Markelle Fultz

[slinslin]

Now for Lonzo Balls teammates

Ike Anigbogu - Rivals #25 2016, ESPN #60, 4 Star 84 Grade
TJ Leaf - Rivals #16 2016, ESPN 13th, 5 Star, 94 Grade
Bryce Alford - unranked 2013, ESPN 3 Star, 75 Grade
Isaac Hamilton -Rivals #14, 2013 ESPN Ranked #32, 4 Star, 89 Grade
Aaron Holiday - Rivals #60 , 2015 ESPN Ranked #88, 82 Grade
Thomas Welsh - Rivals #41 , 2014 ESPN Ranked #36, 4 Star, 88 Grade

The worst is Alford and he has been projected as a 2nd round pick in past mockdrafts by DX and nbadraft.net.

Not to mention that Alford and Hamilton were seniors, Welsh a junior. They had a ton more experience on top of being higher rated.

It is like saying Kevin Love is a winner compared to Anthony Davis and Demarcus Cousins.


Expanding for Fultz teammates
David Crisp - unranked 2015, ESPN unranked, 3 star, 75 rating
Noah Dickerson - Rivals #81 2015, ESPN #52, 4 star
Mathisse Thybulle - Rivals #130 2015, ESPN unranked, 4 star
Malik Dime - unranked 2015, unranked on ESPN, unrated
Dominick Green - unranked 2015, unranked on ESPN, 72 rating
Carlos Johnson - unranked 2016, unranked on ESPN, 2 Star, 66 rating
Sam Timmins - unranked 2016, unranked on ESPN, unrated


But yeah let me summarize this for you

TLDR: Lonzo Ball's teammates only good because of Lonzo Ball. Markelle Fultz teammates not good because of Markelle Fultz.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Slin. Why don't you just admit that winning is a factor? Its not the only factor, but it is a factor. You just keep digging yourself deeper.

You argued that UW is a perennial loser and so record should not be a factor. But I clearly demonstrated that UW has been a perennial winner with the NBA caliber players you mentioned.

Comparing the rosters of UW and UCLA is pointless. We already know the UCLA roster is much better. No one is saying that UW has to have a better record than UCLA, not even close. UW just was dismally bad. You would think that putting the #1 player in the NBA draft on almost ANY division one roster should at least elevate that team to mediocrity.

Comparing Fultz and UW to AD and the Pelicans is apples and oranges. The level of play in the NBA is much higher, smaller differences in talent make bigger differences in records. An individual player in the NBA cannot carry a team like he should be able to in college.

I am done. I've made my point to the best of my ability. Anything else I say is just repeating.

 

[Russ Smith]

Now for Lonzo Balls teammates

Ike Anigbogu - Rivals #25 2016, ESPN #60, 4 Star 84 Grade
TJ Leaf - Rivals #16 2016, ESPN 13th, 5 Star, 94 Grade
Bryce Alford - unranked 2013, ESPN 3 Star, 75 Grade
Isaac Hamilton -Rivals #14, 2013 ESPN Ranked 32nd, 4 Star, 89 Grade
Aaron Holiday - Rivals #60 , 2015 ESPN Ranked #88, 82 Grade
Thomas Welsh - Rivals #41 , 2014 ESPN Ranked #36, 4 Star, 88 Grade

The worst is Alford and he has been projected as a 2nd round pick in past mockdrafts by DX and nbadraft.net.

Not to mention that Alford and Hamilton were seniors, Welsh a junior. They had a ton more experience on top of being higher rated.

It is like saying Kevin Love is a winner compared to Anthony Davis and Demarcus Cousins.


Expanding for Fultz teammates
David Crisp - unranked 2015, ESPN unranked, 3 star, 75 rating
Noah Dickerson - Rivals #81 2015, ESPN #52, 4 star
Mathisse Thybulle - Rivals #130 2015, ESPN unranked, 4 star
Malik Dime - unranked 2015, unranked on ESPN, not even rated
Dominick Green - unranked 2015, unranked on ESPN, 72 rating
Carlos Johnson - unranked 2016, unranked on ESPN, 2 Star, 66 rating
Sam Timmins - unranked 2016, unranked on ESPN, unrated


But yeah let me summarize this for you

TLDR: Lonzo Ball's teammates only good because of Lonzo Ball. Markelle Fultz teammates not good because of Markelle Fultz.

So if we reversed the 2 players UCLA would have won more than 31 and UW would have won less than 8?

23 wins is a massive difference

 

[slinslin]

So if we reversed the 2 players UCLA would have won more than 31 and UW would have won less than 8?

