Leinart Contract/Negotiations Discussion

[joeshmo]

I think he has 6 1st AND 2nd rounders. That is probably what Cheese heard.

 

[ajcardfan]

But he got slotted Gauranteed money.

The rest was unattainable incentives, making the 60 Mill look far more then Fitz will actually see.

Which was exactly what I expected to see with Leinart. But, supposedly the Cards are insisting on protections that could result in a gaurantee less than the slot. And, for an amount that would slot above Cutler's but does not take into account the 6 vs. 5 year deal. I did not think the slot guarantee would be an issue from the Cards side of things at all. If it is the case that it is, then this contract negotiation was a step backwards for the front office.

 

[clif]

After all these years. You mean like last years more then a week long hold out.

Quite honestly I really don't remember Rolle's holdout being an issue. Didn't he start in week one? Didn't he play in a couple of preseason games? I honestly don't remember it being a huge issue. I'm sure on this site and maybe on the official board, but I don't remember people walking around town talking about it.

Pretty much the same thing here. Outside this little world of all things Cardinals not many people are talking about Matt Lienart the holdout or the cheap ass Bidwills. The average football fan in Arizona is talking about the stadium opening and football starting up. Yes I know there are upset fans who want to slap Bill B, but in a matter of a few weeks this will all be forgotten.

 

[kerouac9]

Oh please, are you actaully suggesting that Cutler was expecting to be drafted in the top 5.

Cutler was invited to sit in the ESPN green room during the draft, and multiple draft forcasts had him going in the Top 5.

Laugh now, but that's how it was. Whether or not Cutler expected it is something else, but this "Leinart wants to be paid as if he were drafted 3rd overall" is just something that Cardinal apologists have been repeating as if it were true.

If Condon's the source of the leaks, it's not hard to tell that his demands are reasonable.

 

[Pariah]

'kay, I'm going to lunch now. I'd like it if I came back to news of Leinart signing.

Thanks!

 

[clif]

Cutler was invited to sit in the ESPN green room during the draft, and multiple draft forcasts had him going in the Top 5.

Laugh now, but that's how it was. Whether or not Cutler expected it is something else, but this "Leinart wants to be paid as if he were drafted 3rd overall" is just something that Cardinal apologists have been repeating as if it were true.

If Condon's the source of the leaks, it's not hard to tell that his demands are reasonable.

I call BS... this was a talk of the draft pundits the day of the draft. (even before when some speculated that he could slip) They asked Matt (while still in the green room) if he was going to be difficult to sign since he slipped. Everytime I looked they were talking about how much money Leinart lost out on and this has been beaten around ad nauseam. You honestly don't think his agent is trying to recoup some of that money? Who really knows what is going on, but you can't sit there and claim this is all the workings of Cardinal's apologists.

 

[Sandan]

I don't remember any projections for Cutler in the top 5.

I may have heard one or two wild speculations in the pre draft hype but nothing that truly suggested he would be top 5

 

[kerouac9]

I call BS... this was a talk of the draft pundits the day of the draft. (even before when some speculated that he could slip) They asked Matt (while still in the green room) if he was going to be difficult to sign since he slipped. Everytime I looked they were talking about how much money Leinart lost out on and this has been beaten around ad nauseam. You honestly don't think his agent is trying to recoup some of that money? Who really knows what is going on, but you can't sit there and claim this is all the workings of Cardinal's apologists.

Where? Show me. Some guy on Channel 12 asserts it and it's suddenly true? I remember Matt saying after the draft that he thought he'd go higher, but he can't wait to get into camp. It's the same thing every draftee says.

I think that Condon's trying to get as much money for his client as he can, but there remains nothing to suggest that now that both parties are working on a deal that Leinart is seeking Vince Young's contract. All the blind assertions that he does are silly and baseless.

Yes, Leinart lost money not coming out last year in the draft. But there's nothing to suggest that he's trying to make it back on the Cards.

 

[Sandan]

K9, the problem is that you start from the premise that the Cardinals are cheap, stupid and most likely in the wrong [until proven innocent]

Reality is preobably somewhere in the middle but most stuff I've heard suggest unreasonable demands from camp Leinart.

I find it really difficult to believe they would be offering a contract worse than Cutler's

 

[1DS]

I think it's starting to really heat up and we'll hear something within the next 2-3 days. This opinion, of course, is based on nothing other than a gut feeling.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I don't remember any projections for Cutler in the top 5.

I may have heard one or two wild speculations in the pre draft hype but nothing that truly suggested he would be top 5

all three of these QB's were up and down the pre-draft mock boards for months.

 

[kerouac9]

I'm sorry, nidan. You must have me confused with another poster. I, for one, am not in the camp that the cards are always "cheap," and "stupid." I think that the Cardinals are an organization made up of individuals.

