Leinart Contract/Negotiations Discussion

[40yearfan]

So Leinart should get the same amount guaranteed as a LB even though he is under contract for an additional year? No wonder you're a front office apologist, you both share the same archaic way of thinking that gets the Cardinals in trouble every year around this time.

Yes and if the Cards listened to people like you, they wouldn't be able to resign their good players and keep continuity because they would be in cap hell.

You were growling about how they were only offering $9 million and as it turns out, Jurecki was wrong, but we won't talk about that because then it wouldn't be the same old Cards.

 

[1DS]

Things are starting to heat up now. IMO, we will get something worked out in the next day or two. This, however, is based on nothing other than my gut.

 

[1DS]

The future is now.

I just want a very good OL and DL etc.

azbob

My god. Give me a break. Leinart (not Lionhart) will be great for us. How can anyone go from sheer joy that we finally drafted our QBoF, to wanted to trade that very QB in 3 months? Do you think holding out a couple of weeks is really going to hurt Matt in the long run? This year yes, it will, but lets be real about it. Even with a whole training camp under his belt, Matt wouldn't have been able to take us to the playoffs this year. Besides, it's not like the teaching and learning stop after training camp. Matt will still be able to study and breakdown game film (the mental part of the game is the most important for QB's anyway) as well as practice with the team as they prepare throughout the week. Then Matt will get a full Training camp next year and will have the opportunity to challange for a starting job.


stop freaking out, everything will be fine.

 

[MaoTosiFanClub]

Yes and if the Cards listened to people like you, they wouldn't be able to resign their good players and keep continuity because they would be in cap hell.

You were growling about how they were only offering $9 million and as it turns out, Jurecki was wrong, but we won't talk about that because then it wouldn't be the same old Cards.

Imagine the trouble this team would be in if they gave Leinart the $15 million I originally suggested instead of the much publicized $12 million. I mean, they'd be $8 million under the cap instead of their current $10 million which is obviously unthinkable.

And I've been saying for awhile now that Leinart should get at least $15 million guaranteed for a six year contract so upping the ante to $12 million isn't going to wow me nor will it Leinart. Sorry 40year, as Cheese said earlier - depth problems, unused cap room, unsigned draft pick, 5-11 season all remind us of the old Cardinals.

 

[kerouac9]

Of course, everything Tom Condon says is a lie and everything that Rod Graves says in the honest-to-God truth.

I mean, Rod Graves is incapable of lying. I mean, he said that the Pace-Johnson debacle was "his draft." And he told nidan that trading down and drafting Pace-Johnson wasn't his decision. Those two positions are totally compatible.

For what it's worth, while Rolle and Fitz did end up getting good deals, they obviously didn't start out as good deals, or neither player would have held out from training camp, would they?

 

[Rivercard]

Of course, everything Tom Condon says is a lie and everything that Rod Graves says in the honest-to-God truth.

My god. Does everything have to be so polarizingly black & white? It's called negotiation.

 

[kerouac9]

My god. Does everything have to be so polarizingly black & white? It's called negotiation.

MCD made it sound like Graves totally repudiated Condon's statements. I agree with you that neither is speaking the truth in this matter, but I give the reporters enough credit to believe that they're not pulling these numbers out of thin air.

The $9 million in guarantees with an extra $2 million if Leinart stays healthy is almost too ridiculous to be made up.

 

[lobo]

make it better

what will be funny is that there are five million posts looking at the issue inside out/outside in....name calling....etc etc...but once Matt hits the field eveyone will kiss and make up!!! hopefully it will be sooner or later....i believe we will see him on the field saturday if he is signed by tomorrow...on the field does not mean he is going to play more than three downs....just to give everyone a chance to cheer him

we'll see.

 

[lobo]

what will be funny is that there are five million posts looking at the issue inside out/outside in....name calling....etc etc...but once Matt hits the field eveyone will kiss and make up!!! hopefully it will be sooner or later....i believe we will see him on the field saturday if he is signed by tomorrow...on the field does not mean he is going to play more than three downs....just to give everyone a chance to cheer him

we'll see.

of course i meant sooner NOT later!!!!

 

[Renz]

I hope they trade Lionhart ASAP after signing him.

The future is now.

