Kyler Murray

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BW52

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I'm more inclined to see it as KM adjusting to the league in year two. I don't consider Baker's adjustment as particularly relevant to KM given that BM was prone to turnovers in year one, too.
I like the fact that KM seems to be not turnover prone but playing conservative like he has leads to more FGs and less TDs do far.You go for the TD and take more shots toward the end zone you are likely to have more mistakes/turnovers.Sort of no risk/no biscuit.KK might be keeping KM playing conservative as several have suggested and maybe KM won't be a real risk taker till next season.
 

Cardsfaninlouky

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Nonsense BS trash statement.Rosen has been put in two impossible situations and if you can`t see that then you can`t be helped.
Rosen was put in two impossible situations, no arguing that part at all. That being said, KM has speed & can scramble, he can make something out of nothing. He does make rookie mistakes, frustrates me when he just falls to the ground but I don't want him taking the hits Cam Newton has taken. Rosen can't scramble like that & can't make the same throws KM can. KM doesn't fumble & he can move the chains with QB runs. I see you have doubts but just sit back & watch him get better & better. I'm sure you'll be pleased with his progress eventually.
 

Cardsfaninlouky

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Gush as much as you want, man. I'm not stopping you at this point.

Just don't get mad at me for not wanting to gush about anything on a team that's 3-7-1, and not trending well to win another game, when we're a traditionally cursed franchise with a GM who should be on the outs, and a bad coach so far in his career. This board talks about KM like he's in the conversation with Lamar Jackson/Russell Wilson for MVP.
This board talks about KM imo because they can see what we have with him, even on a 3-7-1 team. You think Lamar Jackson or Russell Wilson would have a much better record with our defense? I highly doubt it, maybe a game or two at the very best. With KM as our QB & being a rookie, he's put us in position to win more games, only to be let down by our defense once again. We're a handful of plays away in about 4-5 games from having 7-8 wins right now. There's things KM can do better, any QB for that matter, but he's a rookie & keeps getting better every week & that's all we can ask right now, considering how bad this defense is. People on this board are gushing because they see the talent of our QB & the future looks bright, we couldn't gush about anything last season. With as close as we've been in most games this season, we sign the right pieces in the offseason, we may just have a shot for the postseason next yr? We just have to sit back & see who all we sign & draft.
 

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Remove the weather ruined Giants game and his averages are at 299.

As I've said before...the question is if Kyler can figure out how to put up touchdowns like Jackson/Mahomes/Watson.

He's moving the ball at will for a young guy.
 

SoonerLou

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I like the fact that KM seems to be not turnover prone but playing conservative like he has leads to more FGs and less TDs do far.You go for the TD and take more shots toward the end zone you are likely to have more mistakes/turnovers.Sort of no risk/no biscuit.KK might be keeping KM playing conservative as several have suggested and maybe KM won't be a real risk taker till next season.
He's on pace 20 TD passes. Which is decent, really good for a rookie QB.

Not to mention he's missed out on about 3 or 4 TDs this year from (penalty, drops/not keeping foot down)

I think he is being coached to be conservative. So I have no doubts he'll be more aggressive as the Oline improves.

The only real issue is whether Kyler is too small to throw over the middle in the redzone. We've seen him fit the ball into tight windows so its not like Kyler can't make those throws. The redzone is condensed so the windows are even tighter and right now we're not calling many plays over the middle in the redzone. Also the standing far back from center in the redzone makes it tougher as well. The ball has to come out quick (we know hes got an amazing release) but sometimes we are lined up as if we're in the middle of the field.

Thats something Kyler has to overcome. I think right now Kliff is trying to coach around that and hoping Kyler's feet will just overcome it like Russell Wilson does for the Seahawks.
 

Solar7

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This board talks about KM imo because they can see what we have with him, even on a 3-7-1 team. You think Lamar Jackson or Russell Wilson would have a much better record with our defense? I highly doubt it, maybe a game or two at the very best. With KM as our QB & being a rookie, he's put us in position to win more games, only to be let down by our defense once again. We're a handful of plays away in about 4-5 games from having 7-8 wins right now. There's things KM can do better, any QB for that matter, but he's a rookie & keeps getting better every week & that's all we can ask right now, considering how bad this defense is. People on this board are gushing because they see the talent of our QB & the future looks bright, we couldn't gush about anything last season. With as close as we've been in most games this season, we sign the right pieces in the offseason, we may just have a shot for the postseason next yr? We just have to sit back & see who all we sign & draft.

