If the plane didn't crash, why did the time travellers earlier find wreck from that flight?
Lost - Season 5 (Spoilers)
- Thread starter Mike Olbinski
- Start date
I just revised my post. If the plane did crash then I think that just being in the area allowed the island to snatch them...therefore, guaranteeing their safety.
Some thoughts:
- I'm quite positive Kate returned Aaron to Claire's mother. We know Kate knew where she was staying, and after learning Claire's mother knew nothing about Aaron's origin and wasn't trying to steal the kid, Kate trusted the woman would keep the child safe.
- Ben killing Penny is a good theory because it fits his parting quote, "Just keeping a promise to old friend." Ben promised Widmore he would kill his daughter in revenge. Eye for an eye. (Ben is so Old Testament. His story arc is reminiscent of King Saul, with Locke being a David/Jesus character and Alpert as maybe Jonathan. It would not surprise me, once returned, Ben really does go about hunting down Locke to eliminate the threat to his throne). Ben killing Penny would also drive Desmond to go back to the island and kill Ben, even though Desmond was NOT one of the "Oceanix Six." The island isn't done with him, Faraday's "mother" said.
- Ben's use of "Doubting Thomas" was one of the better written (and executed) scenes I've witnessed in a decade. It's very hard to constantly write dialogue in a timeless way that communicates to so many, but I'm dazzled with this writing team's ability to constantly return Ben to humanity after revealing the real darkness of his heart. Ben praying? In a church? Before exhorting Jack to have faith? That kind of dramatic irony is very rare in television (or in movies and even modern fiction), and to also pull it off with subtlety and without heavy-handedness says a lot about the direction and acting chops of the cast. Not since Darth Vader have I seen a "bad guy" in American drama with such wonderful complexity.
- In the way Peter Jackson turned Samwise Gamgee into the hero of Lord of the Rings, the writers have turned Hurley into the real hero of lost. Hurley is the true heart of the show and his character is about to hit his real stride, I think. Hurley is the unwilling hero, unlike Locke, who craves to be the hero but only does heroic things on his terms. Locke's heroism is about his own ego; ultimately, he's selfish. Hurley's heroism comes from a pure concern for humanity. Like all great heroes, Hurley has no interest in being the hero, but he stumbles into it out of his compassion for others. His is the true sacrifice.
- "We're not going to Guam, are we?" That line right there just raised my estimation of Jeff Fahey by a factor of 100. The guy has been such an underrated actor. I was still laughing well after the commercial break. It's now going to be the quote the wife and I share every time we get in the car together.
- As much as I like to think I pay attention to all the details, I still could not place the character who sat across from Kate. I know I've seen him before, but I can't tell if it's because he's a popular character actor or if he was in a previous episode. I'm assuming he's related to Sayid's story arc in some way, but I could be wrong. I think it's definitely relevant that he was sitting in first class. He and the woman keeping Sayid in chains were the only non-Oceanic Six in that section of the plane.
- I suspect the plane did not crash and Ben did not get taken by the island. Ben once said, before turning the wheel at the greenhouse, that by doing so he couldn't go back to the island. HOWEVER, Christian apparently always meant for John to do so, and Ben was disobedient, so maybe Ben didn't quite understand how it worked.
- I'm quite positive Kate returned Aaron to Claire's mother. We know Kate knew where she was staying, and after learning Claire's mother knew nothing about Aaron's origin and wasn't trying to steal the kid, Kate trusted the woman would keep the child safe.
- Ben killing Penny is a good theory because it fits his parting quote, "Just keeping a promise to old friend." Ben promised Widmore he would kill his daughter in revenge. Eye for an eye. (Ben is so Old Testament. His story arc is reminiscent of King Saul, with Locke being a David/Jesus character and Alpert as maybe Jonathan. It would not surprise me, once returned, Ben really does go about hunting down Locke to eliminate the threat to his throne). Ben killing Penny would also drive Desmond to go back to the island and kill Ben, even though Desmond was NOT one of the "Oceanix Six." The island isn't done with him, Faraday's "mother" said.
- Ben's use of "Doubting Thomas" was one of the better written (and executed) scenes I've witnessed in a decade. It's very hard to constantly write dialogue in a timeless way that communicates to so many, but I'm dazzled with this writing team's ability to constantly return Ben to humanity after revealing the real darkness of his heart. Ben praying? In a church? Before exhorting Jack to have faith? That kind of dramatic irony is very rare in television (or in movies and even modern fiction), and to also pull it off with subtlety and without heavy-handedness says a lot about the direction and acting chops of the cast. Not since Darth Vader have I seen a "bad guy" in American drama with such wonderful complexity.
