Leinart Contract/Negotiations Discussion

[Russ Smith]

Don't you think that if the published reports about what the Cardinals were offering were so patently false, Rod or Denny would come on and say "That's ridiculous"?

Not necessarily, I haven't seen Condon calling the reports of what he's asking for ridiculous either. Both sides leak information that they feel is beneficial to them, if the other side acknowledges those leaks, even to deny them, it doesn't really do them any good.

For the first time I'm now a bit concerned, I read something on a USC board that implied that Leinart has changed from I really want to be in camp, we're just ironing out the guaranteed money, to this could take awhile they're playing hardball on us. This is from 2 guys who post regularly on the SC football board and have direct access to current USC players. Hopefully he's just frustrated, but the comments sounds like his agent is telling him to get what we want, this could take longer than we thought.

 

[lobo]

Not necessarily, I haven't seen Condon calling the reports of what he's asking for ridiculous either. Both sides leak information that they feel is beneficial to them, if the other side acknowledges those leaks, even to deny them, it doesn't really do them any good.

For the first time I'm now a bit concerned, I read something on a USC board that implied that Leinart has changed from I really want to be in camp, we're just ironing out the guaranteed money, to this could take awhile they're playing hardball on us. This is from 2 guys who post regularly on the SC football board and have direct access to current USC players. Hopefully he's just frustrated, but the comments sounds like his agent is telling him to get what we want, this could take longer than we thought.

as i mentioned as well as russ...both sides will use very carefull language in leaking information when they want to...even the two guys on the SC site are spoonfed info in a carefull manner...let's all save some electricity and cool off...we cannot do anything about this...we will see who blinks first very soon...the thin OL at the moment is a much much bigger issue...someone mentioned the new LA franchise...funny i had an oliver stone thought about that too....that could be why he might want an early out....time will tell...but i guess they need a team in LA first!!

 

[red desert]

My feeling (not based on any first hand info - just my gut) is that Leinart and Condon are on the wrong side of this battle. In a way, this minimizes what good karma he earned by staying for his senior season. And maybe calls into question his true motive for staying, and the level of regret he may be living with. I don't know. This move by them, on some level, just doesn't make sense.

Some on this board have stated that Denny never calls out a player in public. Okay, that's true of most coaches. But Denny's comments about Leinart do make me wonder about Condon's demands.

One thing that caught my eye was how Leinart reacted when he wasn't selected in the top three. He left the ESPN room. Others that have been in similar situations have acted with, well... more grace. Grace under pressure Hemingway wrote about. I do wonder how Leinart would have performed/acted as QB of, say, Vanderbilt?

I know, I digress... but his holdout does stir these thoughts up, in my mind anyway.

 

[Codeofhammurabi]

My feeling (not based on any first hand info - just my gut) is that Leinart and Condon are on the wrong side of this battle. In a way, this minimizes what good karma he earned by staying for his senior season. And maybe calls into question his true motive for staying, and the level of regret he may be living with. I don't know. This move by them, on some level, just doesn't make sense.

Some on this board have stated that Denny never calls out a player in public. Okay, that's true of most coaches. But Denny's comments about Leinart do make me wonder about Condon's demands.

One thing that caught my eye was how Leinart reacted when he wasn't selected in the top three. He left the ESPN room. Others that have been in similar situations have acted with, well... more grace. Grace under pressure Hemingway wrote about. I do wonder how Leinart would have performed/acted as QB of, say, Vanderbilt?

I know, I digress... but his holdout does stir these thoughts up, in my mind anyway.

I heard Leinart say in an interview that he would not have attended the draft if he knew that he would have went that low.

 

[Mainstreet]

I'm not a diehard Cards fan but on TV sports tonight (I believe channel 3) the sportscaster said the length of the contract was not the problem with Leinart but the guaranteed money. They mentioned 10 million but I'm not sure if it is what the Cards are offering or what Leinart's camp is wanting.

I'm sure it's nothing new but I thought I would throw it out there.

 

[vinnymac]

considering that cutler is gaunteed 11 million, that 10 million is has to be a false report.

 

[Mainstreet]

I just listened to channel 12 sports with Bruce Cooper tonight at 10:30 PM. He said the Cardinals were offering Leinart 13 million but that Leinart was holding out for Vince Young money of 26 million.

