Allen are batting .350 in clutch time situations, Kyler is barely above the Mendoza line...

But isn't Kyler 3-1 in this scenario this year?

 

[DVontel]

Comparing Kyler to Mahomes & Allen is just a waste of time.

What is there to be gained with that conversation?

 

[82CardsGrad]

But isn't Kyler 3-1 in this scenario this year?

As I've been saying and as is generally well-known and accepted, Kyler can win games... He just seems to struggle greatly doing so in the latter half of the season, when, you know...the pressure to win is greater and the games have far more implication.

 

[602 Native]

I've been ready to move from K1 for the past 4 seasons. This season is merely just another to reinforce the position I've held over an extended period of time.
That said... 1 minute 18 seconds left in the game. 3 Time outs and ya just need to get in FG range down a point, starting on your own 30 yard-line.

In his 6th season, a former #1 overall pick and a guy now making $46m a year with $103m guaranteed... in a game where, until the 4th quarter (a.k.a. crunch time), he was moving the ball virtually at-will... Yea, he did what he's done throughout his career. It's not fair to compare him to generational talents like Mahomes and Allen, who march their teams into FG range - if not score a TD - in that scenario time and time again. But I'd also say other less talented QB's would've likely done the same, such as: Burrow, Mayfield, Stafford, Goff, Purdy, Herbert, Hurts, Wilson... and I'd wager some $$ that QB's such as: Geno Smith, Darnold, Love and Stroud would've executed in that scenario and put the team in FG position.

So, we enjoy meaningful December games, a rare commodity for this franchise and yes, Kyler is in part, a reason why we can enjoy competitive football at this time of year. But until he actually demonstrates an ability to orchestrate wins late in a season with loads of stuff on the line, I'll remain wholly skeptical and convinced until proven wrong, that he is not a winner at the NFL level. And yes, he can win games so don't misconstrue my point. He just can't win the games that matter most, which, given his draft position and contract, is truly unfortunate.

This is even more delusional.

 

[gimpy]

If you want to say that Murray hasn't won any big games as a Cardinal that's tough to argue, but he has a chance to start to chase that monkey off his back next week.

Personally, I think the team will come out and get an important win in the rematch with the hags, but I admit I'm holding my breath a little.

Seems to me like he had that chance 2 weeks ago, and again, this past week.

 

[SoonerLou]

Almost posted in the Petzing thread, but still not great body language on a must have play.

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Its also why I wished he was ready to run when sent a man blitz.