And you and I disagree about the level of valid optimism here. I don't think KM can do enough to make up for a coach who hasn't shown he can win at any level, or a general manager who can't acquire talent that makes it to their second contract, and wastes cap room like its going out of style.

I've written this in another thread - we were literally 10 points away from a 7 win season last year, too. Kyler has had the ball in his hands while in position to win a couple of times, and hasn't pulled it off. Let me say emphatically, this is not all his fault, he is a good player right now, and he doesn't play defense.

Where I stand at the moment is that this is an awful team, with very few players under contract for 2020, who has an overwhelming amount of problems that I don't know our QB can overcome.

But this has so little to do with Kyler Murray, it has more to do with us being 3-7-1, and unlikely to improve significantly on last year. We went from historically awful, to just plainly awful.
 

CardsSunsDbacks

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But this has so little to do with Kyler Murray, it has more to do with us being 3-7-1, and unlikely to improve significantly on last year. We went from historically awful, to just plainly awful.
We are not "awful". Last year we were historically bad on offense and are actually pretty good on that end this year. The defense is worse than last year and that is why our record isn't significantly better. That is mostly on the shoulders of Kiem and VJ as the talent sucks, but VJ doesn't exactly appear to be getting the players to outperform the talent level either.
 
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Remove the weather ruined Giants game and his averages are at 299.

As I've said before...the question is if Kyler can figure out how to put up touchdowns like Jackson/Mahomes/Watson.

He's moving the ball at will for a young guy.

until he gets to the REDZONE.
 

Cardsfaninlouky

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And you and I disagree about the level of valid optimism here. I don't think KM can do enough to make up for a coach who hasn't shown he can win at any level, or a general manager who can't acquire talent that makes it to their second contract, and wastes cap room like its going out of style.

I've written this in another thread - we were literally 10 points away from a 7 win season last year, too. Kyler has had the ball in his hands while in position to win a couple of times, and hasn't pulled it off. Let me say emphatically, this is not all his fault, he is a good player right now, and he doesn't play defense.

Where I stand at the moment is that this is an awful team, with very few players under contract for 2020, who has an overwhelming amount of problems that I don't know our QB can overcome.

But this has so little to do with Kyler Murray, it has more to do with us being 3-7-1, and unlikely to improve significantly on last year. We went from historically awful, to just plainly awful.
As I've stated before, defense was his problem at TT, he got the recruits on defense that LSU, Texas, Oklahoma, Baylor & any other big football school in & around Texas didn't want. His offenses were always near the top in college football, defenses couldn't stop anyone hardly ever. SK hires him, realizing this so he says "I'm gonna hire you a big name DC" he does & KK still has the same problem, his defense still sucks. We're scoring points, KK knows how to call plays. That being said, imagine him at TT scoring 45/game with an Alabama or Clemson defense? He's averaging around 24/game with us, now imagine us with the Patriots or Ravens defense? My whole point is that defense is what's keeping him from winning games, in college & now. If & when we build him a defense (hopefully next season?) Then you will see the wins imo.
 

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As I've stated before, defense was his problem at TT, he got the recruits on defense that LSU, Texas, Oklahoma, Baylor & any other big football school in & around Texas didn't want. His offenses were always near the top in college football, defenses couldn't stop anyone hardly ever. SK hires him, realizing this so he says "I'm gonna hire you a big name DC" he does & KK still has the same problem, his defense still sucks. We're scoring points, KK knows how to call plays. That being said, imagine him at TT scoring 45/game with an Alabama or Clemson defense? He's averaging around 24/game with us, now imagine us with the Patriots or Ravens defense? My whole point is that defense is what's keeping him from winning games, in college & now. If & when we build him a defense (hopefully next season?) Then you will see the wins imo.
We hired a head coach to do half of his job. That's why it's a problem.

