Marquese Chriss

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I’m now convinced it’s slin.

 

[AZCrazy]

Watching the games up close, as in being in the building, it's easy to see the difference in one simple aspect of their approach to the game, since neither is ready to dominate at age 20. It's maturity. Bender puts his head down and works hard, not always effectively, but he's a bulldog. Chriss loses his composure when something doesn't go his way. He'll turn his back to the play several times a game making faces to the bench or complaining to a ref.

 

[elindholm]

Slinslin's rhetoric is offensive, but I agree with his point. I watched the Grizzlies game from early in the second quarter, and I honestly think that the Suns' broadcast team has been instructed to talk up Bender at every conceivable opportunity. Every time he made it through a couple of possessions without wetting himself, Eddie Johnson would figure out some reason to praise him. It became truly absurd. And for every time he made some sort of marginally positive defensive impact, there were at least two others when he got completely schooled.

Bender does have some nice mobility, his shooting has improved a little, and he keeps his head up and pays attention. Those are good things. His body language looks positive even when he's playing terribly, and that's also good, because it suggests that he's focused on learning. Once in a while he shows some understanding of help defense, but I don't think he does it particularly often. His "high basketball IQ" on offense manifests mainly as floor spacing, which is a result of him not being able to do anything other than shoot threes.

Accusing people of racism on the basis of flimsy circumstantial evidence is cruel and dishonest. It was absolutely not justifiable in this case. Having said that, the Suns have a long history of overvaluing white players. This is not too surprising; studies show that most Americans have some degree of bias toward whites. Bender deserves a shot as much as Chriss does, and I agree that Chriss doesn't look good either right now, but the organization's artificial propping up of Bender is starting to get a little creepy.

 

[Haunting]

Slin,

You obviously haven't seen a single game. Now go hug your Chriss teddy bear and look at your Chriss poster, and leave us on this board alone so we can have civilized discussions.

You want civilized discussion yet looking at your post history 50% or more of your Suns posts are nothing other than bashing Chriss at every opportunity and talk up Bender.

It is at least in a sense consistent with your past schemes of bashing on athletic players (Amare, Bledsoe, Chriss) you claim have no bbiq while bascially getting erect at every mention of a European NBA player or draft prospect (Dragic, Hezonja, Bender etc)

 

[SirStefan32]

You want civilized discussion yet looking at your post history 50% or more of your Suns posts are nothing other than bashing Chriss at every opportunity and talk up Bender.

It is at least in a sense consistent with your past schemes of bashing on athletic players (Amare, Bledsoe, Chriss) you claim have no bbiq while bascially getting erect at every mention of a European NBA player or draft prospect (Dragic, Hezonja, Bender etc)

Good Lord, what the hell is wrong with you, dude? You seriously need help.

I am on the record (wrongly, it looks like) claiming Chriss would be a better player. I am 100% certain I've praised Chriss plenty of times when his play warranted praise. I am sorry, but he is awful right now.

Athleticism vs. Basketball IQ is actually a very interesting and valid argument. I don't claim to be right in every instance, and hell, I don't claim to be right half the time, but it is an interesting thing to discuss. I most definitely do prefer high basketball IQ vs. the ability to jump. Yes, I most definitely prefer Dragic to Bledsoe, Bender to Chriss (right now- I was wrong in my initial assessment). Yes, I think that Amare was not a particularly smart player- that's not a controversial opinion. I don't know anyone with any credibility who would argue that Amare had high basketball IQ. Not sure about Hezonja- I don't really remember how high or low I was on Hezonja. If he gave me a *****, as you claim, then my erection was misplaced. I have no problem admitting I am wrong. If you look through my posts, I am sure you will find plenty of posts of me making fun of my own judgement when it comes to player evaluations. You should learn from that.

Now go get some help dude. You anger and hostility are just really concerning. Nobody should be getting this worked up over some basketball players on a message board.

 

[Haunting]

Just tell me more how the guy averaging 5.2ppg 2.3rpg 0.7apg on 34%FG in 20.8mpg over the last 11 games (December) earned the right to start


https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/bendedr01/gamelog/2018#67-77-sum:pgl_basic


Chriss is averaging 5.9ppg 4.2rpg 1.1apg on 40.7%FG in 20.1mpg over the same stretch.

