Murray may not run at Pro Day Today (3/13)

[Zeno]

You have NO proof he put on weight. Is it possible sure - you are stating it as a fact when it is an unknown.

Does it look suspicious to you because you believe he put on weight that he did not run - sure. I understand that. It does not mean your suspicion is correct.

I know he is going to get hit in the NFL - and yes I worry he may not be that durable. It is a gamble - I sure as heck would not make it a habit of calling designed runs for him I can promise you that.

For all we know the Cards have already made it clear to his agent they are taking him. If that is the case why would he need to run the 40?

Ok, if he didn't put on weight (which EVERYONE believes he did--media, scouts EVERYONE) then why would he not do a single athletic drill? His athleticism is what makes him an intriguing prospect NOT anything else about his game...his size is a negative, his arm strength is no better or worse than most other top QB prospects every year, his lack of college tape is a concern. Why not flaunt your positives to teams? UNLESS you have something to hide

 

[splitsecond]

People also tend to forget Wilson had 1489 pass attempts in college, Murray 519. Wilson was a much more refined player coming in.

This too. And the fact that he was successful in two different offensive systems. Everyone except Pete Carroll dropped the ball on him. Looking back his IQ should have been obvious to every scout worth their salt he should have been a much higher pick.

 

[Proximo]

How is it unimportant to have serious concerns/doubts about a short/small QB holding up in the NFL? Then that same short/small QB refuses to show any of his "elite athleticism" to the scouts on Pro Day? Is that focusing on the unimportant stuff? Having legitimate concerns about his physical staure is not unimportant.

10 to 20 lbs does not stop injury. 1/2 an inch of height does not change how well you can play qb.

I'm sorry you will not convince me either is a legit concern.

 

[The Kraken]

Maybe you wouldn't, but the media made him measuring 5'10 the biggest story of the day. 80% of this board wants to claim he fixed the measurement and chugged water to get his weight up. If you can't see how people are focusing on unimportant stuff when it comes to Murray, well I guess you will never see it.

I agree, but there are some things that are legit concerns, i.e. holding up over the course of an entire season at his size...Also, I am very worried that if the going gets tough, he will go play baseball...very few 1st round picks (let alone the possible overall 1st at the most important position on the field) have the built in escape plan that he does...

He is an intriguing prospect, but there are too many concerns for my liking and I wouldn't be willing to invest the pick in the same exact position we drafted last year...

 

[Chris_Sanders]

That above post is so telling I am going to make it it's own thread

 

[Zeno]

10 to 20 lbs does not stop injury. 1/2 an inch of height does not change how well you can play qb.

I'm sorry you will not convince me either is a legit concern.

If you don't think weight matters (and what kind of weight it is) then there is just no reasoning with you.

There is no way he would take the pounding Rosen did last year at 185 lbs and last a season.

 

[PJ1]

I don't hate on the guy at all. Just wish he was going to the St. Louis Cardinals.

 

[82CardsGrad]

Also if you aren't understanding what Dr. Jones is saying about Wins Against Replacement (WAR)

The most dominant defensive player last year was worth 2 wins (Aaron Donald)

The most dominant QB last year was worth 8 wins (Patrick Mahomes)

BTW, you want to talk red flags, here are some:

https://www.playerprofiler.com/nfl/josh-rosen/

Josh's rankings last year:

28th in air yards
25th in pass attempt distance
23rd in money throws
19th in interceptable passes
16 in danger plays (where QB took unnecessary risks)
30 in expected pass TDs
36 in adjusted yards per attempt
36 in true completion percentage
36 in Play action passes
51(!!) in Red Zone completion
30 in Deep Ball percentage
22 in Pressured Completion Percentage
36 in Production Premium
35 in True Passer Rating
34 in Accuracy Rating

Not a single advanced stat above league average. Not a one.

Of course it's fair to expect above-average stats from a rookie QB who entered the year thinking he would be the backup, who gets tossed into the fire with a never before Head Coach, a new OC who had never been an OC before, an o-line that ranked first in the league in injuries and games lost to injury, an inept David Johnson and nobody to even try to throw to but Larry Fitzgerald (especially after Kirk went down...). Yea... it's fair to expect Josh Rosen to overcome all of that...

 

[PACardsFan]

So he wouldn't throw at the combine and won't run here. There are more red flags about this kid than at a Chinese parade.

So you guys act like no one has ever seen the kid run or throw. There’s plenty of tape out there. He’s a stud, even if he’s a shorter stud.