I just want a very good OL and DL etc.

azbob

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[40yearfan]

MCD made it sound like Graves totally repudiated Condon's statements. I agree with you that neither is speaking the truth in this matter, but I give the reporters enough credit to believe that they're not pulling these numbers out of thin air.

The $9 million in guarantees with an extra $2 million if Leinart stays healthy is almost too ridiculous to be made up.

Only to you. Most of us realized that is was just agent speak.

 

[40yearfan]

Imagine the trouble this team would be in if they gave Leinart the $15 million I originally suggested instead of the much publicized $12 million. I mean, they'd be $8 million under the cap instead of their current $10 million which is obviously unthinkable.

And I've been saying for awhile now that Leinart should get at least $15 million guaranteed for a six year contract so upping the ante to $12 million isn't going to wow me nor will it Leinart. Sorry 40year, as Cheese said earlier - depth problems, unused cap room, unsigned draft pick, 5-11 season all remind us of the old Cardinals.

What about resigning Davis, Dockett, etc. this year. Wouldn't it be nice to have the money available to do that during the year instead of waiting until next year and taking a real chance of losing these people? What happens if we have a chance to grab someone who could really help this team, but will have to give big bucks for? Who ever thought the Cards would go after Edge?

I don't know about the rest of the fans, but I for one would like to see some continuity with this team. Keep the good players, have good coaches and win games. You can't do that if you are constantly bumping up against the cap.

The Cards are on the right track regarding personnel and how they are running the organization and they are planning for the future. If the wins come this year, we can look forward to many more years of having a winning franchise. All the pieces are in place, we just need to win.

After 44 years of ups and downs with this team, I finally see them doing what it will take to have a successful franchise. Now all we need is a little patience.

 

[Cheesebeef]

What about resigning Davis, Dockett, etc. this year. Wouldn't it be nice to have the money available to do that during the year instead of waiting until next year and taking a real chance of losing these people? What happens if we have a chance to grab someone who could really help this team, but will have to give big bucks for? Who ever thought the Cards would go after Edge?

come on 40 - Matt's contract, even at 15 million, isn't goign to preclude us from extending the guys we want to extend on the team - remember, we still do have a ridiculous amoutn of money under the cap THIS YEAR. So you're first point is moot. As to "what if we had a chance to grab someone like Edge next year" - AGAIN - Matt's contract won'thave any effect on that one way or another seeing as AGAIN we're going to have over 30 milliondollar in cap room next year as well.

Nothing about Matt's contract will have us "bumping against the cap" - plain and simple.

As far as being on the right track with personnel and how they're running the organization - sorry, but they may have gotten better at evaluating talent, but with the amoutn of cap space we have along with the depth problem at OL, CB AND LB and the fact that we're the only ones int he ENTIRE LEAGUE WITH A HOLDOUT - I'd say they're on track alright, it's just the same track we've always been on.

 

[Cheesebeef]

After 44 years of ups and downs with this team, I finally see them doing what it will take to have a successful franchise. Now all we need is a little patience.

this statement might have some merit if I hadn't seen you say the exact same thing for the last 4 wretched seasons.

 

[joeshmo]

What about resigning Davis, Dockett, etc. this year. Wouldn't it be nice to have the money available to do that during the year instead of waiting until next year and taking a real chance of losing these people? What happens if we have a chance to grab someone who could really help this team, but will have to give big bucks for? Who ever thought the Cards would go after Edge?

First Dockett will a RFA. Re-signing during the season is not a priority as it can be done next offseason or during next offseason.

Second we could only have $5 more dollars in cap space right now and still extend the whole team. It is called an extension for a reason, becuase it wont take affect until next season, bonuses and all. Having/Needing 10 Mill left in cap space going into the season for re-signings is sort of a misconception. Becuase you dont need cap space to do extensions, you need cap space next season not this season. It is only a usefull tool to count their bonus against this years cap and not have it count on future years, it is a tool to lower future years cap, but is not needed. And that strategy is all fine and dandy, but here is the kicker.

The Cards dont need to lower their cap for future years. They will have 40+ players under contract next year with 40 or so Mill of cap space to spend. With few of our own UFA to re-sign and most being RFA's or EFA's.

So we are going to have 40 Mill in cap space next season, few UFA's to spend it on, some cheap RFA's and EFA's and what could be one of the weakest FA class in a long time. Because of the new CBA teams next year will have more cap space then ever to spend.

