Leinart Contract/Negotiations Discussion

[Sandan]

Thats exactly what he said

 

[Cheesebeef]

Thats exactly what he said

I don't know what Mocks you guys looked at but they ALL varied greatly with the ONE thing being the same ONE OF THE QBs was going at #3 - Leinhart, Young and Cutler were all mentioned there, numerous times. The next QB in most mocks didn't go until 7 or lower - thus NO ONE was a lock to be number 3 and any of them could make the argument they were supposed to go higher than they should have... even though that argument holds no water and it's highly doubtful that's what's holding up negotiations.

 

[Sandan]

Given that you hated the result of the 2003 draft so much, tell me what did RG and the Cardinals do as a result of that draft ?

 

[Cheesebeef]

Given that you hated the result of the 2003 draft so much, tell me what did RG and the Cardinals do as a result of that draft ?

huh? Did you not hate the result also? We got Q and that's pretty much all we have to show for that draft. Then we fired the coaches, who should have been fired the previous year anyway. What's your point?

 

[40yearfan]

NEWS FLASH!!!!!!!!!!

CHICKEN LITTLE SYNDROME HITS SOME OF CARDINALS FAITHFUL!!!!

News at 11:00.

 

[Cheesebeef]

NEWS FLASH!!!!!!!!!!

CHICKEN LITTLE SYNDROME HITS SOME OF CARDINALS FAITHFUL!!!!

News at 11:00.

uh, for the sky to be faling, that would have indicate there's a sky to begin with correct? Considering we've been 4-12, 6-10, 5-11 (and an atrocious 5-11 at that or does no one actually remember how bad we were last year), it seems pretty funny to me to bang on those people who (as usual) are looking at things OBJECTIVELY (and have been proven CORRECT on their views over the last three seasons) as having "chicken little syndrome".

 

[NEZCardsfan]

Can't we all just stop the arguing and admit the Cards are in huge trouble this year??

 

[Sandan]

Well they fired the coaches, that's my point.

I more than suspect they would have fired them the previous year if RG hadn't just taken over at the end of the season

 

[Cheesebeef]

Well they fired the coaches, that's my point.

which is even more ridiculous that the coaches (in your opinion) were given all the weight to decide what to do in the draft. If you have a coach that is just hanging on by a thread, you don't le him make decisions that will impact the future of your company. That's outright stupidity and even worse than making the bad decisions themself. That basically means you delegated to somone even more inept than you.

Besides - I don't buy what you're saying at all. Coaches with tthe pedigree of Bill Parcells didn't even get to call his own shots before he got the moniker of GM, but you're telling me that someone as pathetic as Coach Smac did? GGet real.

 

[joeshmo]

Can't we all just stop the arguing and admit the Cards are in huge trouble this year??

What. How dare you bring up the negatives of the Cards.

All is right with the team and our 1st rounder is in camp on time, and the past 3 before him were in camp on time as well.
We have no depth issues and still have 8-10 Mill in the bank.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I more than suspect they would have fired them the previous year if RG hadn't just taken over at the end of the season

then again, that makes RG look like a complete and utter ******. If you suspect they would have been fired a year earlier, how cna you defend the decision to let a coaching staff, hanging on by a thread, make decisions that will effect your ballclub for the next five-10 years?

I don't believe RG to be a complete and utter ****** as yoour scenario would make him out to be. I DO believe however that his role as "talent evaluator" ranks near the bottom on the league after seeing that draft and seeing the type of personnel decisions which were made when he had a similar job in Chicago years back.

 

[Sandan]

I am not defending anything, just correcting some inaccuracies.

Such as K9 blaming RG for a draft 2 years before he was promoted.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I am not defending anything, just correcting some inaccuracies.

Such as K9 blaming RG for a draft 2 years before he was promoted.

so you ARE saying that Graves allowed a lame-duck horrendous coach, with a pathetic coaching staff to make decisions that would impact the team for years?

 

[hsandhu]

speculation doesn't run rampant by itself. There's a reason the "cheap" moniker sticks to Bidwill - it's called lack of depth, abundance of cap space, first round holdouts and year after year of horrrendous teams. When all of this actually changes, perception WILL change and it won't take a Super Bowl or a press conference to do it. Look at the Bengals for example - just THREE years, they were actually THE laughingstock of football, yes, even over THE CARDINALS! They were called cheap, inept, everything they should have been - then, what happened? They started drafting well, paying their players, getting better coaches and... THEY STARTED WINNING. They haven't won jack squat in terms of titles and they didn't hold press conferences, but there is no doubt "the same old Bengals" matra doesn't exist anymore.

Winning cures all - period - but winning comes from doing things right which it remains to be seen if the Cardinals can ever do.

