MadCards Training Camp Observations Friday 7/26

[kerouac9]

What's your basis for claiming that Keim only had to do his job three years after being named GM and voted executive of the year twice? Were Pro Football Talk and Sporting News ignorant of his lack of influence up to that point?


Sure looks like it!

...dbs

So is your idea that Keim is a good GM who forgot how to do his job the last three seasons? I don't want to go through the litany of how Keim has failed at the top of the draft consistently during this tenure. In fact, I'd remind you that when this board was calling for Keim's head just 8 months ago, I was one of the few voices recommending caution and saying (1) I'm not convinced that Wilks was Keim's (first) choice and (2) even with available evidence, I think that Keim is a league-average GM who adequately manages the myriad tasks associated with his role.

LOL — well if PFT and Sporting News said so, it's probably true! Marvin Lewis and Mike Smith were coaches of the year in 2009 and 2008 as voted on by the Associated Press; we should've hired those guys to be head coach!

What has Keim shown since January 24, 2016 to show that he is more than an average GM instead of a giant thumb with a face drawn on it?

I know that Krang and other would love to retcon the last three years of average-to-execrable football into a story where every step is toward the glorious arrival of Kyler Murray (Krang has said before that signing Sam Bradford, even knowing what we know now, was Actually Good), but it's far more likely that if Murray and Kingsbury work out, it's more another lucky strike by a wildcatter than the result of a sound process (which would still be good!).

 

[Chopper0080]

You're 2nd paragraph is a$$ backwards. As a fan, you should be 100% in, until proven otherwise. You should never be 100% out until proven otherwise. That contradicts the term "fan". In America, you are innocent until proven guilty. You are not guilty until proven innocent. At this juncture last year, I was 100% in with Wilks/Rosen. When both significantly disappointed, I was OUT. If K1/K2 are EQUALLY as bad, my support will change. Until that happens, I'm 100% in.

Being a fan isn't about being a lemming. I can be a fan and still have independent thought. I root for the Cardinals. That is a given. That doesn't mean I have to think everything they are doing is right and the best way of doing things. Being a fan doesn't mean I have to stop being intelligent.

 

[Chopper0080]

So is your idea that Keim is a good GM who forgot how to do his job the last three seasons? I don't want to go through the litany of how Keim has failed at the top of the draft consistently during this tenure. In fact, I'd remind you that when this board was calling for Keim's head just 8 months ago, I was one of the few voices recommending caution and saying (1) I'm not convinced that Wilks was Keim's (first) choice and (2) even with available evidence, I think that Keim is a league-average GM who adequately manages the myriad tasks associated with his role.

LOL — well if PFT and Sporting News said so, it's probably true! Marvin Lewis and Mike Smith were coaches of the year in 2009 and 2008 as voted on by the Associated Press; we should've hired those guys to be head coach!

What has Keim shown since January 24, 2016 to show that he is more than an average GM instead of a giant thumb with a face drawn on it?

I know that Krang and other would love to retcon the last three years of average-to-execrable football into a story where every step is toward the glorious arrival of Kyler Murray (Krang has said before that signing Sam Bradford, even knowing what we know now, was Actually Good), but it's far more likely that if Murray and Kingsbury work out, it's more another lucky strike by a wildcatter than the result of a sound process (which would still be good!).

Keim frustrates me more than anything. I feel like he did very little to maximize the window he created by trading for Palmer and hiring Arians. His drafts are consistently bad at the top, but with some pretty good picks in the middle. He has made some great post draft FA signings, but has failed to build consistency in the roster. He has failed to retain a lot of the talent that he brought in. He has alternated in being too passive in times addressing problems, but also has shown a willingness to gamble on players at times.

 

[kerouac9]

Keim frustrates me more than anything. I feel like he did very little to maximize the window he created by trading for Palmer and hiring Arians. His drafts are consistently bad at the top, but with some pretty good picks in the middle. He has made some great post draft FA signings, but has failed to build consistency in the roster. He has failed to retain a lot of the talent that he brought in. He has alternated in being too passive in times addressing problems, but also has shown a willingness to gamble on players at times.