In what other industry do you get to lead the organization if you only know anything about half of it?

Sure, the offense is better, but his job title is not offensive coordinator. John Harbaugh hasn't been a top-tier head coach because he made their special teams great and then relied on everyone else to carry the weight.

We'll see what the offseason brings, but Kliff simply doesn't have the connections on this level to bring in a good coaching hire, and do we really want more Joseph out there? Sure, the talent is piss poor, but ugh.

Anyways, this is a thread about KM and I'm derailing it, but you get my point.
 

CardsSunsDbacks

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We hired a head coach to do half of his job. That's why it's a problem.

In what other industry do you get to lead the organization if you only know anything about half of it?

Sure, the offense is better, but his job title is not offensive coordinator. John Harbaugh hasn't been a top-tier head coach because he made their special teams great and then relied on everyone else to carry the weight.

We'll see what the offseason brings, but Kliff simply doesn't have the connections on this level to bring in a good coaching hire, and do we really want more Joseph out there? Sure, the talent is piss poor, but ugh.

Anyways, this is a thread about KM and I'm derailing it, but you get my point.
Very few head coaches in today's NFL manage both sides of the ball. Yes Kliff is the main leader of the team, but we have a defensive coordinator who's job it is to manage the defensive side of the ball. Almost every head coach in the NFL defers to a coordinator to handle at least one side of the field.
 

Cardsfaninlouky

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We hired a head coach to do half of his job. That's why it's a problem.

In what other industry do you get to lead the organization if you only know anything about half of it?

Sure, the offense is better, but his job title is not offensive coordinator. John Harbaugh hasn't been a top-tier head coach because he made their special teams great and then relied on everyone else to carry the weight.

We'll see what the offseason brings, but Kliff simply doesn't have the connections on this level to bring in a good coaching hire, and do we really want more Joseph out there? Sure, the talent is piss poor, but ugh.

Anyways, this is a thread about KM and I'm derailing it, but you get my point.
I get your point but KK isn't experienced enough yet in the NFL to be telling a DC that's experienced, how to do his job, that will come eventually. When we add more talent on the defensive side of the ball next yr, if that doesn't pan out.........? VJ will be out of a job. KK played at TT with the DL coach of the 49ers, Chris......? Can't remember his last name but he may be a possible replacement if VJ doesn't work out next yr? The defensive scheme the 49ers run is doing pretty darn good this yr btw. The understanding this yr was to get KK a big name DC, then let him worry about the defense & let KK worry about calling the plays to score points. I'm pretty sure next season & beyond KK will have more input on the defense. Back to KM. Imo, he is a franchise QB, these last 5 games will show you more proof of that I have no doubt. Have faith man.
 

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Very few head coaches in today's NFL manage both sides of the ball. Yes Kliff is the main leader of the team, but we have a defensive coordinator who's job it is to manage the defensive side of the ball. Almost every head coach in the NFL defers to a coordinator to handle at least one side of the field.
Not even half of the head coaches in the NFL even call their own plays. That's managing both sides of the ball. Arians doesn't even do it anymore.

And I'm not saying that KK calling plays is a bad thing, or completely untenable, but he doesn't seem to have any input on the defensive side of the ball. I'm struggling to find the quote, but it was only a few weeks ago where Kliff said something about trying to give defensive input and giving up on it to let them do their thing. It may have been said in jest, but it was bad.

Yes, it is undoubtedly the DC's job to handle that side of the ball, but the head coach should be savvy with game management, managing his players and staff, and all sides of the game. He has never shown he is capable of that.
 

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In what other industry do you get to lead the organization if you only know anything about half of it?

happens all the time

usually people promoted into the top spot come from leading a function-- so they may be a Sales expert, or a IT expert, or a Finance expert --

in those cases, they are usually supported by people really good in the areas where they don't have expertise ( a guy from IT will need an really good Sales person, etc)
 

Solar7

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happens all the time

usually people promoted into the top spot come from leading a function-- so they may be a Sales expert, or a IT expert, or a Finance expert --

in those cases, they are usually supported by people really good in the areas where they don't have expertise ( a guy from IT will need an really good Sales person, etc)
Maybe in a smaller industry, I guess, but I work in Fortune 500s and every CEO I've ever worked with is pretty freaking adept at all aspects of the business, at least from a top level. The board members of our company would readily oust our CEO if they wanted insight into the direction of marketing efforts and he just said "I don't really know, the CMO takes care of all of that."