Again - the Bengals reversed 20 YEARS of complete ineptitude in one season - going from 2-14 to 8-8, to 8-6 (and headed towaqrds the playoffs when their starting QB went down for the season) to a division title. It doesn't take THAT long to reverse the depths a team might be in and as long as Sr. is running the show, I think it'll continue to be a problem.

I dont disagree with anything you said, but didn't you state a couple weeks back Robert Sarver was beginning to follow the Bill Bidwill pattern, and Bill Bidwill was improving?

Even ignoring team success can't you see a huge difference between Sarver and the "new and improved" Bidwill. Much less the "old" Bidwill. Then throw team success into the equation since Sarver's reign and it's an insult to compare the two.

You just argue winning changes everything, well hasn't the suns winning, and their moves to try and sustain winning for a long time, fall into the argument you make above. How can you then turnaround and compare Bidwill to Sarver?

btw: I like you am a big fan of both teams, and thus compare both as one wanting great success for both.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I dont disagree with anything you said, but didn't you state a couple weeks back Robert Sarver was beginning to follow the Bill Bidwill pattern, and Bill Bidwill was improving?

Even ignoring team success can't you see a huge difference between Sarver and the "new and improved" Bidwill. Much less the "old" Bidwill. Then throw team success into the equation since Sarver's reign and it's an insult to compare the two.

You just argue winning changes everything, well hasn't the suns winning, and their moves to try and sustain winning for a long time, fall into the argument you make above. How can you then turnaround and compare Bidwill to Sarver?

btw: I like you am a big fan of both teams, and thus compare both as one wanting great success for both.

when Sarver gets Diaw's deal done, he's off the hook IMO. And I didn't compare them to be exactly the same - I said I was seeing traits of what Bidwill used to do (and apparently is still doing unfortunately) to the way the Suns were starting to be run.

I was also making those comparisons BEFORE the Lienhart debacle, BEFORE the Marcus Banks signing and DURING a period in which the Suns were getting shot down left and right because people didn't want to buy into the "Suns discount". Things have changed since then, and my fears have been somewhat illeviated. Like I said up top, if Diaw's deal gets done, I've got no reservations about Sarver, but that's a big freaking if at this point.

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

My take on this entire thread. I think that too much is being made of the hold out. Even if Leinart misses 2 pre-season games it will be a minimal effect on the Cards season. I think if Leinart was in camp from day one and KW went down in, say, game 3 that Green would give Navarre the first shot. He's already said that he hopes Leinart doesn't have to play this year. It would be nice to have Leinart in camp but it's not like he's a major project like Vince Young is. He's been repeatedly called the most NFL ready QB to come along in years.

As for the Graves, he was totally inept about 4 years ago when had alot more say on things. I think DG has alot more say on personnell and Graves, to his credit, staying out of the way is the best career decision he has made. To not blame Graves for the draft debacle is just plain wrong. He WAS the guy running the show. But, you also have to give him credit for changing the way some of the contracts were re-done(even though his choice of players to extend was absurd) because it changed the culture of the organization. Now that the Cards have a guy with an eye for legitimate NFL talent it is starting to pay off. I just hope i never, EVER again hear Graves saying we're going to build belly of the team again.

 

[Duckjake]

Not quite as bad as Rick McIvor and a guy who played more at Safety than QB but yeah with Leinart unsigned our backup QB situation looks eerily similar to 1984. Anybody old enough to remember that year knows what happened, Lomax got hurt, we couldn't bench him, so playing injured he slumped, and we wound up missing the playoffs in a season we should have won the division with any sort of reasonable backup QB.

You must be thinking about a different year than 1984. The Cards won 3 of their last 4 that season to finish 9-7. Lomax threw for 4,614 yards and 28TD's. Cards missed the division title when the Cards missed a FG as time expired and lost to Wash 29-27.

All is right with the team and our 1st rounder is in camp on time, and the past 3 before him were in camp on time as well.

Yeah you would think that our first round pick last year held out, got hurt, and missed most of the season or something.

What I really like about reading this thread is seeing how the guys who 3-4 years ago were regarded by the "yea sayers" as Cardinal heroes are now called McGinnis' garbage by those same eternal optimists.

I love Cardinal football. Especially now that it's air conditioned.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I just hope i never, EVER again hear Graves saying we're going to build belly of the team again.

oh lord - that comment is like a bad acid flashback to the three years ago. I still can't believe some people here were getting on me about being "pessimistic" when our starting WRs were Larry Foster and Bryan Gilmore with an on over the hill Emmitt Smith was our RB on opening day.

The belly of the team - ugh - that and the new "innovative offense" people kept touting from our in wayyyyy over his head Coach(if you want to call him that) Jerry Sullivan, those were my favorite two phrases that offseason.