I think that Denny Green is a great talent evaluator of both coaches and players, and a solid football mind.
I think that Michael Bidwill is a firey guy, and a good guy, and a smart guy who wants to win and really wants control of this organization. I do not think that he is a good football guy and would prefer that he just sign checks and work on deals that don't have an effect on the on-field product.
I think that Rod Graves is a good administrator, but a poor negotiator and an abyssmal talent evaluator. I am not comfortable having him in the driver's seat of this situation considering that everything that he's touched before Denny Green turned to garbage and every decision that he made turned out to be mistaken.

I'm sorry, but where is this "most of the stuff you've heard"? Look at the "Leinart news" thread, and you'll see a bunch of stuff that says that it's the Cardinals being unreasonable here and not being good-faith negotiators. Starting two weeks ago.

The "Matt wants to be paid as a Top 5 guy" rings about as true as the rumors two years ago that Dansby wanted to be paid like the mid-first round pick that he was projected as.

 

[Billy Flynt]

I say 24 hours or less before the deal is done. That is of course barring some catastrophic change in stance by one of the parties.

 

[Sandan]

Ok, I appologise, you simply hate Rod Graves, I didn't realise that your dislike was that focused. I assumed you also disliked BB Snr and considered him to be micromanaging the process.

As for RG, I again point you to the FACT that he was part of bringing in D Green. As for the rest, when will you realize he wasn't the GM [or wahtever they call him] back then. Also back then BB Snr was in far more direct control of the management.

You know nothing about his negotiation skills or his talent evaluation. You make assumptions based on zero knowledge. You still blame him for drafts he didn't control.

I do know that the stupidity you associate with him is untrue

 

[Evil Ash]

I'm sorry, nidan. You must have me confused with another poster. I, for one, am not in the camp that the cards are always "cheap," and "stupid." I think that the Cardinals are an organization made up of individuals.

I think that Denny Green is a great talent evaluator of both coaches and players, and a solid football mind.
I think that Michael Bidwill is a firey guy, and a good guy, and a smart guy who wants to win and really wants control of this organization. I do not think that he is a good football guy and would prefer that he just sign checks and work on deals that don't have an effect on the on-field product.
I think that Rod Graves is a good administrator, but a poor negotiator and an abyssmal talent evaluator. I am not comfortable having him in the driver's seat of this situation considering that everything that he's touched before Denny Green turned to garbage and every decision that he made turned out to be mistaken.

I'm sorry, but where is this "most of the stuff you've heard"? Look at the "Leinart news" thread, and you'll see a bunch of stuff that says that it's the Cardinals being unreasonable here and not being good-faith negotiators. Starting two weeks ago.

The "Matt wants to be paid as a Top 5 guy" rings about as true as the rumors two years ago that Dansby wanted to be paid like the mid-first round pick that he was projected as.

The Matt wanting to be paid like Young stories have been around for a while now. They just aren't all that recent.

Some sources are saying its the Cards being unreasonable and others are saying its in Leinart's camp. This more then likely occurs because of the sources that the person reporting is relying upon.

If they use sources from Condon's offices, they'll give things from the WORST Cards offer as information to help their client. If they use sources from the Cardinals FO, then they'll give reporters info from Condon's WORST offer.

They're playing tug-of-war to make their side look favorable and that's probably why you see Somers and Urban no longer reporting this kind of info because its unreliable.

 

[kerouac9]

Ok, I appologise, you simply hate Rod Graves, I didn't realise that your dislike was that focused. I assumed you also disliked BB Snr and considered him to be micromanaging the process.

As for RG, I again point you to the FACT that he was part of bringing in D Green. As for the rest, when will you realize he wasn't the GM [or wahtever they call him] back then. Also back then BB Snr was in far more direct control of the management.

You know nothing about his negotiation skills or his talent evaluation. You make assumptions based on zero knowledge. You still blame him for drafts he didn't control.

I do know that the stupidity you associate with him is untrue

I think that Bill Bidwill is a conservative person running a family organization. I can't really blame him for not being Jerry Jones or Daniel Snyder, and I never have. I mentioned that Bill Bidwill has veto power over the contracts for the first round picks in refutation of the oft-repeated assertion that "this is a different Cardinals organization" and that Bill's not in charge anymore and that Michael is. That obviously isn't the case right now.

Please show me where in my post I said that Graves was "stupid." Read it again, and you'll see that I didn't. I think that he's a good administrator. I think that he's done a good job in convincing Bill Sr. to loosen the pursestrings and be more creative with contracts. I give him 50% credit for bringing in Denny Green, with the other 50% going to Michael Bidwill. I guess he deserves some credit for staying out of Denny's way when it comes to running the draft.