I'm not sure how well Bruce Cooper is connected or he was just floating his thoughts out there. However, he did say it like he knew where the signing problem was with Leinart and that both sides would have to give.

If this is true, it sounds to me that the Cards already have more than a fair offer on the table.

 

[sundevilscott]

There is no effing way he deserves any more then 14.5 mil guarenteed and that is probably more then it should really be. This could get really ugly. IF he trully is asking for that then this is all on him.

He was the #10 pick not #3.

 

[Redsz]

That is flat out idiotic if Condon is looking for that type of money at #10.

 

[Solar7]

Call me crazy, but I say he signs today.

 

[Mrh182]

Call me crazy, but I say he signs today.

Not if he's honestly looking for 26 mil

 

[BACH]

As do we all. Which makes it all the more frustrating to see us take 2 steps forward (edge, re-signings, and so on) only to take 1 step back (2 straight years of week long hold outs, still have key depth issues when you still have 8 Mill in the bank when there were nice priced players to be had in both DB's and LB's).

People tend to get pissed off the most when they get a glimpse of what things could be. Kind of like winning the lottery (Edge) only to find out you owe the government (depth and one injury to the OL) more then half of it, your still way better off but your still pissed.

I agree it's suspect that we're still 8M under the cap, while being very thin at several positions. The team could have brought in a couple of more FA's but chose not to. I think the are several reasons for that, and Bill Sr. being cheap is just one of the factors in the equation NOT the whole story IMO. I don't believe it's a s simply as everyone here is saying (either Bill Sr. being cheap or No OTs available)

Possible factors for this situation:
- Bill Sr. closed the book after the Edge signing and chose not to bring in more players for depth.

- Graves is a huge supporter of the Philly Model and have sold that concept of running the team to the Bidwells and partially to Green. One of the key rules of the Philly Model is never to hurt your cap situation in the future, so signing "over the hill players" to long contracts is a no-no. If the model was followed during this off-season, only 4 players were options in FA. (Young, quality players) Hutch, Bentley, M. Brown and Kyle Kosier. Bentley was never an option, since he wanted to go to Cleveland. Neither was Hutch, since Seattle never would allowed us to sign him. That leaves Kosier and Brown.... We signed Brown almost immidiately in FA, and the Cowboys did the same with Kosier. We did sign the one of only two players "accepted" under the Philly-Model. Yes, I know that Ashworth was available, BUT $4.5M a year for a mediocre player that have missed 15games to injury over the last two seasons.. PLEASE!

- The FA market for OL and S was terrible.

- How good is Fred Wakefield really? The truth is, that we don't know, but the coaches probably do. I think Wakefield did okay last year playing a position that he had never played before, and according to several in the media and HArdy Brown (who clearly is the biggest OL expert on this board) Wakefield has developed tremendously. Is it enough? I don't know. It might be enough to be a very solid back-up to Ross (we still don't know if he misses any time in the regular season). Well, if Wakefield has developed enough to be a solid back-up, why sign anyone else? There isn't anybody out there that's better now and there possibly weren't anybody better in the off-season.

- Veteran players take up roster space. It could be a very calculated decision not to bring in veterans for depth. If we were to sign a couple of veterans for depth we would perhaps get more depth short term, but hurt the team long-term. The team has had 4 awesome drafts in a rows and there are a lot of very talented young players. These players probably won't help the team as much a a veteran player right now, but the situation could be different next year or even during this season as the young players develop. Is Lincoln Kennedy really that big of an upgrade over e.g. Wakefield that he's worth taking a roster spot from Elton Brown or Leckey. I don't think so.....

- The available cap space could be there to extent Dockett, Dansby, Hayes or Macklin during the season.

I honestly believe that the management couldn't have solved the current OT situation in the off-season, but I also think that they could have solved the LB situation.

 

[EuroCard]

Don't you think that if the published reports about what the Cardinals were offering were so patently false, Rod or Denny would come on and say "That's ridiculous"?

Never will happen. The Cards have a policy of never discussing contracts and contract negotiations. They never have, they never will. It is an excellent stand to take and deserving of respect. No need to read anything into the unsubstantiated romours either because they expect the same level of consideration from those on the other side of the fence and nearly always get it.

