Leinart Contract/Negotiations Discussion

[Cheesebeef]

Where? Did you even watch the draft? They asked he on camera in the green room? I had both ESPN and NFL network on DVR until about a week after the draft. I think even ESPN had their "money financial guy talking about purely the dollars that Lienart lost out on and how he will look to recoup it in contract and sponsorships. Numerous sites have hinted at this issue.

Let me be clear I am in no way suggesting that this is the reason for the hold up since I have no more info than any nor do I really care to look it up at this point. It is common knowledge that he lost money and it is reasonable to assume that his agent will work every angle to get some of that back. I don't blame them for taking that stance and in all honesty it really isn't hurting anyone right now that he is at home. The only people being affected by this are the fans. Leinarts already bought his 2 million dollar home and I doubt he is footing the bill on any meals so he will be ok.

As for the team.. he will be #2 come the first or second week of the season and all will be forgotten. The cards will... well... be the cards. No matter what they do (short of winning a super bowl) will always be labeled cheap. Rightfully so in alot of cases, but wrongfully in a number of cases. Why? Because Bill B is not the type of person to call a press conference to defend himself. Speculation will always run rampant.

speculation doesn't run rampant by itself. There's a reason the "cheap" moniker sticks to Bidwill - it's called lack of depth, abundance of cap space, first round holdouts and year after year of horrrendous teams. When all of this actually changes, perception WILL change and it won't take a Super Bowl or a press conference to do it. Look at the Bengals for example - just THREE years, they were actually THE laughingstock of football, yes, even over THE CARDINALS! They were called cheap, inept, everything they should have been - then, what happened? They started drafting well, paying their players, getting better coaches and... THEY STARTED WINNING. They haven't won jack squat in terms of titles and they didn't hold press conferences, but there is no doubt "the same old Bengals" matra doesn't exist anymore.

Winning cures all - period - but winning comes from doing things right which it remains to be seen if the Cardinals can ever do.

Again - the Bengals reversed 20 YEARS of complete ineptitude in one season - going from 2-14 to 8-8, to 8-6 (and headed towaqrds the playoffs when their starting QB went down for the season) to a division title. It doesn't take THAT long to reverse the depths a team might be in and as long as Sr. is running the show, I think it'll continue to be a problem.

 

[AzCards21]

RC, the Cards had the opportunity to banish the "same ol' Cards" mantra forever this offseason, but they bungled it, and now the slogan is back out on the airwaves.

The more it comes back, the harder it is to kill.

As much as it pains me I have to agree. It looked like the Cards were rocketing up the popularity ladder and should have tried harder to make sure this didn't happen. At this point allowing any of the same old cards stories out is not good.

Perception is reality.

 

[clif]

See, this is where I depart from that, and I bet that Condon and Leinart are professional to depart from that, as well. It is not reasonable to assume that you should get Top 5 money when you're the 10th overall pick. The way that he'll make the money back is by outperforming his draft status and getting a new deal.

It is common knowledge that he lost money, and I bet that stung. But it is not "common knowledge" that he's trying to make it all back on his first contract. That's insanity, and Leinart and Condon are not insane.

You don't think Leinart's camp is like: "Matt was projected #1 pick last year and due to his willingness to go back to USC to hone his skills and is worth a little more than his 10th pick status. Being that he is by all accounts going to be the future franchise QB we think he should be paid closer to the #3 pick than the #11 pick." Or something like that

 

[Sandan]

I've given you a pass for a long time for your schoolgirl crush on Rod Graves because he talked to you in the hall after PE, but this is getting pretty silly.

K9 I'm trying really hard not to get ticked off by your comment but am failing.

Why do you descend into a pissing match over Rod Graves every time ? I only come back when you post inaccuracies. Frankly as I've said over and over again, the truth here is probably in the middle somewhere, why do you decend into Gravers bashing all the time ?

• FACT: Rod Graves was, as you say 50% of the team that brought in DG
• FACT: Rod Graves was not the GM in 2001
• FACT: Many teams fail to get 1st rounders in for the start of TC
• FACT: You have no idea who was responsilbe for talent evaluation while Mac was here

So any team where the GM fails to get a player in by the start of camp is a failure ? I suggest you list the failures by team for the last 4 years and see how Rod Graves stacks up on this metric.

The last FACT: You are rapidly adding me to the list of folks you have ticked off with your offensive comments. If you don't like the fact that I have a totaly different opinion of Rod garves than you tough. Unlike you I've talked to the man, what have you to go on other than uninformed speculation ?

 

[kerouac9]

Rod Graves isn't the general manager now, is he, nidan? Looking at his Bio, this is what it has to say about Rod Graves' role in the organization:

Graves, 47, is responsible for all facets of the Cardinals’ football operations. He has provided leadership in hiring, planning, budgeting, player acquisitions, negotiations, and scouting. He has represented the Cardinals on a number of NFL committees. He currently serves on the board of directors of National Football Scouting, Inc. and National Invitational Camp, Inc. (Indy Combine).