I think that Keim found a real inefficiency with veteran players late in camp who could sign short-term deals. It's like what the Pats have done, but you could do it with a middling team trying to build momentum. Then the league caught up to that inefficiency, and we wonder what the "Keim Time Signing" is going to be, and it's, like, a guy who's going to compete for the 3rd CB position.

Keim has consistently guessed wrong or overpaid to retain young players. Bobby Massie should probably still be here. He's started 46 our of a potential 48 games with the Bears and he just turned 30. He bet on Daryl Washington instead of Karlos Dansby. Alex Okafor left for nothing and got 8.5 sacks over 2 years in New Orleans. He won't be 30 for another 2 years and signed a deal for less than $5 million a year with KC.

These are moves that we should be able to make instead of signing Terrell Suggs and Brooks Reed.

 

[JeffGollin]

Thread title suggests "What's going on at Training Camp."

Content is 90% Murray (& those who love or hate him).

C'mon man!

 

[Jetstream Green]

Something I noticed, guys at camp do not seem to be talking too much about Butler. They had those interviews with Fitz and I got the feel that Isabella has a long way to go too. I think he talks about him being the best after the catch since he is so fast but it was almost like he was saying 'if' he would get in the right position and catch the ball because he really does not address him in name other than that, while I do not recall him mentioning Butler at all. I really hope Kevin White comes through because right now it seems like Fitz, Kirk and hopefully White can do the job with Johnson providing a steady safety valve for the QB. Removed of recent with a few guys, WRs usually take about two years to get comfortable but I still feel we drafted Isabella way too early while I expect Butler to be a project and drafted accordingly for what he might become with his attributes

 

[slanidrac16]

I just wish the Murray talk would focus on today and tomorrow.

No more debates about we should or shouldn’t have drafted him.
No more he did it in college but.
No more I don’t think he is 5’10”.
No more he’ll be and epic failure or a transcendent player who’s going to revolutionize the sport.

Let’s watch him today. Then watch him tomorrow. Let’s grade what he is doing now.

Do that and we can stay away from the rhetoric.

 

[Solar7]

I just wish the Murray talk would focus on today and tomorrow.

No more debates about we should or shouldn’t have drafted him.
No more he did it in college but.
No more I don’t think he is 5’10”.
No more he’ll be and epic failure or a transcendent player who’s going to revolutionize the sport.

Let’s watch him today. Then watch him tomorrow. Let’s grade what he is doing now.

Do that and we can stay away from the rhetoric.

Unfortunately, for another month or so, we're not going to have a lot of here and now to talk about, at least for the folks who can't make it to camp.

Maybe next week we'll feel a little different, but vanilla preseason stuff probably won't fix the same old arguments.

 

[MadCardDisease]

Thread title suggests "What's going on at Training Camp."

Content is 90% Murray (& those who love or hate him).

C'mon man!

The thread title was correct for about one page. then

 

[BigRedRage]

I just wish the Murray talk would focus on today and tomorrow.

No more debates about we should or shouldn’t have drafted him.
No more he did it in college but.
No more I don’t think he is 5’10”.
No more he’ll be and epic failure or a transcendent player who’s going to revolutionize the sport.

Let’s watch him today. Then watch him tomorrow. Let’s grade what he is doing now.

Do that and we can stay away from the rhetoric.

slow clap

 

[MadCardDisease]

Something I noticed, guys at camp do not seem to be talking too much about Butler. They had those interviews with Fitz and I got the feel that Isabella has a long way to go too. I think he talks about him being the best after the catch since he is so fast but it was almost like he was saying 'if' he would get in the right position and catch the ball because he really does not address him in name other than that, while I do not recall him mentioning Butler at all. I really hope Kevin White comes through because right now it seems like Fitz, Kirk and hopefully White can do the job with Johnson providing a steady safety valve for the QB. Removed of recent with a few guys, WRs usually take about two years to get comfortable but I still feel we drafted Isabella way too early while I expect Butler to be a project and drafted accordingly for what he might become with his attributes

Butler is raw and looked a little bit stiff on some of his routes when I watched him on Friday. However his length is apparent the minute you see him. The dude towers over most DBs and man his arms are long.