And I'm sure KK isn't THAT out of the loop, but right now his believers on the board are taking away all culpability for anything that happens over there, which is the exact reason he got fired at TT. We had the information at hand as an organization that he couldn't handle defense, and he had no plan to resolve that. But we hired him anyways, and are thus far getting exactly what we saw before.

I just can't handle the "he'll learn" mentality when there's five years of proof he couldn't do it in an easier environment.
 

Solar7

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I would think that most bosses/owners delegate. Most, not al , huh, Jerrah?
I would agree with you, but you have to delegate to both sides, and be able to take ownership of and provide solutions for things that might not be your level of expertise. As the boss, you are still accountable, especially if one area is dragging everything down across the organization or your subset of it.
 

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Maybe in a smaller industry, I guess, but I work in Fortune 500s and every CEO I've ever worked with is pretty freaking adept at all aspects of the business, at least from a top level. The board members of our company would readily oust our CEO if they wanted insight into the direction of marketing efforts and he just said "I don't really know, the CMO takes care of all of that."

And I'm sure KK isn't THAT out of the loop, but right now his believers on the board are taking away all culpability for anything that happens over there, which is the exact reason he got fired at TT. We had the information at hand as an organization that he couldn't handle defense, and he had no plan to resolve that. But we hired him anyways, and are thus far getting exactly what we saw before.

I just can't handle the "he'll learn" mentality when there's five years of proof he couldn't do it in an easier environment.

How can he be culpable when HE DIDN'T EVEN PICK THE DC?

The defensive problems are a combination of severely lacking talent at a few positions exacerbated by scheme. Its fixable though.
 

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How can he be culpable when HE DIDN'T EVEN PICK THE DC?

The defensive problems are a combination of severely lacking talent at a few positions exacerbated by scheme. Its fixable though.
He's culpable in that he shouldn't have been hired in the first place with his lack of experience and myopic focus on offense.

I don't blame him, necessarily, I'd have taken the job in his position too, and if someone was offering up that I only needed to be responsible for half of the work, I'd be even more excited. Good for him. Not good for Keim or the Cardinals' record.
 

DVontel

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He's culpable in that he shouldn't have been hired in the first place with his lack of experience and myopic focus on offense.

I don't blame him, necessarily, I'd have taken the job in his position too, and if someone was offering up that I only needed to be responsible for half of the work, I'd be even more excited. Good for him. Not good for Keim or the Cardinals' record.
You would’ve hired McCarthy huh
 

Solar7

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You would’ve hired McCarthy huh
I certainly wouldn't have been up in arms about it. We've discussed this in other threads, but while I wouldn't have been a huge fan of a retread, I would have at least liked someone with some NFL experience. I didn't like Caldwell as an option, and Gase would have been a tough pill to swallow, but Dan Campbell, Eric Bienemy, and McCarthy would have been decent. That's just with guys we expressed interest in.

Even the AZ Republic said we should reach out to LaFleur.
 

SoonerLou

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As I've stated before, defense was his problem at TT, he got the recruits on defense that LSU, Texas, Oklahoma, Baylor & any other big football school in & around Texas didn't want. His offenses were always near the top in college football, defenses couldn't stop anyone hardly ever. SK hires him, realizing this so he says "I'm gonna hire you a big name DC" he does & KK still has the same problem, his defense still sucks. We're scoring points, KK knows how to call plays. That being said, imagine him at TT scoring 45/game with an Alabama or Clemson defense? He's averaging around 24/game with us, now imagine us with the Patriots or Ravens defense? My whole point is that defense is what's keeping him from winning games, in college & now. If & when we build him a defense (hopefully next season?) Then you will see the wins imo.
Eh..Baylor is one of the best teams in the country this year and they won just 1 game a couple of years ago. Tech had just as much or more talent.
He's culpable in that he shouldn't have been hired in the first place with his lack of experience and myopic focus on offense.