23 wins is a massive difference

Most likely yes, maybe more dramatic since Lonzo Ball on Romars offense would be hopeless.

 

[slinslin]

Slin. Why don't you just admit that winning is a factor? Its not the only factor, but it is a factor. You just keep digging yourself deeper.

It is not, Fultz has no highly rated teammates and played with a bunch of other freshman and sophomores.

Teammates without talent and without experience.

To win in the NCAA you need strong recruiting classes and/or decent juniors and seniors on your team. Washington had none of that, they had Fultz and nothing more.

 

[TJ]

Now for Lonzo Balls teammates

Ike Anigbogu - Rivals #25 2016, ESPN #60, 4 Star 84 Grade
TJ Leaf - Rivals #16 2016, ESPN 13th, 5 Star, 94 Grade
Bryce Alford - unranked 2013, ESPN 3 Star, 75 Grade
Isaac Hamilton -Rivals #14, 2013 ESPN Ranked #32, 4 Star, 89 Grade
Aaron Holiday - Rivals #60 , 2015 ESPN Ranked #88, 82 Grade
Thomas Welsh - Rivals #41 , 2014 ESPN Ranked #36, 4 Star, 88 Grade

The worst is Alford and he has been projected as a 2nd round pick in past mockdrafts by DX and nbadraft.net.

Not to mention that Alford and Hamilton were seniors, Welsh a junior. They had a ton more experience on top of being higher rated.

It is like saying Kevin Love is a winner compared to Anthony Davis and Demarcus Cousins.


Expanding for Fultz teammates
David Crisp - unranked 2015, ESPN unranked, 3 star, 75 rating
Noah Dickerson - Rivals #81 2015, ESPN #52, 4 star
Mathisse Thybulle - Rivals #130 2015, ESPN unranked, 4 star
Malik Dime - unranked 2015, unranked on ESPN, unrated
Dominick Green - unranked 2015, unranked on ESPN, 72 rating
Carlos Johnson - unranked 2016, unranked on ESPN, 2 Star, 66 rating
Sam Timmins - unranked 2016, unranked on ESPN, unrated


But yeah let me summarize this for you

TLDR: Lonzo Ball's teammates only good because of Lonzo Ball. Markelle Fultz teammates not good because of Markelle Fultz.

And UCLA was a sub .500 team the year before Ball game.

What's your point?

 

[Chris_Sanders]

Who was the last superstar in the NBA whose team in college lost as badly as Fultz?

I just posted it. Paul George at Fresno State

 

[Chris_Sanders]

Nobody projected him or Klay as the first pick in the draft.

Correct but there is a precedent for All Star level players having bad college careers. I only looked at the current All Star Team though.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

I am going to enjoy this thread in 2 years. Either way it will be a good chuckle.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I am going to enjoy this thread in 2 years. Either way it will be a good chuckle.

So true. So true.

 

[Russ Smith]

Most likely yes, maybe more dramatic since Lonzo Ball on Romars offense would be hopeless.

So the guy you say can only operate in the open court would be hope

Correct but there is a precedent for All Star level players having bad college careers. I only looked at the current All Star Team though.

Right but again George is the classic late bloomer, Fultz isn't he was a McD's AA and one of the more highly recruited players in his class.

The thing with Fultz that gets brought up lots by NBA scouts is how incredibly polished he is for a kid his age. that's because he's been working out with a pro trainer for 11 years, Keith Williams, the same guy that works out Durant and a bunch of other NBA guys. That would suggest to me Fultz has less room to get better than the average kid his age because he's been trained at a higher level.

If you just compare him and Ball, one guy was trained by his dad who I don't think anybody thinks is a good trainer, the other was trained by a guy who regularly works with NBA players.

I don't dislike Fultz he's a very polished offensive player. Don MacLean does player training professionally, he prefers Fultz and he's actually been pretty negative on Lonzo recently. But on Fultz he said he's the most polished offensive player I've seen in college in at least 10 years. He means that as a compliment but there's the other side of it, other than getting older and stronger he probably has less room to improve than most players in this draft.

It's like the argument we see now in the NFL, would you prefer Matt Barkley who's had a pro QB coach since he was 10, or a guy who's just figuring out what he's doing and is going to improve significantly when exposed to pro coaching.

But for me the biggest issue I had with Fultz this season is he wasn't what he was advertised to be, this hungry kid with a chip on his shoulder still mad he had to play JV as a soph in HS. Those are the kids I love, the ones who want it more than anybody else on the court. I just never saw that from him.