 

[AZCrazy]

Murray has enough sizzle to come in and light up the league, which he will. At first. The question about his was never his talent.
It's about his durability against NFL caliber monsters, and his commitment level. He says he's 100% football, so you have to take him at his word, but he does
have a huge out if it doesn't work out for him at first, which none of the other guys have.

If we keep Rosen and get a functional offense around him, coaches and players, he will be much better. He has to be, statistically.
With Murray we're starting over again with another rookie. Will he be great? Sure, until he's not. It's a gigantic risk when there are far more sure things staring
us in the face. We've got another rookie HC again, and another rookie OC again as a consideration.

 

[The Kraken]

10 to 20 lbs does not stop injury. 1/2 an inch of height does not change how well you can play qb.

I'm sorry you will not convince me either is a legit concern.

I will not speak on the height issue, but I can tell you from experience, putting 10-20 pounds makes a huge difference in durability.

I am sure OUTCENT and a couple of the other ruggers on here will say the same thing, i experienced this in both football and over the last 25 years in rugby.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

Of course it's fair to expect above-average stats from a rookie QB who entered the year thinking he would be the backup, who gets tossed into the fire with a never before Head Coach, a new OC who had never been an OC before, an o-line that ranked first in the league in injuries and games lost to injury, an inept David Johnson and nobody to even try to throw to but Larry Fitzgerald (especially after Kirk went down...). Yea... it's fair to expect Josh Rosen to overcome all of that...

I expect to him to be remotely decent at ANYTHING

Go watch some breakdowns of his tape. It's bad. He is really not accurate.

 

[PACardsFan]

Nobody is comparing. A question was asked if there ever was a poor pro day performance. To show that pro days have no reflection on success I quoted the easiest example of that I could remember.

So you really should learn to read and comprehend before commenting.

Stupid comparison just the same.

 

[Zeno]

Stupid comparison just the same.

Sigh. It's not comparing ANYTHING. Just showing that a good pro day is not indicative of future success.

 

[football karma]

on Murray's weight:

at the NFL combine at weigh in (in what has to be an incredibly weird and awkward experience) the players are down to underwear when getting weighed -- and stand on a stage to be viewed that way by scouts

if Murray packed on flabby weight -- it would show. Especially if the rumored 175/185 playing weight become 207.

I would have preferred he run to show he is 4.4 or less at 200 lbs, but as long as the 207 at the combine looked fit on him, im not sure how important the 40 time is.

Russel Wilson ran a 4.55, and ive yet to see anyone really run him down for a big hit.

 

[BW52]

10 to 20 lbs does not stop injury. 1/2 an inch of height does not change how well you can play qb.

I'm sorry you will not convince me either is a legit concern.

And you will not convince that it is not a concern.To each his own.

 

[DRM08]

Also if you aren't understanding what Dr. Jones is saying about Wins Against Replacement (WAR)

The most dominant defensive player last year was worth 2 wins (Aaron Donald)

The most dominant QB last year was worth 8 wins (Patrick Mahomes)

That WAR stat makes you think all these non-QB guys are overpaid. It's pretty staggering the amount of money flying around for non-QB positions this week in free agency. Look at what the Bears traded for Khalil Mack and then look at his salary. I don't think you can say it's legitimately worth everything they gave up and continue to give up for him in comparison with a typical starting QB around the league, never mind a top notch QB in the league.

Hell, PFF said a 3rd or 4th tier starting QB grades around 2 WAR...same as Aaron Donald. But I guess if idiot teams like the Jets are going to over spend on good but not incredible players, then it forces the entire market to be overinflated at these various positions.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Really dumb decision not to run.

Height: I have already seen reporters say that they were in the room when he got measured and it was legit. So why weight but not height.

It's terrible advice from his agent.

Here was how he did on throws. Apparently he was impressive

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As a total aside from the ongoing argument, it’s an amazing image to see that many adults standing around just to watch one guy throw a ball to an uncovered receiver. The visual is, IMO, kind of embarrassing to what we as a society place an inordinate amount value in.

Rant over. I love football.

 

[Cheesebeef]

are the Murray fans really doubting whether or not he put on weight?! How is that even debatable?

at this point, he's the football equivalent of Trump for his fans. He could shoot someone in Times square and wouldn't matter. (this is NOT a political post... just speaking to the level of adoration/fandom where nothing the guy does or doesn't do matters).

