RON_IN_OC
https://www.ronevansrealty.com
You can't just go with short o-linemen...You'd have guys like Calais Campbell just put one hand on top of a dudes helmet, to push him down and raise his other giant long as arm up to swat the pass.
The Kyler Murray bad decision thread
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SoonerLou
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My point was more about Cole getting stood upright or pushed back. Not necessarily his overall height. When the center is getting pushed back Kyler is not looking downfield he's looking at the neck of the center.
To my eye Gaillard was better although I could be wrong.
I would send pressure up the middle at the Cardinals every time if I was a DC. Or at least hope my DT's could generate constant pressure.
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I agree about back foot throws and over the middle but the miss to Fitz he DID step into it, he just missed badly high. Remember Jay Schroeder? He'd start every game with every throw high and then settle in. I think guys sometimes just get too pumped especially since he played so poorly the game before. That first throw IMO was not mechanics he just missed badly. some of the others were clearly mechanics.
The really bad one in this to me is the one where he throws into coverage when Drake is open underneath for the first down. the Wr broke it up but you gotta take the safer throw there or put the ball where if the Wr can't catch it nobody can. Like the one to D Hop where the DB took him out of bounds, there's no way that throw is going to get picked off if Hopkins can't make the catch nobody can, and he nearly got it just couldn't stay in bounds
The really bad one in this to me is the one where he throws into coverage when Drake is open underneath for the first down. the Wr broke it up but you gotta take the safer throw there or put the ball where if the Wr can't catch it nobody can. Like the one to D Hop where the DB took him out of bounds, there's no way that throw is going to get picked off if Hopkins can't make the catch nobody can, and he nearly got it just couldn't stay in bounds
this is what I was saying it’s not on Kliff or anyone else really it’s pretty much Kyler making bad decisions and bad throws. Guys are open he’s just not getting them the ball.
on that last drive against Detroit Hopkins is wide open and instead he chucks it downfield into triple coverage it’s just head scratching
the thing is we’ve seen him at Oklahoma and we’ve seen him last year and even the first two games on the year he looked fine but it looks like wheels have come off. Like he’s just forgotten how to play football
it’s like he has the yips. It’s clearly in his head at this point
SoonerLou
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Should probably post this in my "Kyler needs to throw on the run" thread 
However, even this great run.
Ideally you'd like him to move to his left, reset and throw to Dan Arnold.
Now its ok because he's got the talent to make up for it. However, yea its areas of improvement.
I will say the weird thing is in the last game of the season against the Rams he DID do that.
He knew he couldnt take off because of the hamstring and would flip the ball out on the move.
So its probably just a mental thing. All his life he didnt need to throw guys open. He could either take off or he had all day to throw.
However, even this great run.
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Ideally you'd like him to move to his left, reset and throw to Dan Arnold.
Now its ok because he's got the talent to make up for it. However, yea its areas of improvement.
I will say the weird thing is in the last game of the season against the Rams he DID do that.
He knew he couldnt take off because of the hamstring and would flip the ball out on the move.
So its probably just a mental thing. All his life he didnt need to throw guys open. He could either take off or he had all day to throw.
SoonerLou
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This doesn't hold water for me because Kyler had 542 pass attempts in the NFL while Herbert had none.
TheCardFan
Things have changed.
I focused on Kyler a lot and only saw him doing two things...sitting on the bench or throwing passes behind the bench. Included a pic of that in GameDay thread.
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I'm not comparing Herbert to Murray now I'm comparing Herbert as a rookie to Murray as a rookie. Have you see the OU vs Alabama game in the playoffs? watch Murray in that game it's so obvious how little actual experience he had at the time. the announcers were saying it over and over he has not seen anything like this level of defense and pressure before, we're seeing things from him(murray) we haven't seen all year because this is really the first adversity he's seen. He basically started one year.
And again he didn't have real offseasons in college because he was playing baseball often. After his first year at A&M he transferred to OU but that summer he played baseball in a summer league. Then he sat out the year as a transfer.
He had half as many at bats in college as he had pass attempts.
Let's see how Herbert adjusts when NFL teams start to adjust to him. I kind of doubt he's going to complete 72 percent of his passes on the season, he looks AWFULLY good so far though
I wouldn’t bench him . I would have on the last drive or two.
We can complain about him not being an MVP level QB yet or being behind other rookies but I think it will be fine long term. Murray is still the fastest player on the field most weeks. Its not like hes playing like Haskins or Darnold. Murray just has a very high ceiling that I'm not going to give up on for a few more years. I'm more excited about having Murray than having someone like Baker, Goff or Carr despite his decision making and accuracy issues.
Stout
Hold onto the ball, Murray!