 

[slinslin]

And UCLA was a sub .500 team the year before Ball game.

What's your point?

They still had the talent, they won the year before that, they just had a poor year. They kept everyone and added 3 top rated players.

Lol

Washington lost all of their top players. They had only sophomores and freshman playing and besides Fultz none of them good.

 

[Russ Smith]

They still had the talent, they won the year before that, they just had a poor year. They kept everyone and added 3 top rated players.

Lol

Washington lost all of their top players. They had only sophomores and freshman playing and besides Fultz none of them good.

No they didn't. They were 16-12 and then finished 8-2 down the stretch including that fluky win over SMU where the kid goaltended the shot to lose the game.So 22-14 could have easily been 21-14. That's winning but it's not even remotely close to how good they were this year. And they lost the 2 best players off that team, Powell and Looney and finished 15-17, or 6 games worse.

UCLA absolutely had more talent than UW did, but not 23 more wins talent. UCLA was better than predicted before the season started, largely because of Lonzo and Leaf and the offense, UW was considerably worse than predicted. They had injuries but the single biggest issue they had was a terrible defense that was in part because the guard defense with Fultz and Crisp was so bad it exposed their inside guys. Which is why when Dime got hurt and had to sit out they played so poorly.

They were 8-7 when he got hurt, 1-10 without him, and 0-5 when he came back playing with the hand heavily wrapped so he was basically playing 1 handed. When your guards don't guard anybody not having your rim protector in the back is a huge deal.

 

[Bodha]

IDKW this is even a conversation.

Fultz is significantly better than Ball.

In fact there are 4 players I would take before Ball:

Fultz
Jackson
Tatum
Markkanen
and then Ball

 

[mojorizen7]

Throw out the measurables, intangibles, wins and losses.
Which PG is funner to watch?
That's who the Suns will pick if given the choice.

 

[Cheesebeef]

IDKW this is even a conversation.

Fultz is significantly better than Ball.

In fact there are 4 players I would take before Ball:

Fultz
Jackson
Tatum
Markkanen
and then Ball

Markkanen? Come on... that's just insane.

 

[Phrazbit]

I'm with Slin on this one. At Washington Fultz was saddled with an inept coach and a teeeeeeerrible batch of "talent" around him. I really like Ball, my only hesitation with him is his bizarre shooting form, but Fultz is legit and I don't remotely question if he was or was not beneficial to Washington.

Fultz is the safest pick in the draft. IMO, worst case he is a scoring machine who gives it all back on the other end... but those kinds of players are easily marketable and tradable. While Ball, I think he could be incredible, but I dunno if his scoring ability will translate to the NBA, in other areas I think he will be solid. Jackson is the riskiest pick but if he is the next Jimmie Butler or something then he's also the best fit for this team... however there is as equally a good chance that he is the next Kidd-Gilchrist.

 

[Bodha]

Markkanen? Come on... that's just insane.

No its not. Elite scorer. Greater need.


Leonard Fournette might be the next Adrian Peterson. Is it insane if we pass on him? Nope. Same concept.

 

[slinslin]

Markannen is more like the next Okur, he has no business in a discussion about the top 4.

 

[sunsfan88]

The love for Markannen likely just stems from him playing for U of A.

 

[Russ Smith]

No its not. Elite scorer. Greater need.


Leonard Fournette might be the next Adrian Peterson. Is it insane if we pass on him? Nope. Same concept.

He's a great shooter and will be a very good pro but as an outsider I see the Suns needs as more defense, rebounding, rim protection. Only Denver and the Lakers were worse in Defensive efficiency. Markkanen is a great player, but he's not going to help the Suns defense, he's not a great rebounder for his size and he's not a rim protector.

If you're going to draft a big for need, Phoenix needs more defense, but there really isn't that sort of player in this draft IMO, not ready enough to pick as early as the Suns pick. That's why Jackson might make sense he's not a big rim protector but he has the potential to be a great defender.

 

[Bodha]

He's a great shooter and will be a very good pro but as an outsider I see the Suns needs as more defense, rebounding, rim protection. Only Denver and the Lakers were worse in Defensive efficiency. Markkanen is a great player, but he's not going to help the Suns defense, he's not a great rebounder for his size and he's not a rim protector.

If you're going to draft a big for need, Phoenix needs more defense, but there really isn't that sort of player in this draft IMO, not ready enough to pick as early as the Suns pick. That's why Jackson might make sense he's not a big rim protector but he has the potential to be a great defender.