This weekend he was unstoppable in the red zone against DBs in one on one drills. I believe that he had 3 TDs in a row during this drill. I think if he sees any time during the regular season it will be down in the Red Zone where his size is an asset. Here is video of his one handed TD reception where the DB didn't have a chance:

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[Jetstream Green]

Butler is raw and looked a little bit stiff on some of his routes when I watched him on Friday. However his length is apparent the minute you see him. The dude towers over most DBs and man his arms are long.

This weekend he was unstoppable in the red zone against DBs in one on one drills. I believe that he had 3 TDs in a row during this drill. I think if he sees any time during the regular season it will be down in the Red Zone where his size is an asset. Here is video of his one handed TD reception where the DB didn't have a chance:

xc_hide_links_from_guests_guests_error_hide_media

I guess in a 'Air Raid' offense he's our version of a TE by default lol

 

[devilalum]

slow clap

Right?

I get to be angry and bitter if I want to be angry and bitter. This is my right as a fan. I thinks it’s in Corinthians 13.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Krangodnzr]

So is your idea that Keim is a good GM who forgot how to do his job the last three seasons? I don't want to go through the litany of how Keim has failed at the top of the draft consistently during this tenure. In fact, I'd remind you that when this board was calling for Keim's head just 8 months ago, I was one of the few voices recommending caution and saying (1) I'm not convinced that Wilks was Keim's (first) choice and (2) even with available evidence, I think that Keim is a league-average GM who adequately manages the myriad tasks associated with his role.

LOL — well if PFT and Sporting News said so, it's probably true! Marvin Lewis and Mike Smith were coaches of the year in 2009 and 2008 as voted on by the Associated Press; we should've hired those guys to be head coach!

What has Keim shown since January 24, 2016 to show that he is more than an average GM instead of a giant thumb with a face drawn on it?

I know that Krang and other would love to retcon the last three years of average-to-execrable football into a story where every step is toward the glorious arrival of Kyler Murray (Krang has said before that signing Sam Bradford, even knowing what we know now, was Actually Good), but it's far more likely that if Murray and Kingsbury work out, it's more another lucky strike by a wildcatter than the result of a sound process (which would still be good!).

Lies.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Keim frustrates me more than anything. I feel like he did very little to maximize the window he created by trading for Palmer and hiring Arians. His drafts are consistently bad at the top, but with some pretty good picks in the middle. He has made some great post draft FA signings, but has failed to build consistency in the roster. He has failed to retain a lot of the talent that he brought in. He has alternated in being too passive in times addressing problems, but also has shown a willingness to gamble on players at times.

Totally agree.

I give him credit for the good years, but he seemed to gamble too often at the end of the Palmer window.

On 98.7 Bickley and Marotta were discussing Nkemdiche and they talked about how we all pretty much agreed at the time that RN was a gamble, but it wasnt a bad gamble at the time because the Cardinals were a pretty good team.

Too many moves like that. Brandon Williams. Chad Williams.

 

[PACardsFan]

Totally agree.

I give him credit for the good years, but he seemed to gamble too often at the end of the Palmer window.

On 98.7 Bickley and Marotta were discussing Nkemdiche and they talked about how we all pretty much agreed at the time that RN was a gamble, but it wasnt a bad gamble at the time because the Cardinals were a pretty good team.

Too many moves like that. Brandon Williams. Chad Williams.