 

[Russ Smith]

You must be thinking about a different year than 1984. The Cards won 3 of their last 4 that season to finish 9-7. Lomax threw for 4,614 yards and 28TD's. Cards missed the division title when the Cards missed a FG as time expired and lost to Wash 29-27.



.

NOpe I mean 84, that year is ingrained in my memory forever for a variety of reasons including drafting Clyde Duncan over Lipps.

The backup QB's that year IIRC were Rick McIvor, and Rusty Lisch. Per pro football reference we lost 3 straight midyear to Rams, Dallas and Giants, games 10-12. That was the time that Lomax was rumored to have a sore shoulder that made even taking his jersey off painful, but because our backups were so bad, we kept playing Neil.

Lomax denied it during the season but later confessed that he'd only played because he felt he had to, his arm had been so sore he'd been taking pain shots to play.

 

[hsandhu]

I was also making those comparisons BEFORE the Lienhart debacle, BEFORE the Marcus Banks signing and DURING a period in which the Suns were getting shot down left and right because people didn't want to buy into the "Suns discount". Things have changed since then, and my fears have been somewhat illeviated. Like I said up top, if Diaw's deal gets done, I've got no reservations about Sarver, but that's a big freaking if at this point.

Fair enough. If he gets Diaw done, you're off his back for how long? I say he would deserve no criticism whatsoever until at least summer of '07.

To me, anyone who brings up Joe Johnson/Bryan Colangelo/Tading picks to criticize sarver at that point is wanting reason to attack, because if diaw gets done we not only have one of the best teams the upcoming, season but we have one of the brightest teams for the future (amare's health being the asterisk, and that ain't sarver's fault). That's pretty damn good.

 

[Russ Smith]

oh lord - that comment is like a bad acid flashback to the three years ago. I still can't believe some people here were getting on me about being "pessimistic" when our starting WRs were Larry Foster and Bryan Gilmore with an on over the hill Emmitt Smith was our RB on opening day.

The belly of the team - ugh - that and the new "innovative offense" people kept touting from our in wayyyyy over his head Coach(if you want to call him that) Jerry Sullivan, those were my favorite two phrases that offseason.

I bought that offense lock stock and barrel until I actually saw it in action a few times and thought who in their right mind builds an offense around sending WR's over the middle constantly so they get their brains beaten in and any tipped pass ends up picked off?

God that was a brutal year to watch, couldn't get the plays in on time, Blake telling the young WR's where to line up, and forgetting the play clock.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Fair enough. If he gets Diaw done, you're off his back for how long? I say he would deserve no criticism whatsoever until at least summer of '07.

To me, anyone who brings up Joe Johnson/Bryan Colangelo/Tading picks to criticize sarver at that point is wanting reason to attack, because if diaw gets done we not only have one of the best teams the upcoming, season but we have one of the brightest teams for the future (amare's health being the asterisk, and that ain't sarver's fault). That's pretty damn good.

IF he gets Diaw signed, as I've said all offseason long - I'll say the Suns did exactly what they needed to do and will withdraw my criticism. That's been my stance since the beginning of FA - it's never wavered. Still, IMO, it's a BIG IF considering what I've seen from Sarver in the past.

 

[Duckjake]

The backup QB's that year IIRC were Rick McIvor, and Rusty Lisch. Per pro football reference we lost 3 straight midyear to Rams, Dallas and Giants, games 10-12. That was the time that Lomax was rumored to have a sore shoulder that made even taking his jersey off painful, but because our backups were so bad, we kept playing Neil.

In those three games Lomax threw 142 passes. No wonder his arm was sore.

Rams -34-52-293
Dal - 27-52-357
NYG -19-38-203

According to my source the Cards combined for 17 turnovers in the 3 losses.

 

[BigRedArk]

Sounds like the old man is trying to low ball his QBOTF. What is this all about? Is he trying to get revenge for overpaying Jake all of those years by taking it out of Matt's hide?

 

[Crimson Warrior]

Sure it was predictable that #7 would hold out, because the cards had plenty of leverage. We have our day one starter.

I mean hey, you save a million here and a million there, and pretty soon you talkin about serious money.

And, I agree that generally we don't need matt in right away.

If were depending on him to beat SF on opening day, then were set up for single digit wins right there.

So, as of 08/07, there's alot of handwringing going on for nothing, because the ideal situation is that Matt watches from the sideline (under contract) for all the regular and post-season games anyway.

With all that said, I think the cardinals have made their point, and probably have Condon down to some pretty reasonable numbers.

Let's go ahead and get the deal done so we watch hollywood do his thing in a couple preseason games.