No one wants to get behind after first down, but if the offense is so fragile it falls apart this easily, the offensive game plan and design SUCKS.
I agree. But it can’t happen 3and4 times a game.
Right. So I went back and watched the All 22 this time and it's not pretty.
Firstly, I take back mostly what I said about Kliff. There are a bunch of classic NFL drop backs where Kyler has multiple options and 9 out of 10 times he checks it down. He probably left 150-200 yards on the field on Sunday. Carolina played a soft zone scheme but they focused on only 2 levels of the field. The were very, very conscious of everything within 5 yards. The CB's and safeties very rarely took their eyes off the LOS and the linebackers paid no attention to anyone running past them, the focused on everything under them which is why they shut down the run. They had no concerns about intermediate passes at all.
Really watching it back Carolina didn't play well. We had guys open ALL THE TIME. Just Murray didn't throw it. If he did, they would have had to change defensively which would have opened up the run.
I'm going to start off with Murray and Fitz because watching it back I have to say the "Fitz is done thread" is bogus. I can see why people would think that from watching the game but it's not accurate.
1. I'm going to start with a trio of images related to the same play. I think this is in Q3 down 14.
You can see Kyler is primed to throw, he's staring right at Fitz who's running a 20 yard comeback. Fitz has just put on the breaks and Boston has already lost him. Really this ball should already be out and be halfway on the way to Fitz already for an easy 20 yard pass.
Instead Kyler pumps but doesn't release, scrambles to his right and dumps it off to Arnold for 4-5 yards.
This is a bread and butter NFL throw for any QB.
This is what it looks like from Kylers perspective (if Kyler was a lot, lot taller).
This shot is a second or so later after he stopped his throw. You can see on the first image Fitz has about 9 yards on the LB where in this one it's about 7.
Still very easy throw that for some reason he doesn't take.
Yet, not long later he makes a very similar and possible slightly tougher throw with anticipation to Arnold for a 20 yard gain.
The only difference is the linebacker isn't directly in between, but that shouldn't matter as the flight should be nowhere near the LB.
Is Kyler seeing interceptions where there aren't any?
2. This one really pissed me off and highlights some of the conversation I've seen here recently about Kyler not getting outside the pocket and resetting, which you can see from the image he has plenty of time to do.
This is 3rd and 8 down 14 in Q2 I think. Kyler moves out to his right fair quickly but you can see he has space and time to reset and throw with Hop, Kirk and Fitz all WIDE open for 30 yard plus gain. If he throws it to Hop here with anticipation Nuk is scoring a TD all day.
Stop, reset aim for the 35 yard line anywhere near Nuk and thats a TD. He could literally close his eyes and throw it anywhere near the 40 yard line between the numbers and one of them is catching the ball. He's looking downfield and I don't understand how he's not seeing that. Instead the drive is dead, the Panthers get the ball back.
All of us sat at home are saying "Why isn't anyone getting open?"
3. A more simple one here but just for the Fitz isn't getting open crowd.
Fitz is just running a simple crosser at the chains for the 1st down. Normally Kyler would hungrily goggle this up as an easy 1st down.
Instead he steps up from the pressure and fires one very low to Nuk coming back around the 30. You might recall Nuk had to dive forward and just got under it.
We got the 1st, but was an odd decision with Fitz right there for the easy 1st. Kyler seems very, very wary of throwing anything where a DB might bare down and grab an INT, but theres no chance of that here.
4. This one we all know. First pass of the game. Kyler sails and easy one over Fitz.
You can also see that there's a possible deep ball on to Kirk which likely would draw PI as he's already being pulled back, which suggests Kirk is getting away.
5. This one is tough to show on a still, but watching the film this was a pass that's well inside Kyler's ability. We have seen him do it before.
First and most obvious, he misses Daniels for a TD. Both DB's bite on Edmonds here. Daniels gets a free run a throws it now with a bit of touch to the 20 it's a TD. In about a second Daniels puts his arm up screaming for it.
But I highlighted Fitz here running an out route. None of the DB's track Fitz here and it wouldn't matter if they did with a decent pass towards the sideline. Fitz has all the space in the world there to catch an out and gain more up the sideline even. In about half a second he's looking back for a ball that never comes yet should already have been thrown.
Instead it's dumped off to Edmonds for 4-5 yards.
6. Here's a prime example of poor decision making.
Both Fitz at the top and I think it's Arnold at the bottom. Both run nice little route into the space between zones. Easy, quick pass for 10 yards and a 1st down either way. Bread and butter for this offense.
If the ball was out already and on the way to Fitz at the top like Fitz picks up another 5 or 6 before the safety gets him. This is basic stuff.