 

[Russ Smith]

I have to say it always amazes me when people who get banned come back under a new name. First off does it ever work, do people ever not figure out who it is? And secondly, why is a message board so important to people if they get banned they have to register under a new name to come back and argue more?

I like Chriss but as I've said before it's because I saw him play in HS, I saw him before his growth spurt, so he's someone I followed a bit as he came up so I'm pulling for him more than anything.

his issue has always been he's a guard who suddenly found himself in a PF's body and he's completely relearning how to play now because he's not a guard anymore. Both at UW, and in the NBA his problem is he loves to dunk and block shots, but he doesn't seem to like to bang or do the dirty work required of a 4, he wants to still be a guard. Last year was somewhat a lost year for him because of the coaching situation, he played but he really didn't get a ton of development because Watson was in over his head.

He's talented but he's a very young and raw player. I actually agree with some a week or 2 in the G league might do him wonders letting him play more minutes and experience some success again to get his confidence back.

 

[SirStefan32]

Just tell me more how the guy averaging 5.2ppg 2.3rpg 0.7apg on 34%FG in 20.8mpg over the last 11 games (December) earned the right to start


https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/bendedr01/gamelog/2018#67-77-sum:pgl_basic


Chriss is averaging 5.9ppg 4.2rpg 1.1apg on 40.7%FG in 20.1mpg over the same stretch.

Defense, attitude, effort, what the team looks like when he is on the floor. Don't get me wrong, Bender is not tearing it up out there. It's more about Chriss being god-awful than about Bender being amazing. I know you don't watch games, but Chriss looks terrible out there. His body language is awful, his attitude is horrific, his effort is non-existent, as is his defense.

 

[ColdPickleNachos]

I really hope we're having this heated debate three years from now because Chriss and Bender are both so good it's hard to determine who is better.

Right now, neither one is a good NBA player. Statistics mean little to me because they are (hopefully) far from finished products. Based on the eye test, I'd probably lean towards having more hope for Bender, but I'm very much open to Chriss developing into the more important player for the Suns. Who ends up being better, or who is better right now, seems more a matter of personal preference than anything, because both are putting up stats that are hot garbage.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Defense, attitude, effort, what the team looks like when he is on the floor. Don't get me wrong, Bender is not tearing it up out there. It's more about Chriss being god-awful than about Bender being amazing. I know you don't watch games, but Chriss looks terrible out there. His body language is awful, his attitude is horrific, his effort is non-existent, as is his defense.

Bender is making a huge difference in non-stat areas. His defense and floor spacing is excellent.

Let me put it this way. If we put both of them up for trade, we would have people beating our door down for Bender, there would be crickets chirping in the Chriss corner.

 

[AsUpRoDiGy]

You don't need advanced stats to tell you that Chriss is putting in almost 0 effort.

 

[Raze]

Markkanen is shooting 41% from the Field and 32% from 3!

Chriss shot 44% and 35% from 3 as a rookie. It is clear that Chriss is the biggest loser from the lack of PG play that the Suns have.

Their rebounding% is close to within a percent.

See my point, verify what you write. You are still blinded by Lauris first 10 games.

(Toggling Basketball topics off)

Wow, I feel like I walked into the middle of a 20 year old family feud here.

I'm truly sorry for whatever happened to you to make you this way. It's apparent with all your negativity and lashing out that you got struck pretty hard. Again, sorry that happened. I know you aren't gonna listen to a random dude on the Suns forum, but this isn't the best place to work this out. There are plenty of wonderful people out there that are willing to listen. It's the perfect season for it. A local church might be a great place to start.

Anyways, Merry Christmas... or whatever PC thing I'm supposed to say these days as to not offend anyone. God bless.

Psalms 27:10

(Toggle Basketball topics on)

 

[SirStefan32]

Bender is making a huge difference in non-stat areas. His defense and floor spacing is excellent.