 

[EuroCard]

Go back and read this thread and you'll understand where I'm coming from:

http://www.arizonasportsfans.com/vb/showthread.php?t=65301&highlight=salary

To summarize: While we "technically" end up utilizing most of the cap space, we do so in a way that ensures on a year to year basis we're one of the cheapest teams in the league - I thought this was supposed to change...

I read the thread, there is a lot of nonsense in it. There is a difference in policy that determins how teams are using their cap space, but it works out the same.

The Cards policy is to renegotiate contracts sooner than other teams do, and to do it during the seaspon using residual cap space. This in effect is a money saver, because delaying it to the offseason, and utilizing the cap money for that year would result in more expensive contracts. there is an additional benefit to negotiating contracts in season as players will not slack of due to post contract euphoria.

There are arguments for and against the benefits of spending the cap money at different times of the year and in different ways. The thread you pointed to has some major flaws in many of the arguments. Re-read it yourself, you will cringe at some of it. However, several ways of spending are identified and all have their merits.

 

[kerouac9]

Never will happen. The Cards have a policy of never discussing contracts and contract negotiations. They never have, they never will. It is an excellent stand to take and deserving of respect. No need to read anything into the unsubstantiated romours either because they expect the same level of consideration from those on the other side of the fence and nearly always get it.

Really? Then where is everyone getting the idea that #7 wants Vince Young-type money? Also, Rod Graves came on the air and was quoted saying that the Cards were offering Leinart "a lot more money" than Jay Cutler got at the pick below him.

What the Cards say and what the Cards do are often two very different things.

The contract negotiations now have nothing to do with the rookie cap. Thay doesn't matter anymore, since a lot of first rounders don't get anything in signing bonus. It's all about guaranteed money, which is roster bonuses and guaranteed salary.

The Cards have five more days of camp left. Is it time to start panicking?

 

[40yearfan]

when we can claim that we've won 3 of 4 Syper Bowls or been to the NFC Title game for 4 of the last 5 years, then we can say - hey, we do it like the Eagles and Pats. Until then, it's foolish to make such comparisons because those teams do what they do and they've PROVEN the ability to do so AND win. We continue to do the same thing AND SUCK YEAR AFTER YEAR. That's why it's problematic.

Sorry Cheesy, but you gotta start somewhere and getting you cap situation in hand is the very first place you need to start if you want to build a team that will last longer than 1 or 2 years. The Cards have handled their cap situation excellentely in the last 2 to 3 years and continue to do so. You cannot become a perennial play-off team without this. The second thing you need to do is have good drafts and not waste any picks. This is also being done for the last 2 to 3 years and hopefully the results of those drafts will start to pay off this year. The third thing is to get good serviceable players from FA. The book is still out on this, but hopefully Edge, Okefor and Barry will put this into the positive corner also.

I am amazed at how with all the good the Cards have been doing for the past 3 years and have really worked at becoming a professional, well run NFL team, that some of the fans won't cut them some slack and give them the benefit of a doubt because they can't get one first rounder signed. Every time I hear someone say "same old Cardinals", I want to ask where they have been the last 3 years.

 

[kerouac9]

Jurecki has turned on the Cards' front office this morning. Says that they're $1-$1.3 million apart in negotiations.

By the way, only two guys in the entire draft who are still holdouts. These aren't the "same ol' Cardinals". Remember that, guys.

 

[Russ Smith]

If you read the negotiations thread there's a couple of articles in there that imply the Cards aren't guaranteeing as much in case of injury. I HAVE to think that this is a major sticking point and I hate to say it, I usually side with the player, but in this case I would side with the Cards. Look at Leinart's history, already had shoulder and elbow surgery, wears a big knee brace, had a couple of obvious concussions last year. If I were the Cards I'd be concerned enough about his health to "protect" myself in the contract.

Now the PFT stuff about him going back into the draft next year is at this point way premature and just silly idle speculation, Leinart already waited a year for a payday and lost a substantial amount of money in the process, I seriously doubt he's going to take that risk again. I don't think we'd ever let it get that far, if we decided he was unsignable, we'd simply trade his rights before the draft.

 

[JeffGollin]

The Valley appears to be angry this morning.

Judging from the listener commentary on the MJ and Bickley Show, a great deal of fan anger is being expressed this morning with a lot of anti-Bidwill ("same old same old") sentiment being resurrected.