- In the way Peter Jackson turned Samwise Gamgee into the hero of Lord of the Rings, the writers have turned Hurley into the real hero of lost. Hurley is the true heart of the show and his character is about to hit his real stride, I think. Hurley is the unwilling hero, unlike Locke, who craves to be the hero but only does heroic things on his terms. Locke's heroism is about his own ego; ultimately, he's selfish. Hurley's heroism comes from a pure concern for humanity. Like all great heroes, Hurley has no interest in being the hero, but he stumbles into it out of his compassion for others. His is the true sacrifice.
- "We're not going to Guam, are we?" That line right there just raised my estimation of Jeff Fahey by a factor of 100. The guy has been such an underrated actor. I was still laughing well after the commercial break. It's now going to be the quote the wife and I share every time we get in the car together.
- As much as I like to think I pay attention to all the details, I still could not place the character who sat across from Kate. I know I've seen him before, but I can't tell if it's because he's a popular character actor or if he was in a previous episode. I'm assuming he's related to Sayid's story arc in some way, but I could be wrong. I think it's definitely relevant that he was sitting in first class. He and the woman keeping Sayid in chains were the only non-Oceanic Six in that section of the plane.
- I suspect the plane did not crash and Ben did not get taken by the island. Ben once said, before turning the wheel at the greenhouse, that by doing so he couldn't go back to the island. HOWEVER, Christian apparently always meant for John to do so, and Ben was disobedient, so maybe Ben didn't quite understand how it worked.
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I thought the central battle was between "Faith" and "Reason"?
In my mind, I think the Monster is an Angel. It serves as an Angel of Death, delivering justice and furthering the Island's/God's plan, while also serving one of the other most important functions of an Angel, that of being a Messenger. I thought it revealing that the Monster was unleashed from the Temple, and that Rousseau thought of it as a "security system" (another classic role of Angels).
To that end, I think that the apparitions are Messengers from the Island that are precluded from any "hands on" activity, but who can influence the actions of the receivers of the message.
I am also of the opinion that Richard is a manifestation of the this same "Monster" as are all the people and things that come out of Ben's so-called magic box.
Of course, I could be completely full of it, too.
JTS
They can be two in the same. The recognized heated middle of the predestination vs. free will debate was John Calvin, a French theologian and core of the Reformed Church who first postulated the Protestant cardinal tenet of predestination, and Thomas Hobbes, a naturalist who first theorized the scientific version of predestination, now known as determinism. On the other side of this debate include philosophers John Locke, Thomas Jefferson, and the French anarchists such as Jean-Jaques Rousseau. In fact, I would argue Rousseau vs. Hobbes best represents the intensity of the debate, especially since they were contemporaries. The natural opposing Christian theological component to Calvinism is Arminianism, which *could* describe John Locke, although it wasn't a recognized theology in his age.
At its most base element, faith craves foreknowledge and assurance. Reason craves free will and undetermined futures. In the above mentioned philosophers, those generalizations collide and implode and contradict all over the place, which is why it makes for such great drama!
In my mind, I think the Monster is an Angel. It serves as an Angel of Death, delivering justice and furthering the Island's/God's plan, while also serving one of the other most important functions of an Angel, that of being a Messenger. I thought it revealing that the Monster was unleashed from the Temple, and that Rousseau thought of it as a "security system" (another classic role of Angels).
To that end, I think that the apparitions are Messengers from the Island that are precluded from any "hands on" activity, but who can influence the actions of the receivers of the message.
I am also of the opinion that Richard is a manifestation of the this same "Monster" as are all the people and things that come out of Ben's so-called magic box.
Of course, I could be completely full of it, too.
JTS
Another really good theory! I like it a lot, actually. If you assume the story theme is about redemption, and all the characters have serious flaws, and they all landed on the island in an unredeemed state, your theory is a strong one, at least as a literary device. They've gotten away from this theme since Season 1, but I sense the circle being completed and returning to it.
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This week, we’d like to introduce you to Saïd Taghmaoui, a French thesp most recently seen in the Don Cheadle thriller Traitor. He’ll play Caesar, a mystery man who...um...well, that’s all we got. But the producers say the actor’s skill set fits the part. “He has an innate intelligence, intensity, and danger we really responded to,” says Lindelof, who declined to specify whether Caesar is good or bad. However, Cuse teases that the character will be playing “an important part of the setup for the final act of the show in season 6." He also confirms that Robinson’s Ilana is associated with Caesar, and likens her to Heath Ledger’s Joker in The Dark Knight. “There was something very unsettling about the way the Joker kept telling different stories about his background -- something very similar to what we had planned for Ilana,” he says.