Right, exactly. It's the simple things- he contests shots properly- go straight up. Chriss reaches. If Bender gets beat off the dribble, he doesn't foul like Chris does. When he gets a rebound, he hand the ball to the PG within a second. He doesn't look lost out there. He just looks like someone who understands the game of basketball. Things are still happening a little too fast for him, he slips back into not putting enough arc on his shot, not jumping when shooting jumpers, and things like that, and he is still not aggressive enough, but he looks like someone who understands the game and has a good attitude. Chriss just looks lazy and miserable. I don't know what happened to him during the off season, but he is just not the same player we all saw and liked last year.

 

[elindholm]

If we put both of them up for trade, we would have people beating our door down for Bender, there would be crickets chirping in the Chriss corner.

I think that's completely incorrect, although obviously there's no way to know.

Bender has the right attitude but a deficit of physical talent. Floor spacing is not a talent. Even height and mobility aren't talents. "Basketball IQ," if indeed Bender has that, isn't a talent either. My proof of that is that many posters on this board seem to have high basketball IQs, but they are miles short of being NBA players. Having a notion of how to get into the right place at the right time, or recognizing opportunities for team offensive play, are fairly straightforward intellectual skills. The talent is being able to combine those intellectual skills with world-class athletic ability.

Chriss, in his best moments, looks like a much better player than Bender in his best moments. Admittedly, Chriss's best moments have been absent from this season. The challenge for Chriss is getting his head into the game mentally and learning how to see the game from outside his own narrow perspective. Maybe he'll never get that. But his physical tools are far, far beyond Bender's.

Neither player would be in the league if not for his height, but the reasons are different. In Chriss's case, it would be because there are too many other players who are better. In Bender's case, he would have utterly no conceivable role on an NBA team if he were 6' 7" or shorter.

 

[Mainstreet]

The only reason why people claim Bender has a basketball IQ is because he is a white Euro player. It is 100% based on prejudice.

No stats can possibly support that argument whatsoever.


Bender has a 6% assist rate and 8% rebounding rate. That is god awful. And a 15.5% Turnover rate.

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It is laughable how the supposed IQ player is a worse passer and turns the ball over more than someone who supposedly has the lowest basketball IQ in the league.

How do you explain that?

How do you rate Chriss' nonchalant attitude towards the game?

If he played up to his ability he would be a much better player.

Bender may be a year behind but I see effort when I see him play. He is trying to learn the game.

Haunting, I like your basketball knowledge a lot. The forum can use your perspective.

However, is it so hard to discuss your opinions without insulting posters. Just leave off some of some of the adjectives. If you are right, the information you present speaks for itself.

 

[JCSunsfan]

I think that's completely incorrect, although obviously there's no way to know.

Bender has the right attitude but a deficit of physical talent. Floor spacing is not a talent. Even height and mobility aren't talents. "Basketball IQ," if indeed Bender has that, isn't a talent either. My proof of that is that many posters on this board seem to have high basketball IQs, but they are miles short of being NBA players. Having a notion of how to get into the right place at the right time, or recognizing opportunities for team offensive play, are fairly straightforward intellectual skills. The talent is being able to combine those intellectual skills with world-class athletic ability.

Chriss, in his best moments, looks like a much better player than Bender in his best moments. Admittedly, Chriss's best moments have been absent from this season. The challenge for Chriss is getting his head into the game mentally and learning how to see the game from outside his own narrow perspective. Maybe he'll never get that. But his physical tools are far, far beyond Bender's.

Neither player would be in the league if not for his height, but the reasons are different. In Chriss's case, it would be because there are too many other players who are better. In Bender's case, he would have utterly no conceivable role on an NBA team if he were 6' 7" or shorter.

Man. I just don't get your evaluation of Bender. It's like we are looking at two completely different people. Of course, if he were 6-7 or shorter he would not be nearly as valuable. But he is 7-1. If Marc Gasol were 6-7 or shorter, he might not make a college roster.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Bender is making a huge difference in non-stat areas. His defense and floor spacing is excellent.

Let me put it this way. If we put both of them up for trade, we would have people beating our door down for Bender, there would be crickets chirping in the Chriss corner.

a HUGE difference and teams would be beating down our door for him?

Come on guys... gotta have some objectivity on this forum to have real conversations.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I have to say it always amazes me when people who get banned come back under a new name. First off does it ever work, do people ever not figure out who it is? And secondly, why is a message board so important to people if they get banned they have to register under a new name to come back and argue more?