But the fact of the matter is that Rod Graves steps into the spotlight once a year, in the offseason, when rookie contracts are being negotiated. And the last four years that he's been the man on the spot, he's failed to get all of the draft picks in on time. The last two years, he's failed to get marquee players into camp for at least a week.

This is what Rod Graves does. He's fumbled it each time that he's tried. He deserves to take responsibility.

If he didn't want to be blamed for the 2001 draft debacle, he shouldn't have said "this is my draft" to the Arizona Republic immediately after it. If Dave McGinnis was the one in charge of extending the contracts of Raynoch Thompson and L.J. Shelton and Marcel Shipp, he should have recognized bad advice. This is what Vice Presidents in Charge of Football Operations do, nidan.

I've given you a pass for a long time for your schoolgirl crush on Rod Graves because he talked to you in the hall after PE, but this is getting pretty silly.

 

[kerouac9]

The Matt wanting to be paid like Young stories have been around for a while now. They just aren't all that recent.

I understand that, but I haven't heard legitimate ones since the Cards and Condon have gotten serious about negotiating just before camp started. And I never heard more than speculation on the board and from people that didn't even have unnamed sources that that is what Leinart would be looking for.

 

[Evil Ash]

I understand that, but I haven't heard legitimate ones since the Cards and Condon have gotten serious about negotiating just before camp started. And I never heard more than speculation on the board and from people that didn't even have unnamed sources that that is what Leinart would be looking for.

Somers said it on the Pit on Ch 12 during that time.

 

[kerouac9]

Somers said it on the Pit on Ch 12 during that time.

When? Did he have an attribution for it, or was it him speculating? What was the context? "How do you think negotiations are going to go? Are we going to have a holdout?"

 

[Evil Ash]

When? Did he have an attribution for it, or was it him speculating? What was the context? "How do you think negotiations are going to go? Are we going to have a holdout?"

He said something basically along the lines of "Leinart's camp is seeking money closer to Young then that of Cutler and that it could be a lengthy holdout". This was around the beginning of camp.

Seemed like it wasn't speculation but who knows at this point

 

[joeshmo]

He said something basically along the lines of "Leinart's camp is seeking money closer to Young then that of Cutler and that it could be a lengthy holdout". This was around the beginning of camp.

Seemed like it wasn't speculation but who knows at this point

Sommers was talking about base salaries in that comment. Not Gaurantees.

 

[kerouac9]

And Jurecki said that in the later years of the deal Leinart's camp is looking at salaries closer to what Young is getting, but those are speed bumps.

 

[clif]

Where? Show me. Some guy on Channel 12 asserts it and it's suddenly true? I remember Matt saying after the draft that he thought he'd go higher, but he can't wait to get into camp. It's the same thing every draftee says.

I think that Condon's trying to get as much money for his client as he can, but there remains nothing to suggest that now that both parties are working on a deal that Leinart is seeking Vince Young's contract. All the blind assertions that he does are silly and baseless.

Yes, Leinart lost money not coming out last year in the draft. But there's nothing to suggest that he's trying to make it back on the Cards.

Where? Did you even watch the draft? They asked he on camera in the green room? I had both ESPN and NFL network on DVR until about a week after the draft. I think even ESPN had their "money financial guy talking about purely the dollars that Lienart lost out on and how he will look to recoup it in contract and sponsorships. Numerous sites have hinted at this issue.

Let me be clear I am in no way suggesting that this is the reason for the hold up since I have no more info than any nor do I really care to look it up at this point. It is common knowledge that he lost money and it is reasonable to assume that his agent will work every angle to get some of that back. I don't blame them for taking that stance and in all honesty it really isn't hurting anyone right now that he is at home. The only people being affected by this are the fans. Leinarts already bought his 2 million dollar home and I doubt he is footing the bill on any meals so he will be ok.

As for the team.. he will be #2 come the first or second week of the season and all will be forgotten. The cards will... well... be the cards. No matter what they do (short of winning a super bowl) will always be labeled cheap. Rightfully so in alot of cases, but wrongfully in a number of cases. Why? Because Bill B is not the type of person to call a press conference to defend himself. Speculation will always run rampant.

 

[Evil Ash]

Sommers was talking about base salaries in that comment. Not Gaurantees.

I'm pretty certain he mentioned guarantees also

 

[kerouac9]

It is common knowledge that he lost money and it is reasonable to assume that his agent will work every angle to get some of that back.

See, this is where I depart from that, and I bet that Condon and Leinart are professional to depart from that, as well. It is not reasonable to assume that you should get Top 5 money when you're the 10th overall pick. The way that he'll make the money back is by outperforming his draft status and getting a new deal.

It is common knowledge that he lost money, and I bet that stung. But it is not "common knowledge" that he's trying to make it all back on his first contract. That's insanity, and Leinart and Condon are not insane.