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Time-travel in Lost vs. real science
I've been relying a lot on the Mirror Moon Theory to understand the island, the time travel, and the other heavy-lifting science elements in the show. Last night's episode sort of shot holes in the MMT, though. More specifically, MMT may just be too specific for a TV show.
What's more important is Mrs. Hawking (Faraday's "mother") explained a scientific/government search for exotic matter based on their recognition (and mathematical proofs) of "electro-magnetic pockets."
Here's the trick to the island now based on her description. The island is now defined by:
- Negative gravitational mass
- Positive inertial mass
- But with the ability to "tied down" or "anchored to" matter with a positive gravitational mass
Exotic matter remains the elusive physical proof of Einstein disciples and particle physicists. It's a real thing in so much it must be real if the Theory of Relativity holds true. Exotic matter:
- Holds no baryonic particles
- Is held evident by a negative pressure density
Einstein believed time to hold no static principles of movement ... it could speed up or slow down as it moved through space. And current theories on exotic matter suggest all time itself could be experienced if you had enough exotic matter creating enough wormholes.
Closer to the Lost time-travel theories, if time is a river, build up of exotic matter in that river can create whirlpools. This is actually more than theory, because scientists at UA have shown spontaneous vortices in Bose-Einstein condensates (matter cooled to a point to allow the lowest quantum states). If you've ever watched a sink drain, you notice the vortex has a hollow middle (because the vortex cannot continue into infinity). That's the idea behind exotic matter opening up wormholes in time and allowing us to move from one time to another.
One last thing: The Lost writers seemed to suggest those left behind actually went *forward* in time, which crosses currently held quantum theories on time in general. What do I mean? At one point the Losties were evading some unknown group on canoes that had bottles of water made in India. The flight our Oceanic 6 took was Indian.
Anxious to see how they wriggle out of this bag.
I've been relying a lot on the Mirror Moon Theory to understand the island, the time travel, and the other heavy-lifting science elements in the show. Last night's episode sort of shot holes in the MMT, though. More specifically, MMT may just be too specific for a TV show.
What's more important is Mrs. Hawking (Faraday's "mother") explained a scientific/government search for exotic matter based on their recognition (and mathematical proofs) of "electro-magnetic pockets."
Here's the trick to the island now based on her description. The island is now defined by:
- Negative gravitational mass
- Positive inertial mass
- But with the ability to "tied down" or "anchored to" matter with a positive gravitational mass
Exotic matter remains the elusive physical proof of Einstein disciples and particle physicists. It's a real thing in so much it must be real if the Theory of Relativity holds true. Exotic matter:
- Holds no baryonic particles
- Is held evident by a negative pressure density
Einstein believed time to hold no static principles of movement ... it could speed up or slow down as it moved through space. And current theories on exotic matter suggest all time itself could be experienced if you had enough exotic matter creating enough wormholes.
Closer to the Lost time-travel theories, if time is a river, build up of exotic matter in that river can create whirlpools. This is actually more than theory, because scientists at UA have shown spontaneous vortices in Bose-Einstein condensates (matter cooled to a point to allow the lowest quantum states). If you've ever watched a sink drain, you notice the vortex has a hollow middle (because the vortex cannot continue into infinity). That's the idea behind exotic matter opening up wormholes in time and allowing us to move from one time to another.
One last thing: The Lost writers seemed to suggest those left behind actually went *forward* in time, which crosses currently held quantum theories on time in general. What do I mean? At one point the Losties were evading some unknown group on canoes that had bottles of water made in India. The flight our Oceanic 6 took was Indian.
Anxious to see how they wriggle out of this bag.
LoyaltyisaCurse
IF AND WHEN HEALTHY...
He was in the movie: Vantage Point with Matthew Sheppard.
Chaplin
Better off silent
Three Kings as well.
I just realized who the female cop was. She was the partner in the short lived show New Amsterdam (about the guy who was immortal). She was a cop in that show too.
Chaplin
Better off silent
She was also Omar Sharif's rebellious daughter in Hidalgo. She was also in Rome and played a major role in the short lived "Lone Gunman" series.
I've been relying a lot on the Mirror Moon Theory to understand the island, the time travel, and the other heavy-lifting science elements in the show. Last night's episode sort of shot holes in the MMT, though. More specifically, MMT may just be too specific for a TV show.
What's more important is Mrs. Hawking (Faraday's "mother"
Here's the trick to the island now based on her description. The island is now defined by:
- Negative gravitational mass
- Positive inertial mass
- But with the ability to "tied down" or "anchored to" matter with a positive gravitational mass
Exotic matter remains the elusive physical proof of Einstein disciples and particle physicists. It's a real thing in so much it must be real if the Theory of Relativity holds true. Exotic matter:
- Holds no baryonic particles
- Is held evident by a negative pressure density
Einstein believed time to hold no static principles of movement ... it could speed up or slow down as it moved through space. And current theories on exotic matter suggest all time itself could be experienced if you had enough exotic matter creating enough wormholes.