Instead he throws it to Nuk 1 yard behind the LOS and Nuk scrambles to gain a couple of yards. Horrible. Even if he throws it to Nuk with a little lead Nuk might run for the 1st down but he throws it a little behind him and by the time he's turned the DB is across.
7. More bad thinking from Kyler.
He takes the check down to Edmonds at the LOS almost instantly despite having a bunch of time.
If he went through his reads he would see Nuk in acres of space for a 1st down. The DB is caught between ball watching and watching Fitz here and doesn't even know Nuk stopped.
But I also put Fitz in Orange because while it's not an easy throw it's also not a very hard throw for an NFL QB.
Fitz is in full motion. The linebacker next to him is static and has no interest in Fitz and it more interested in Edmonds. Boston is 15 yards off at deep safety.
I think it's a throw half the QB's in the league could make comfortable to hit Fitz in stride here although the right choice is Nuk.
8. I don't have to say much here do I.
Nuk is wiiiiide open and while the DB would get across to him Nuk is excellent with the ball in space.
Again, there's a LB directly between him and Nuk and he seems to think linebackers can jump 20ft now.
Kyler runs here for 10-11 yards and Kirk does score 5 or 6 plays later on this drive but by that point we lost a couple more minutes of clock.
I stopped here around the end of Q3 because this took long enough and there a tonne of evidence already.
Kliff isn't the problem. I have some sympathy for him because Kyler simply wasn't executing which is why he started going more to the screens and quick passes. He still has some tendencies to stick to things that aren't working too long but Kyler was just really bad. He wasn't picking up even simple passes and Kliff gave him plenty.
Fitz isn't cooked. Fitz could have had 70-80 yards easily in the game. He was open most of the time. The Panthers were only worried about the deep ball and inside the 5 yard line and nearly all Fitz's routes were intermediate. He even ran a couple of deep routes in this game where he opened his legs up and he didn't look slow. He looked like the same old Fitz.
Sadly, Kyler was just really, really poor. The fact that PFF gave him an 80 grade shows the weakness of PFF's grading for QB's where it's not what you do, it's also what you didn't do.
Firstly, I take back mostly what I said about Kliff. There are a bunch of classic NFL drop backs where Kyler has multiple options and 9 out of 10 times he checks it down. He probably left 150-200 yards on the field on Sunday. Carolina played a soft zone scheme but they focused on only 2 levels of the field. The were very, very conscious of everything within 5 yards. The CB's and safeties very rarely took their eyes off the LOS and the linebackers paid no attention to anyone running past them, the focused on everything under them which is why they shut down the run. They had no concerns about intermediate passes at all.
Really watching it back Carolina didn't play well. We had guys open ALL THE TIME. Just Murray didn't throw it. If he did, they would have had to change defensively which would have opened up the run.
I'm going to start off with Murray and Fitz because watching it back I have to say the "Fitz is done thread" is bogus. I can see why people would think that from watching the game but it's not accurate.
1. I'm going to start with a trio of images related to the same play. I think this is in Q3 down 14.
You can see Kyler is primed to throw, he's staring right at Fitz who's running a 20 yard comeback. Fitz has just put on the breaks and Boston has already lost him. Really this ball should already be out and be halfway on the way to Fitz already for an easy 20 yard pass.
Instead Kyler pumps but doesn't release, scrambles to his right and dumps it off to Arnold for 4-5 yards.
This is a bread and butter NFL throw for any QB.
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This is what it looks like from Kylers perspective (if Kyler was a lot, lot taller).
This shot is a second or so later after he stopped his throw. You can see on the first image Fitz has about 9 yards on the LB where in this one it's about 7.
Still very easy throw that for some reason he doesn't take.
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Yet, not long later he makes a very similar and possible slightly tougher throw with anticipation to Arnold for a 20 yard gain.
The only difference is the linebacker isn't directly in between, but that shouldn't matter as the flight should be nowhere near the LB.
Is Kyler seeing interceptions where there aren't any?
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2. This one really pissed me off and highlights some of the conversation I've seen here recently about Kyler not getting outside the pocket and resetting, which you can see from the image he has plenty of time to do.
This is 3rd and 8 down 14 in Q2 I think. Kyler moves out to his right fair quickly but you can see he has space and time to reset and throw with Hop, Kirk and Fitz all WIDE open for 30 yard plus gain. If he throws it to Hop here with anticipation Nuk is scoring a TD all day.
Stop, reset aim for the 35 yard line anywhere near Nuk and thats a TD. He could literally close his eyes and throw it anywhere near the 40 yard line between the numbers and one of them is catching the ball. He's looking downfield and I don't understand how he's not seeing that. Instead the drive is dead, the Panthers get the ball back.
All of us sat at home are saying "Why isn't anyone getting open?"