Now, to me, actions speak louder than words. As the "person responsible for all facets of football operations, a position that I'm pretty sure he was promoted to in 2000, what has been his record?

I'm sure that Rod Graves is a successful person and a great guy to hang out with. You've obviously been very happy that he's sat down and talked to you during practices. Heck, I'd be flattered and defend the guy, too.

But his job performance by any metric has been horrible. I'm sure that Norv Turner, Mike Tice, Dennis Erickson, Matt Millen, and a ton of other guys are great, kind people to know. From what I've heard in interviews, Isiah Thomas is a blast to talk to and hang out with. It just hasn't really prevented him from being a total disaster as a general manager.

Rod Graves negotiates the contracts for the high draft picks. That's the one time that he's in the spotlight. The last four years, he's failed to do that before camp starts. The last two years, he's failed to do that within the first week of camp. I notice that you haven't addressed these FACTs.

How many teams have had four first-round holdouts in a row, nidan? You're the one saying it happens all the time. Prove your point.

By the way, if Rod Graves wasn't evaluating talent with Mac before the 2001 draft, you have to wonder what he actually did for those 19 years when that was his only job:

Rod began his career in professional football in 1982 as a regional scout for the Philadelphia Stars of the United States Football League. He joined the National Football League in 1984 as a regional scout for the Chicago Bears, a position he held until promoted to director of college scouting in 1993. He was promoted in 1994 to director of player personnel.

 

[Pariah]

Perception is reality.

This is the worst cliche ever, IMO.

Perception is NOT reality.

 

[joeshmo]

[*]FACT: Many teams fail to get 1st rounders in for the start of TC

Lets expand on that fact a little because yours is misleading. Yes half of the 1st rounders do miss the start of training camp. But of that 50% maybe 2 or 3 miss more then a week. And we have had that 2 or 3 far to often for it to be a bleep on the radar screen.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Unlike you I've talked to the man, what have you to go on other than uninformed speculation ?

let's see - I'd say being the only guy involved at the management level on four consecutive awful teams could bring you to conclusion that K9 has.

And if Graves was letting Mac call on the shots n his last draft - I'd say that makes him look even worse. You don't let a guy, who hasn't proven the ability to do/coach diddly squat and is looking at getting his walking papers in a year hold the key to your team's future. That's just outright stupidity. But I guess if what you're saying is true, we can thank Mac, not Rod Graves for getting Q, right?

 

[Sandan]

I agree but it seems we have far less problems that we used to have

 

[Sandan]

This is the worst cliche ever, IMO.

Perception is NOT reality.

You don't work in in sales or politics do you ?

 

[kerouac9]

Really? Because it seems to me that this team is still coming off a single-digit win season, with a below-average offensive line, and a defense that can't stop the run and can't defend the pass.

That sounds a lot like the team that Dave McGinnis fielded when Rod Graves came into town.

 

[Pariah]

You don't work in in sales or politics do you ?

I work in PR, an industry where you might think I'd agree with the statement because I deal in changing and influencing perceptions. But, it simply isn't true.

 

[Wild Card]

See, this is where I depart from that, and I bet that Condon and Leinart are professional to depart from that, as well. It is not reasonable to assume that you should get Top 5 money when you're the 10th overall pick. The way that he'll make the money back is by outperforming his draft status and getting a new deal.

It is common knowledge that he lost money, and I bet that stung. But it is not "common knowledge" that he's trying to make it all back on his first contract. That's insanity, and Leinart and Condon are not insane.

K9:

Maybe it's just me, but I think it's ironic that a former 10th-rounder like Tom Condon (1974, 250th overall, KC Chiefs, G, Boston College), has wound up all these years later negotiating multi-million dollar contracts for first-round bonus babies. After having spent eleven seasons getting beat up by NFL d-linemen, though, I'm guessing Condon thinks facing off over conference tables with the likes of Rod Graves is a walk in the park. Pays better, too.

WC

 

[Sandan]

Don't know enough about PR but in sales it does seem to be true.

 

[BACH]

Rod Graves isn't the general manager now, is he, nidan?

Please....

Graves is VP of football operations - the same thing as GM just with a different name.

Ozzie Newsome is regarded as one of the best GMs in the league. Guess what. He isn't a GM. His titel says so!!!

Weak, K9! Weak!

 

[Mainstreet]

I really wanted to get to try to get into the Cards this season and still hope too... although I try to believe every year.