Closer to the Lost time-travel theories, if time is a river, build up of exotic matter in that river can create whirlpools. This is actually more than theory, because scientists at UA have shown spontaneous vortices in Bose-Einstein condensates (matter cooled to a point to allow the lowest quantum states). If you've ever watched a sink drain, you notice the vortex has a hollow middle (because the vortex cannot continue into infinity). That's the idea behind exotic matter opening up wormholes in time and allowing us to move from one time to another.
One last thing: The Lost writers seemed to suggest those left behind actually went *forward* in time, which crosses currently held quantum theories on time in general. What do I mean? At one point the Losties were evading some unknown group on canoes that had bottles of water made in India. The flight our Oceanic 6 took was Indian.
Anxious to see how they wriggle out of this bag.
You're trying to explain scientifically what you should be accepting on faith alone.
But as to the forward time travel, didn't they do just that when they went from 1954 to their present in 2004? Why would it be such a leap for them to travel forward a couple of more years?
JTS
PS - Today was the second time we've discussed Calvin on this MB. One more time and we'll be exceeding the legal limit.
Chaplin
Better off silent
Of course, you guys might be reading too much into this and have wasted tons of time talking about it.
CaptTurbo
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Of course, you guys might be reading too much into this and have wasted tons of time talking about it.
BINGO!
Of course, you guys might be reading too much into this and have wasted tons of time talking about it.
That's okay, because at some certain time I fully expect that a flash of extremely bright light is going to give me all of this wasted time right back.
JTS
That's okay, because at some certain time I fully expect that a flash of extremely bright light is going to give me all of this wasted time right back.
JTS
LOL.
Love reading all the theories. Keep em coming (in other words, waster more time).
Of course, you guys might be reading too much into this and have wasted tons of time talking about it.
I've spent more time learning about real science watching Lost than I ever did in school. On the bus/train to work I've been reading a book called Foucalt's Pendelum by Umberto Eco (yes, there is a relationship to Lost ... Mr. Eko was *definitely* inspired by Umberto Eco). This book is so dense with Lost-like science, I never would have read it had I not watched the show.
Never had a show or a movie challenge me like this.
They shouldn't be able to go from their time to Oceanix Six time according to the Lost calendar, because they've never been there before. They've been time traveling since the day the Oceanic Six left, and the Six are returning three years later in 2007.
One of the best books ever written! I read it when it came out in 1988 and then again 10 years ago, and have given it to many a friend over the years.
But I never caught the Eco reference before and I'm going to spend some time thinking about how that ties in with the show. Thanks!
(Let me know when you're done with the book, because I'm sure that by the end you'll see some startling similarities to both the overall theme and also to some recent events that were revealed this past week. Thanks again for mentioning this, I can't believe that I hadn't made the connection before)
JTS
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Happy Lost Day!!!! Today is about Jeremy Bentham.
Just a tidbit about the name:
Jeremy Bentham invented the Panopticon. The Panopticon is a type of prison building designed by English philosopher Jeremy Bentham in the late eighteenth century. The concept of the design is to allow an observer to observe all prisoners without the prisoners being able to tell if they are being observed or not, thus conveying a "sentiment of an invisible omniscience." In his own words, Bentham described the Panopticon as "a new mode of obtaining power of mind over mind, in a quantity hitherto without example."
Just a tidbit about the name:
Jeremy Bentham invented the Panopticon. The Panopticon is a type of prison building designed by English philosopher Jeremy Bentham in the late eighteenth century. The concept of the design is to allow an observer to observe all prisoners without the prisoners being able to tell if they are being observed or not, thus conveying a "sentiment of an invisible omniscience." In his own words, Bentham described the Panopticon as "a new mode of obtaining power of mind over mind, in a quantity hitherto without example."
So how did flight 316 land with all survivors?
Did they land on the runway the Others were building in the early season?
Did they land on the runway the Others were building in the early season?
Wow. So the island obviously didn't want Ben back. It didn't snatch him. I think Ben is going to be royally pissed off. He already has shown that he is jealous of Locke's supposed importance. Ben is going to try and get control back of the island.
Something tells me between Locke and whomever loves the person Ben hurt (based on being covered in blood episode before), Ben is going to be a gunned for person in the near future.
Something tells me between Locke and whomever loves the person Ben hurt (based on being covered in blood episode before), Ben is going to be a gunned for person in the near future.
How much you bet whatever Ben did he is going to blame on Locke. I could see that happening. Between getting everyone back on the island and whatever else Ben has up his sleeve, I can see Walt's vision coming to pass.
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