 

[joeshmo]

The Valley appears to be angry this morning.

Judging from the listener commentary on the MJ and Bickley Show, a great deal of fan anger is being expressed this morning with a lot of anti-Bidwill ("same old same old") sentiment being resurrected.

As they should be.

 

[JeffGollin]

Sounds to me that the Leinart Camp would accept $12 mil (genuinely) guaranteed money over 6 years.

Cards are apparently offering slightly less than $12 mil (and less than Mike Williams got at the same slot last year). And apparently, a couple of million of that money is "weasel dollars" (i.e. impossible incentives, injury what-ifs etc.)

Here's my problem. In terms of incremental merchandise and ticket sales, Leinart is worth multiples of the money he's requesting.

Example - I was all pumped up about to place an order for a few logo'd Cardinal warmup tee shirts. Guess what? I've decided I don't really need those tees. I've got plenty of other tees. I think I'll save the money. Multiply me by several thousand and how much money and goodwill are the Bidwills pissing away by being penny wise and pound foolish.

Spend the extra couple of (pro-rated) million already and don't get cute!

 

[kerouac9]

If you read the negotiations thread there's a couple of articles in there that imply the Cards aren't guaranteeing as much in case of injury. I HAVE to think that this is a major sticking point and I hate to say it, I usually side with the player, but in this case I would side with the Cards. Look at Leinart's history, already had shoulder and elbow surgery, wears a big knee brace, had a couple of obvious concussions last year. If I were the Cards I'd be concerned enough about his health to "protect" myself in the contract.

Now the PFT stuff about him going back into the draft next year is at this point way premature and just silly idle speculation, Leinart already waited a year for a payday and lost a substantial amount of money in the process, I seriously doubt he's going to take that risk again. I don't think we'd ever let it get that far, if we decided he was unsignable, we'd simply trade his rights before the draft.

Maybe, but when you're talking about the draft, and about a player who you drafted in the Top 10, then you have to bite the bullet and offer him a slotted contract. If you think he's a health risk, then you do what the other teams do and drop him down your draft board.

It's one thing to take a criminal and limit a team's liability to off-the-field problems, but you drafted a guy who's going to put his body at great risk 16+ weeks a season. You took him in the Top 10. It's too late to look for injury protection.

 

[MaoTosiFanClub]

I am amazed at how with all the good the Cards have been doing for the past 3 years and have really worked at becoming a professional, well run NFL team, that some of the fans won't cut them some slack and give them the benefit of a doubt because they can't get one first rounder signed. Every time I hear someone say "same old Cardinals", I want to ask where they have been the last 3 years.

Where have I been the last three years? Watching this team under the new regime go 4-12, 6-10, and 5-11 while failing to get draft picks in camp on time in all of those years. Sorry, but those things reek of same old Cardinals.

And this is where someone will chime in "yeah, well they re-sign their own free agents" or "they now offer creative contracts" as if those personnel decisions are actually worth bragging about when the rest of the NFL has been conducting business in those ways for years.

 

[Treesquid PhD]

Sorry Cheesy, but you gotta start somewhere and getting you cap situation in hand is the very first place you need to start if you want to build a team that will last longer than 1 or 2 years. The Cards have handled their cap situation excellentely in the last 2 to 3 years and continue to do so. You cannot become a perennial play-off team without this. The second thing you need to do is have good drafts and not waste any picks. This is also being done for the last 2 to 3 years and hopefully the results of those drafts will start to pay off this year. The third thing is to get good serviceable players from FA. The book is still out on this, but hopefully Edge, Okefor and Barry will put this into the positive corner also.

I am amazed at how with all the good the Cards have been doing for the past 3 years and have really worked at becoming a professional, well run NFL team, that some of the fans won't cut them some slack and give them the benefit of a doubt because they can't get one first rounder signed. Every time I hear someone say "same old Cardinals", I want to ask where they have been the last 3 years.

Just a hunch on my end, but if the cardinals keep churing out those sub 7 win seasons I think you are going to continue to be amazed how many fans think these are the same ol Cardinals.

Cardinals get the award for managing the cap, U R teh WINNAR!!!

 

[arthurracoon]

*sigh*

the cards better get him in soon, especially if hes only asking for 12 mil