The entire BASK "cowboy" mentality benefited the organization the first 2-3 years. Early on, they took risks that panned out in a nice way. Unfortunately, they got a little arrogant & the risks got the better of them. BASK was inseparable. They were both PA transplants, both neighbors in AZ, and BA had way too much influence over Keim throughout their relationship. They did everything together. They ate together, drank together, shopped together. Their families hung out together. They went to events in PA together also. Both times that I met BA at speaking events in York, PA, Keim was there also. They both grew up & went to HS in the York County area. As the only guy at these events in Cardinal gear, I had their ear for over 15 minutes each time I met them. Don't get me wrong, they are GREAT guys, both of them. But, they obviously felt that their system of doing things would always work. In the beginning, Michael was A-ok with this relationship. But, I think it wore thin once results started to level off on the field. Obviously, Michael didn't fire BA, but I think he definitely nudged him out the door. BA's health had something to do with it, but you could sense that Michael felt that the whole BASK relationship was at the point of limited returns. SK is like a son to MB. SK was always going to get another chance after the DUI. Exactly why I feel that hiring Wilks was MB's doing. It was a disaster, so MB couldn't/wouldn't hold Keim entirely responsible for 2018. Michael would give SK the benefit of the doubt this time, but I'm sure that Keim is on a PIP with Michael. This year will say a lot as far as SK's future with the Cardinals is concerned. I believe that SK learned a valuable lesson & will have a more business like relationship with KK.

 

[Krangodnzr]

The entire BASK "cowboy" mentality benefited the organization the first 2-3 years. Early on, they took risks that panned out in a nice way. Unfortunately, they got a little arrogant & the risks got the better of them. BASK was inseparable. They were both PA transplants, both neighbors in AZ, and BA had way too much influence over Keim throughout their relationship. They did everything together. They ate together, drank together, shopped together. Their families hung out together. They went to events in PA together also. Both times that I met BA at speaking events in York, PA, Keim was there also. They both grew up & went to HS in the York County area. As the only guy at these events in Cardinal gear, I had their ear for over 15 minutes each time I met them. Don't get me wrong, they are GREAT guys, both of them. But, they obviously felt that their system of doing things would always work. In the beginning, Michael was A-ok with this relationship. But, I think it wore thin once results started to level off on the field. Obviously, Michael didn't fire BA, but I think he definitely nudged him out the door. BA's health had something to do with it, but you could sense that Michael felt that the whole BASK relationship was at the point of limited returns. SK is like a son to MB. SK was always going to get another chance after the DUI. Exactly why I feel that hiring Wilks was MB's doing. It was a disaster, so MB couldn't/wouldn't hold Keim entirely responsible for 2018. Michael would give SK the benefit of the doubt this time, but I'm sure that Keim is on a PIP with Michael. This year will say a lot as far as SK's future with the Cardinals is concerned. I believe that SK learned a valuable lesson & will have a more business like relationship with KK.

The fact that Keim wasnt held accountable for last seasons debacle shows that MB doesn't fully fault him.

Wilks definitely went rogue on how he was going to handle the defense.

 

[BW52]

We "FINALLY have an answer at QB?" Dude, Kyler has two practices in pads under his belt. We have no freaking idea.

We wasted an entire year and almost an entire draft last year building the roster. Murray could be Joe Montana and he'll fail without young talent around him.

You mean that the transcendent player in the draft isn`t in the HOF already because he only had 2 practices in pads.
As the usual Murray hype train keeps rolling.

 

[Crimson Warrior]

So is your idea that Keim is a good GM who forgot how to do his job the last three seasons? I don't want to go through the litany of how Keim has failed at the top of the draft consistently during this tenure. In fact, I'd remind you that when this board was calling for Keim's head just 8 months ago, I was one of the few voices recommending caution and saying (1) I'm not convinced that Wilks was Keim's (first) choice and (2) even with available evidence, I think that Keim is a league-average GM who adequately manages the myriad tasks associated with his role.

LOL — well if PFT and Sporting News said so, it's probably true! Marvin Lewis and Mike Smith were coaches of the year in 2009 and 2008 as voted on by the Associated Press; we should've hired those guys to be head coach!

What has Keim shown since January 24, 2016 to show that he is more than an average GM instead of a giant thumb with a face drawn on it?