So to recap having 10 Mill of cap left doesnt give us any more ability to re-sign players, having 10 mill or 1 mill you can easily extend your players. And Finally having 10 Mill left this year wont make us any better this year, and will only add more to an already bloated cap space next year.

 

[kerouac9]

Not to mention that I've heard that the salary cap will likely increase by another $10 million next offseason.

The Cards saying that they needed to reserve the $8 million that we're under the cap right now for extensions is an excuse to not spend money to improve the roster right now. The reason that the Cards like to extend contracts in-season is so that they can re-sign players without expanding their payroll.

 

[Russ Smith]

Really? Because it seems to me that they were all drafted on the same day. The negotiators had an equal amount of time to sign their guys. I didn't say "longest holdout", I said into camp last. Matt's the only one out there.

Aren't you Mr. Technicality.

Whittner only held out 8 days. Allen was a 10 day holdout. Bunkley held out 16 days. For the record.

Technically in my mind NONE of them are holdouts. A holdout is a guy who has a signed contract, and refuses to honor it. An unsigned rookie can't holdout, he can just fail to sign on time.

 

[JeffGollin]

Amazing. According to Jurecki we were only offering $9 million yesterday and jumped it up to $14 million last night?

MJ and Bick (and Cole) are expressing amazement as to how the Cards could leap from $9 mil guaranteed to $14 mil.

Maybe it's because Cole didn't have the correct opening number in the first place. And if that's true, maybe the second number isn't any more credible.

Or perhaps RG's definition of "guaranteed" includes "weasel money" (i.e. stuff like impossible to make incentives) whereas the $9 mil is stripped of all that. Like Jim Mora says: "We think we know..."

RG says we've been dealing in good faith and I believe him. Lienart shouldn't get over $12 million guaranteed.

I don't think RG is deliberately trying to mislead anyone, but I do think he'd try to cast a favorable spin on things by lumping weasel money with the total guaranteed money. In other words, what I'd like to know for certain is: "What's the Cardinals' most recent offer in terms of "clean" guaranteed dollars?"

 

[Pariah]

Technically in my mind NONE of them are holdouts. A holdout is a guy who has a signed contract, and refuses to honor it. An unsigned rookie can't holdout, he can just fail to sign on time.

Aren't you Mr. Technicality.

 

[Russ Smith]

Aren't you Mr. Technicality.

technically yes.

 

[john h]

Deal, no deal? Leinart, Cardinals can't get togetherBy Len Pasquarelli
ESPN.com


Five days into training camp, and with no significant progress in the negotiations between the Arizona Cardinals and the representatives for first-round draft pick Matt Leinart, the two sides on Friday swapped letters but not contract proposals.

The message of the missives faxed between Cardinals vice president of football operations Rod Graves and agent Tom Condon of CAA remains unknown. But judging from Condon's demeanor Friday evening, one might surmise the two sides weren't exchanging pleasantries, or any other verbiage that might move them closer to an accord.

"There's really nothing to report," said Condon, who last week spent three days in face-to-face bargaining before leaving the Phoenix area without a deal. "I guess you could say we're talking, in a sense, but it really hasn't been anything you could call progress. It is what it is."

Leinart is one of just three first-round selections who remain unsigned, with safeties Donte Whitner of the Buffalo Bills and the Miami Dolphins' Jason Allen joining the former Southern California quarterback in being absent from their respective training camps. Defensive tackle Brodrick Bunkley, the first-round pick of the Philadelphia Eagles, agreed to terms on Friday afternoon after missing two weeks of camp.

It's believed the Cardinals have made about three different proposals to Leinart but, obviously, either the numbers, the terms or the structure was not amenable to the former USC star.

The 10th overall choice in the draft and probably a bargain in that slot after he posted a brilliant 37-2 record as the Trojans' starter for three seasons, Leinart was in Phoenix for several days last week and actually spent time throwing with some Arizona receivers. But when he missed last Sunday evening's deadline for reporting to camp and then Monday's opening practice, Leinart returned home to the Los Angeles area.

The 2004 Heisman Trophy winner, Leinart is expected to battle two-year veteran John Navarre for the backup job behind starter Kurt Warner once his contract is resolved. The consensus is that the Cardinals chose Leinart to groom him as the team's quarterback of the future.