Thats why Marks not my #1 player. Id rather have Jackson for defense. And I agree we do need a center/rim protector. But the bad news is there isnt one available in this draft. Lonzo Ball isnt a rim protector either, so its not like Im taking Markkanen over one.

Jackson easily is the best choice. Fills multiple needs.

But speaking on Marks, he has more value to us than Ball. We have Bledsoe and Ulis. Ulis is absolutely a starting caliber PG in the NBA. In his soul 1 month as a starter he earned rookie of the month. Double double nearly every night.

Marks is a huge PF/SF who shoots the lights out. Our only real scorer is Booker. Whats Ball going to do? He cant pass us back from 15 points down. We need scorers. We have PGs

 

[Russ Smith]

Thats why Marks not my #1 player. Id rather have Jackson for defense. And I agree we do need a center/rim protector. But the bad news is there isnt one available in this draft. Lonzo Ball isnt a rim protector either, so its not like Im taking Markkanen over one.

Jackson easily is the best choice. Fills multiple needs.

But speaking on Marks, he has more value to us than Ball. We have Bledsoe and Ulis. Ulis is absolutely a starting caliber PG in the NBA. In his soul 1 month as a starter he earned rookie of the month. Double double nearly every night.

Marks is a huge PF/SF who shoots the lights out. Our only real scorer is Booker. Whats Ball going to do? He cant pass us back from 15 points down. We need scorers. We have PGs

I love Ulis but I'm not sure you can be a good defensive team with him. Watch the game against the Warriors a few weeks ago, Watson left him effectively guarding Curry 1 on 1 . The Warriors didn't have Green, Iggy or Durant so Watson decided to test his young guys and see how they handled it. When the first quarter was over, Curry had 23. The Warriors just sort of coasted the rest of the way, won, Curry had 42.

I'm not saying there's anything embarassing about giving up 42 to Curry he's a 2 time MVP, but it was pretty apparent that Ulis as good as he is has issues defending guys who can just shoot over him and there's a lot of PG's in the NBA big enough to do that.

I'm not the one saying you should draft Lonzo, that is apparently what your GM thinks at least that's been reported he has Lonzo #1 on the board. I think Lonzo fits many teams well, Fultz fits many teams well and Jackson will fit many teams well.

as someone else has pointed out if you have to trade Bledsoe after drafting Lonzo, unless you get good value in the trade it's almost worth drafting someone at another position so you have both Bledsoe and the draft pick.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

The more I hear all sides of the argument the more I think both guys will nightly have their hands in about 40 a night. It may be 24 and 8 from Fultz or 16 and 12 from Ball.

 

[Bodha]

I love Ulis but I'm not sure you can be a good defensive team with him. Watch the game against the Warriors a few weeks ago, Watson left him effectively guarding Curry 1 on 1 . The Warriors didn't have Green, Iggy or Durant so Watson decided to test his young guys and see how they handled it. When the first quarter was over, Curry had 23. The Warriors just sort of coasted the rest of the way, won, Curry had 42.

I'm not saying there's anything embarassing about giving up 42 to Curry he's a 2 time MVP, but it was pretty apparent that Ulis as good as he is has issues defending guys who can just shoot over him and there's a lot of PG's in the NBA big enough to do that.

I'm not the one saying you should draft Lonzo, that is apparently what your GM thinks at least that's been reported he has Lonzo #1 on the board. I think Lonzo fits many teams well, Fultz fits many teams well and Jackson will fit many teams well.

as someone else has pointed out if you have to trade Bledsoe after drafting Lonzo, unless you get good value in the trade it's almost worth drafting someone at another position so you have both Bledsoe and the draft pick.

Thats a completely unbalanced and unfair measure. "Ulis got lit up by Steph curry". Well who doesnt? Ulis has the 1 thing all great defenders have, and thats the desire to be a great defender. Ulis is scrappy and tries very hard. He can absolutely improve. Unlike guys like Melo who have no interest in even learning to play defense. Ulis has excellent court vision, scoring ability and the willpower to become a good defender. Thats an easy decision for me.

And im not surprised by Mcdonoughs preference for Ball over Fultz. That mush headed moron has been nothing but a disgrace to Valley sports since he got here. It infuriates me hes still employed. Youd think Sarver wouldve realized this putz has no long term vision after the B.Knight/Lakers pick/Isiah Thomas/Dragic trainwreck.

The guys done nothing right since he got here. Except for draft Booker. And how long is he going to milk that? We might pick #1 overall for the 1st time in Suns history. That tells me our GM is the worst GM we've had in suns history.