I don't blame him, necessarily, I'd have taken the job in his position too, and if someone was offering up that I only needed to be responsible for half of the work, I'd be even more excited. Good for him. Not good for Keim or the Cardinals' record.
I disagree with you a lot, but also get your perspective.

Because the unforunate reality is Kliff was such an off the wall hire that expectations were going to be higher maybe unfair. His offense was supposed to be so ahead of the game that it could cover for other areas. Overall we've been pretty good on offense and terrible on defense. He's working with a hand tied behind his back with Keim, but then again he's never hired without him.

I think Kliff has been solid since the first month of the season. However, he's gotta be held accountable for that because he didn't prepare the offense with preseason. Cardinals defense was on the field too long against the Lions, offense didn't score enough in the redzone against the Ravens (held them to 23!), Seahawks dismantled our offense, etc.

Pick up a couple wins to start the season and who knows how that momentum carries on later in the season. Maybe Kliff has more confidence to tell Vance when and when not to be aggressive. Maybe he's not overthinking and calling a timeout against the 49ers, or afraid to put the game away.

Its such a slim margin in winning and losing in this league. Could very well have lost to the Bengals, Giants and Falcons. Could have very well beat the 49ers twice and Ravens.

Here's hoping Kliff improves his situational coaching. Here's hoping Keim improves as a GM. Here's hoping Kyler can get better at redzone execution/not taking negative plays.

Right now I think Keim (Kliff to a lesser degree) just banking on Kyler being a superstar and overcoming the issues.

For all three sake I'm hoping that comes true. The good thing is we now have evidence that performance wise he's shown the signs that he can be.
 

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Kyler Murray1
Individual Rank: Bhanpuri: 11 | Blair: 13 | Filice: 8 | Parr: 10

2019 stats: 11 games | 64.6 pct | 2,703 pass yds | 6.9 ypa | 14 pass TD | 5 INT | 418 rush yds | 3 rush TD | 0 fumbles lost

Blair: While the Final Word on every quarterback drafted in recent years changes drastically from week to week, Murray continues to develop in the background, allowed to make strides and stumble as a rookie in the relative anonymity of the desert. We'll see if Murray, coming off his Week 12 bye, is able to press a Rams defense that might still be trying to figure out where the ball is after getting run over by Lamar Jackson. In the meantime, in the spirit of the developing theme unifying all my QBI blurbs (don't judge quarterbacks too early), consider this: Murray, who has thrown just one pick since Week 4, has a chance to become just the third quarterback in NFL history to finish with a passer rating of 90-plus while throwing fewer than eight picks as a rookie. The other two to do that? Dak Prescott (23:4 TD-to-INT ratio, 104.9 passer rating in 2016) and Robert Griffin III (20:5 TD-to-INT ratio, 102.4 passer rating in 2012).

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap30...dethrones-russell-wilson?campaign=Twitter_atn
 

DVontel

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I certainly wouldn't have been up in arms about it. We've discussed this in other threads, but while I wouldn't have been a huge fan of a retread, I would have at least liked someone with some NFL experience. I didn't like Caldwell as an option, and Gase would have been a tough pill to swallow, but Dan Campbell, Eric Bienemy, and McCarthy would have been decent. That's just with guys we expressed interest in.

Even the AZ Republic said we should reach out to LaFleur.
How do we know Dan Campbell isn’t just a product of the offensive genius of Sean Payton or HOFer Drew Brees? Same with Eric Bienemy with Andy Reid & Patrick Mahomes? I think it’s obvious to the consensus now that McCarthy was a product of Rodgers. The fact that he was only able to lead a team with one of the best talents to ever play the QB position to just one SB with it being in spite of him is just....sad. Yea, you’re probably going to say “well that’s still 1 more SB than our franchise history” but we also never had one of the greatest talents to ever play QB(until now, ha).

Some NFL experience is not good NFL experience. Evident by Mike McCoy or a Hue Jackson. I liked the Kliff hire because it was out of the box & not the same good ole boys league type of hire.
 

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