During his celebrated college career, Leinart completed 807-of-1,245 passes for 10,693 yards, with 99 touchdown passes and 23 interceptions.

Len Pasquarelli is a senior NFL writer for ESPN.com

Seems like a no brainer to me but what do I know. He should be paid somewhere between 9 and 11???? If other teams thought he was worth more then they would have drafted him higher. I have no idea what a guy would lose if he held out for the full year and went back into the draft? Seems he would have to be drafted really high to make up for the money he lost and has no gurantee he will be drafted higher than #10 again. The last bozo who did that with us was a QB (Kelly Stouffer) who was out of the league rather quick when he came back. I suspect he will sign at some point but you have to wonder sometimes what the agents are thinking? I assume it is not illegal for an agent to advance a player a mil or so if he is a Leinhart????

 

[john h]

profootballtalk.com

POSTED 10:47 p.m. EDT; UPDATED 11:38 p.m. EDT, August 4, 2006

ANOTHER STOUFFER TELLING THE CARDS TO STUFF IT?

The Cardinals draft a quarterback in the top ten. Negotiations quickly result in an impasse.

The events of 2006 between the Arizona Cardinals and USC quarterback Matt Leinart are similar, thus far, to the events of nearly 20 years ago, when the St. Louis Cardinals couldn't sign CSU quarterback Kelly Stouffer, the sixth overall pick in the draft.

How ugly did it get? Stouffer sat our the entire 1987 season before being traded to the Seahawks, initially for safety Kenny Easley but then for draft picks after Easley failed a physical due to kidney problems that forced his retirement.

Along the way, Stouffer considered suing the Cardinals and the league in an attempt to have himself declared a free agent. Earlier that year, No. 3 overall pick Alonzo Highsmith of the Oilers won a temporary injunction against the team and the league, permitting him to negotiate with other teams. He signed with the Oilers while the litigation was pending.

Though Leinart likely won't mount a legal challenge to the system that makes him the exclusive property of the Cardinals, we're not ready to rule out a year-long holdout and a re-entry into the draft.

As we've always said, a guy should only re-enter if he thinks he'll be drafted in the next year in the same or better spot than he was picked in the current year. Depending on the number of teams with needs at the position who are drafting in the top ten, Leinart has a good chance, in our view, of going in the top ten again, and possibly a spot or two higher. Brady Quinn and Drew Stanton are the top quarterback prospects for now, and Leinart would most likely be no worse than the No. 3 quarterback come the 2007 draft.

In the interim, Leinart could work on his measurables, such as his time in the 40-yard dash, which he didn't perform at his Pro Day workout.

On the other hand, however, a decision not to sign a contract with the Cardinals could make teams even more concerned about his long-term commitment to and love of the game.

We think the chances of Leinart sitting out the full year are still very slim, especially since teams can't afford to get nothing for their first-round picks. But Cards coach Dennis Green's head is just hard enough to allow him to dig in. Besides, it isn't as if Green doesn't know a thing or two about wasting first-round draft picks. He's the guy, after all, who drafted Dimitrius Underwood.

Would Green have any input at all as to salary input for Leinhart? I doubt it. I think this is strictly up to the owner, GM, and numbers crunchers.

If they do not sign him we still need a young QB and if we want a good one we will have to use a #1 probably and face the same problem. If the first two QB's have been signed it would seem like we should be able to sign our QB. I wonder what the sticking points are?????

 

[MaoTosiFanClub]

Over the course of a six year contract an extra $3 million in guarantees to Leinart right now comes out to about 500k per season. Does anyone really think that will stop us form getting extensions done when the team goes into every season around $10 million under the cap?

 

[Lloydian]

Or perhaps RG's definition of "guaranteed" includes "weasel money"

In other words, you're saying that Graves defines "Guaranteed" as "Not Guaranteed".

Is it inconceivable that MJ was never right at the $9 Million figure?

Let me go on record right now as saying that, unlike so many other people who have signed on other days of the week, I predict we'll have Leinart in on Thursday.

 

[Billy Flynt]

I wouldn't put any stock into anything published on profootballtalk.

ESPN Radio/Dan Patrick Show have been talking about it. Reports say they are edging closer. Like most NFL contracts the guaranteed money is the sticking point.