I know that Krang and other would love to retcon the last three years of average-to-execrable football into a story where every step is toward the glorious arrival of Kyler Murray (Krang has said before that signing Sam Bradford, even knowing what we know now, was Actually Good), but it's far more likely that if Murray and Kingsbury work out, it's more another lucky strike by a wildcatter than the result of a sound process (which would still be good!).

Not debating you on the idea that Keim performed poorly in organizing/managing the team, particularly for the 2017 and 2018 seasons.

Can I offer a theory as to why that occurred, but that also provides for the possibility of his return to GM-of the-year status? Btw, that's an accolade I don't overvalue, but I think it counts for something.

What if Keim developed an alcohol problem say, sometime during 2015, which grew progressively worse until his DUI incident a year ago.

And what if the DUI incident caused him to become sober, and to refocus his GM duties? So that now he's performing similarly to what he did during the earlier, successful years of his tenure?

I think there's a fair possibility that's what we're witnessing right now. This is at least a plausible explanation for all the questionable decisions leading up to the 2017 and 2018 seasons, and also for what has been, in my opinion, an a very good 2019 off-season.

 

[kerouac9]

Not debating you on the idea that Keim performed poorly in organizing/managing the team, particularly for the 2017 and 2018 seasons.

Can I offer a theory as to why that occurred, but that also provides for the possibility of his return to GM-of the-year status? Btw, that's an accolade I don't overvalue, but I think it counts for something.

What if Keim developed an alcohol problem say, sometime during 2015, which grew progressively worse until his DUI incident a year ago.

And what if the DUI incident caused him to become sober, and to refocus his GM duties? So that now he's performing similarly to what he did during the earlier, successful years of his tenure?

I think there's a fair possibility that's what we're witnessing right now. This is at least a plausible explanation for all the questionable decisions leading up to the 2017 and 2018 seasons, and also for what has been, in my opinion, an a very good 2019 off-season.

Mostly because many people are saying the Keim isn't sober — even today. What if Keim was kidnapped by aliens and was replaced by Ryan Grigson wearing a Steve Keim suit? Now Keim has returned and is ready to take over. That story is just as likely as yours.

 

[football karma]

Not debating you on the idea that Keim performed poorly in organizing/managing the team, particularly for the 2017 and 2018 seasons.

Can I offer a theory as to why that occurred, but that also provides for the possibility of his return to GM-of the-year status? Btw, that's an accolade I don't overvalue, but I think it counts for something.

What if Keim developed an alcohol problem say, sometime during 2015, which grew progressively worse until his DUI incident a year ago.

And what if the DUI incident caused him to become sober, and to refocus his GM duties? So that now he's performing similarly to what he did during the earlier, successful years of his tenure?

I think there's a fair possibility that's what we're witnessing right now. This is at least a plausible explanation for all the questionable decisions leading up to the 2017 and 2018 seasons, and also for what has been, in my opinion, an a very good 2019 off-season.

Occams razor:

success makes people cocky. SK thought he had it all figured out. BA thought he had it all figured out. I think the cockiness of both had them take risks in the draft on uber-athletes -

SK got humbled over the last 12 months.

 

[cardncubfan]

Mostly because many people are saying the Keim isn't sober — even today. What if Keim was kidnapped by aliens and was replaced by Ryan Grigson wearing a Steve Keim suit? Now Keim has returned and is ready to take over. That story is just as likely as yours.

Lies

 

[Solar7]

Mostly because many people are saying the Keim isn't sober — even today. What if Keim was kidnapped by aliens and was replaced by Ryan Grigson wearing a Steve Keim suit? Now Keim has returned and is ready to take over. That story is just as likely as yours.

I'll also say that getting sober isn't some magical remedy to everything. It's not really a fair view.

 

[Solar7]

Lies

I actually lol'd at this post, because it was such a super dry response.

Invasion of the body snatchers isn't more likely, I'll give you that.

 

[cardncubfan]

I actually lol'd at this post, because it was such a super dry response.

Invasion of the body snatchers isn't more likely, I'll give you that.