I like Chriss but as I've said before it's because I saw him play in HS, I saw him before his growth spurt, so he's someone I followed a bit as he came up so I'm pulling for him more than anything.

his issue has always been he's a guard who suddenly found himself in a PF's body and he's completely relearning how to play now because he's not a guard anymore. Both at UW, and in the NBA his problem is he loves to dunk and block shots, but he doesn't seem to like to bang or do the dirty work required of a 4, he wants to still be a guard. Last year was somewhat a lost year for him because of the coaching situation, he played but he really didn't get a ton of development because Watson was in over his head.

He's talented but he's a very young and raw player. I actually agree with some a week or 2 in the G league might do him wonders letting him play more minutes and experience some success again to get his confidence back.

This an interesting take. I hadn’t thought about this being transition-related. But it makes sense. Makes coaching so much more important to his development.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Bender is making a huge difference in non-stat areas. His defense and floor spacing is excellent.

Let me put it this way. If we put both of them up for trade, we would have people beating our door down for Bender, there would be crickets chirping in the Chriss corner.

To be honest I don’t think anyone would be beating down our door for either.

 

[Chaplin]

a HUGE difference and teams would be beating down our door for him?

Come on guys... gotta have some objectivity on this forum to have real conversations.

I have to agree. I like Bender a lot more than Chriss, but I think the safe thing to say is that if both were put up for trade, we would probably get more inquiries for Bender than for Chriss. But nobody would be beating down the door for them.

 

[SirStefan32]

Man. I just don't get your evaluation of Bender. It's like we are looking at two completely different people. Of course, if he were 6-7 or shorter he would not be nearly as valuable. But he is 7-1. If Marc Gasol were 6-7 or shorter, he might not make a college roster.

Yeah, Eric is one of my favorite posters here, but on this one, I just have to completely disagree with him. It really is almost as if though we are watching two different players.

 

[Matt L]

To be honest I don’t think anyone would be beating down our door for either.

if they were on another team, I wouldn't beat down anyone's door for them

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

if they were on another team, I wouldn't beat down anyone's door for them

Exactly. And we are starved for talent.

 

[Matt L]

When someone put a poll up to pick between the two, I chose Chriss because of his athleticism and size. I now think Bender will be the better pro because I have actually seen him create something with the basketball in his hands and I've seen him be in the right position on defense. It isn't often enough but he shows glimpses. I am afraid I haven't seen Chriss do anything on offense unless he's perfectly set up and he looks really confused on defense.

 

[Raze]

This summer I was completely turned off by Chriss's demeanor. He emulated a spoiled brat. It carried into the year and had dogged him for quite some time.

That said, I'd say his "attitude grade" is improving. He's spending less time throwing tantrums after calls (Thanks to Jay), he's better at getting back on D, and he's trying. And that's ALL I want to see from him; effort. Granted, he's regressed a ton from last year. He has had the quintessential sophomore slump season. But because the effort is starting to show I have hope that he can pull out of it.

He's still athletic, still tall, and still has a nice shot. He just needs a couple of years of discipline to work on fundamentals:

His on the ball shot defense is wretched. He bites on every pump fake. I'd tell him "I don't care if you ever get a block again this season, just close out, alter the shot, then box out please". Blocks can be overrated.
His positions on rebounds is weak. He should be eating up everything he hears from Tyson and now Len (shocking as it may be).
His low post offensive moves aren't getting any work. I truly believe he should be getting 5 looks per game down there.
He NEVER sees the ball in a position to score. When is the last time they ran an alley oop for him?
I presume that the reason the last two haven't been met is because his attitude has been so rotten. Maybe that will change soon.

I also can't stand his role on the team... which is to say he has none. I mean I guess he's supposed to be a stretch 4, but he looks lost doing it. I would much rather see him pick and roll or pick and pop with Cannan. Mike and Tyler have been frustratingly bad off screens. Maybe Isaiah is an upgrade here.

I really don't care if he starts. Mark West started during the Barkley days but only saw about 17 minutes a game. I just wish they'd find a way for him to contribute.

So I see most of the blame on Chriss to improve fundamentals, and the rest on the coaching staff to place him in a position to be successful. I believe Jay will figure this out. He gains my trust every time I watch his team on the floor.