 

[Ohcrap75]

Also if you aren't understanding what Dr. Jones is saying about Wins Against Replacement (WAR)

The most dominant defensive player last year was worth 2 wins (Aaron Donald)

The most dominant QB last year was worth 8 wins (Patrick Mahomes)

BTW, you want to talk red flags, here are some:

https://www.playerprofiler.com/nfl/josh-rosen/

Josh's rankings last year:

28th in air yards
25th in pass attempt distance
23rd in money throws
19th in interceptable passes
16 in danger plays (where QB took unnecessary risks)
30 in expected pass TDs
36 in adjusted yards per attempt
36 in true completion percentage
36 in Play action passes
51(!!) in Red Zone completion
30 in Deep Ball percentage
22 in Pressured Completion Percentage
36 in Production Premium
35 in True Passer Rating
34 in Accuracy Rating

Not a single advanced stat above league average. Not a one.

david Johnson was ranked 41 in yds/attempt... Does that mean he is garbage and isn't talented to succeed in the NFL? The whole offense was absolute garbage and it affected everyone. If anyone believes that DJ is closer to the player that he was a couple years ago, then wouldn't it be fair to say Rosen could have a reasonable jump in performance if surroundings were as improved?

 

[Proximo]

If you don't think weight matters (and what kind of weight it is) then there is just no reasoning with you.

There is no way he would take the pounding Rosen did last year at 185 lbs and last a season.

Ok - so tell me this. Say you guys are all correct and he drank a ton of water. Does the combine know that? Don't they do body fat% - would that give it away?

If he is faking this weight gain with water don't you think all the teams could figure that out?

You have absolutely no idea whether he could take the same pounding as Rosen did - but the odds are he would not take as many hits due to his escape-ability.

Let me ask you this - Mike Glennon is an absolute twig. I'm sure he weighs more than Murray - but he managed to play many games getting hit and still keep going. Does just weight matter or does it matter how it is distributed?

190 pounds on a 5'10 frame is more robust than 210 on a 6'4 frame.

How is Tyreek Hill able to keep playing - he weighs 185 and gets hit multiple times a game. He should be in a hospital according to you guys.

This whole he's too skinny to hold up crap is BS.

 

[JeffGollin]

The biggest risk with Murray is if it doesn't work out, you have moved on from Rosen and now for the third draft in a row, you have to invest in the QBOF...and hope you get that right...in the meantime, you have blown thru rookie contracts on other key players and now have to pay them...this is not something we can afford to do and be competitive in the near future.

Go for the sure thing, develop and build around Rosen.

Process is really a 2-parter:

1. Change QB's three years in a row.

2. Completely change offensive systems once, and if things don't work out, live with the new (albeit faulty) system or go back to the previous one.

I'm not saying this is why we should stick with Rosen, but we should at least understand the risks involved in drafting Murray.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

My favorite thing about Murray is that a lot of posters that historically say “what did he do in the field?” and “I believe my eyes” are now arguing measurables or gnashing teeth about what the kid is not doing in underwear olympics and others that have likely commented on forty yard dashes and other measurables are now arguing “why should he have to run?”

Being fanatical to your position makes you adopt flawed arguments.

 

[BW52]

Ok - so tell me this. Say you guys are all correct and he drank a ton of water. Does the combine know that? Don't they do body fat% - would that give it away?

If he is faking this weight gain with water don't you think all the teams could figure that out?

You have absolutely no idea whether he could take the same pounding as Rosen did - but the odds are he would not take as many hits due to his escape-ability.

Let me ask you this - Mike Glennon is an absolute twig. I'm sure he weighs more than Murray - but he managed to play many games getting hit and still keep going. Does just weight matter or does it matter how it is distributed?

190 pounds on a 5'10 frame is more robust than 210 on a 6'4 frame.

How is Tyreek Hill able to keep playing - he weighs 185 and gets hit multiple times a game. He should be in a hospital according to you guys.

This whole he's too skinny to hold up crap is BS.

Take your Murray glasses off.Is Tyrek Hill a standing QB on the field for 60-70 plays a game?

 

[Proximo]

are the Murray fans really doubting whether or not he put on weight?! How is that even debatable?

at this point, he's the football equivalent of Trump for his fans. He could shoot someone in Times square and wouldn't matter. (this is NOT a political post... just speaking to the level of adoration/fandom where nothing the guy does or doesn't do matters).

Prove to me he put on weight.

Oh yeah - you can't. That is my point.

I am not even really his fan. I have never even seen the guy play a college game. All I am doing is looking at his highlight video's his stats, and what scouts and media people are saying about him. It all looks pretty good to me, and Rosen has been underwhelming.

All I am concerned about is the Cards making the best use they can of the 1st pick.