IMO, based upon my limited knowledge of NFL negoatiations, I would give Leinart my best contract offer... perhaps 14-16 million guaranteed, make it known to the public, and set a time frame for him to accept this offer. This prolonged negotiations is ridiculous and if he doesn't sign soon he will not be of any use to the Cardinals this year anyway. Then if he does not want to accept this offer, start looking for a backup QB.

In other words, it is now time to put all the cards on the table so to speak, so the public can see things for what they really are without the spin.

If Leinart's only signing hangup is guaranteed money give him more than a fair offer and if he is not willing to accept... move on.

This should be the fans year to enjoy the team, signing the Edge and moving into a new stadium. If Hollywood does not want to accept a more than fair offer, I don't want him any more than Kelly Stouffer. However, if the Cards are to blame for this fiasco... shame on them and they will be the first to get my condemnation.

 

[kerouac9]

Please....

Graves is VP of football operations - the same thing as GM just with a different name.

Ozzie Newsome is regarded as one of the best GMs in the league. Guess what. He isn't a GM. His titel says so!!!

Weak, K9! Weak!

Actually, Bach, that is his title.

General Manager & Executive Vice President

Nice try, though.

 

[Pariah]

Don't know enough about PR but in sales it does seem to be true.

I realize this is a HUGE tangent--but it's simply not a truism in business or any other facet of life. Prior to getting caught, the perception was that Enron was an uber-successful company. Was that reality?

And, as it pertains to this conversation, maybe perception is that Graves is a moron, but by most personal accounts, this doesn't seem to hold up. But, if perception were indeed reality he would be.

 

[AzCards21]

This is the worst cliche ever, IMO.

Perception is NOT reality.

At times the perception of a club can be more damaging than the reality though and that's my point. How many F/A's might have been looking our way thinking this would be a hell of a place to play. Then seeing this and turning to wtf was I thinking!? They're still scrooges!

Just saying, perception CAN be more relavent than reality at times.

 

[MadCardDisease]

How about this as perception:

Making Edge the highest paid RB in the NFL!

 

[BACH]

Actually, Bach, that is his title.



Nice try, though.

My Mistake. GM has been added to his titel. The reason I used him as an example is because MB is believed to have copied the organisation after the Ravens' organisation, which is why Graves has the titel of VP - not GM.

But here's another example. Scott Pioli isn't a GM either....

 

[kerouac9]

My Mistake. GM has been added to his titel. The reason I used him as an example is because MB is believed to have copied the organisation after the Ravens' organisation, which is why Graves has the titel of VP - not GM.

But here's another example. Scott Pioli isn't a GM either....

I looked that one up, too, because I figured that's where you'd go next. But he's only in charge of player personnel. VP of player personnel is actually his title. Here's his job description:

As vice president of player personnel, Pioli's responsibilities include overseeing the college draft and free agency, as well as serving as the Patriots' primary contract negotiator. Since he arrived in New England, he has shown a propensity for finding veteran free agents who can contribute and play important roles in building playoff-contending teams. Since 2000, the Patriots have signed dozens of veteran free agents. In 2001 alone, the team’s class of 17 veteran free agents produced two team captains, seven full-time starters, three special teams specialists and two veteran nickel backs. The veteran leadership was critical to the Patriots' success that year, as the team completed its divisional worst-to first turnaround and set the then-franchise record of nine consecutive victories to close out the season as Super Bowl Champions. His successes that season earned him league-wide recognition as one of the best young personnel evaluators in the game.

It's a little more limited than Rod Graves, isn't it? And notice that Pioli manages to find solid groups of free agents so that the Patriots are perennially one of the deepest teams in the NFL--especially along the offensive line. And winning three Super Bowls in five years buys you a lot of respect.

Do you really want to use Pioli as the measuring stick against which Rod Graves' performance is measured? Dion Branch is a holdout, but when was the last time they had a draft pick hold out? Richard Seymour held out last training camp a little bit, but then he got some more money for himself, as well.

 

[Sandan]

[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Rod Graves begins his 10th season with the Cardinals and his 23rd season in the National Football League. Graves joined the Cardinals in June of 1997 as Assistant to the President. He was promoted to the position of Vice President of Football Operations following the 2002 season.

[/FONT]

Per cardinals web site, so he has been the VP of Football operations since Jan 2003

 

[kerouac9]

Per cardinals web site, so he has been the VP of Football operations since Jan 2003

Okay, so is he or is he not, ultimately, responsible for the debacle of the 2003 draft? He was the guy in charge. If he determined to delegate that authority, doesn't that make him responsible?

Do we really need to go through Rod Graves' roster of atrocity that he's done to this team since January 2003 before you can admit that while Rod Graves is a good guy, he's been below-average in the performance of his responsibilities in comparison to others who perform a similar function for other teams?

 

[40yearfan]

Jay Cutler, and he missed one morning of practices.

Your saying Cutler was selected 8 or 9 picks below where he was projected to go?