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3. A more simple one here but just for the Fitz isn't getting open crowd.
Fitz is just running a simple crosser at the chains for the 1st down. Normally Kyler would hungrily goggle this up as an easy 1st down.
Instead he steps up from the pressure and fires one very low to Nuk coming back around the 30. You might recall Nuk had to dive forward and just got under it.
We got the 1st, but was an odd decision with Fitz right there for the easy 1st. Kyler seems very, very wary of throwing anything where a DB might bare down and grab an INT, but theres no chance of that here.
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4. This one we all know. First pass of the game. Kyler sails and easy one over Fitz.
You can also see that there's a possible deep ball on to Kirk which likely would draw PI as he's already being pulled back, which suggests Kirk is getting away.
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5. This one is tough to show on a still, but watching the film this was a pass that's well inside Kyler's ability. We have seen him do it before.
First and most obvious, he misses Daniels for a TD. Both DB's bite on Edmonds here. Daniels gets a free run a throws it now with a bit of touch to the 20 it's a TD. In about a second Daniels puts his arm up screaming for it.
But I highlighted Fitz here running an out route. None of the DB's track Fitz here and it wouldn't matter if they did with a decent pass towards the sideline. Fitz has all the space in the world there to catch an out and gain more up the sideline even. In about half a second he's looking back for a ball that never comes yet should already have been thrown.
Instead it's dumped off to Edmonds for 4-5 yards.
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6. Here's a prime example of poor decision making.
Both Fitz at the top and I think it's Arnold at the bottom. Both run nice little route into the space between zones. Easy, quick pass for 10 yards and a 1st down either way. Bread and butter for this offense.
If the ball was out already and on the way to Fitz at the top like Fitz picks up another 5 or 6 before the safety gets him. This is basic stuff.
Instead he throws it to Nuk 1 yard behind the LOS and Nuk scrambles to gain a couple of yards. Horrible. Even if he throws it to Nuk with a little lead Nuk might run for the 1st down but he throws it a little behind him and by the time he's turned the DB is across.
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7. More bad thinking from Kyler.
He takes the check down to Edmonds at the LOS almost instantly despite having a bunch of time.
If he went through his reads he would see Nuk in acres of space for a 1st down. The DB is caught between ball watching and watching Fitz here and doesn't even know Nuk stopped.
But I also put Fitz in Orange because while it's not an easy throw it's also not a very hard throw for an NFL QB.
Fitz is in full motion. The linebacker next to him is static and has no interest in Fitz and it more interested in Edmonds. Boston is 15 yards off at deep safety.
I think it's a throw half the QB's in the league could make comfortable to hit Fitz in stride here although the right choice is Nuk.
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8. I don't have to say much here do I.
Nuk is wiiiiide open and while the DB would get across to him Nuk is excellent with the ball in space.
Again, there's a LB directly between him and Nuk and he seems to think linebackers can jump 20ft now.
Kyler runs here for 10-11 yards and Kirk does score 5 or 6 plays later on this drive but by that point we lost a couple more minutes of clock.
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I stopped here around the end of Q3 because this took long enough and there a tonne of evidence already.
Kliff isn't the problem. I have some sympathy for him because Kyler simply wasn't executing which is why he started going more to the screens and quick passes. He still has some tendencies to stick to things that aren't working too long but Kyler was just really bad. He wasn't picking up even simple passes and Kliff gave him plenty.
Fitz isn't cooked. Fitz could have had 70-80 yards easily in the game. He was open most of the time. The Panthers were only worried about the deep ball and inside the 5 yard line and nearly all Fitz's routes were intermediate. He even ran a couple of deep routes in this game where he opened his legs up and he didn't look slow. He looked like the same old Fitz.
Sadly, Kyler was just really, really poor. The fact that PFF gave him an 80 grade shows the weakness of PFF's grading for QB's where it's not what you do, it's also what you didn't do.
just reinforces what most of us already know but some make excuses for regardless of the 3Tds he just isn’t playing well and has regressed imo....
Thanks for all the work...
I'm surprised there aren't more comments on this one. Just look at it. It makes me want to puke.
We're down 14 zip here. Kyler is about to end the drive by running out and he has 3 open receivers. Nuk can house a simple pass and it completely changes the game.
Look how worried they are about him running, he's sucked down 3 defenders and we have guys wide open. He needs to do this more. Fake run, reset, and throw. He would have guys wide open all the time.
We're down 14 zip here. Kyler is about to end the drive by running out and he has 3 open receivers. Nuk can house a simple pass and it completely changes the game.
Look how worried they are about him running, he's sucked down 3 defenders and we have guys wide open. He needs to do this more. Fake run, reset, and throw. He would have guys wide open all the time.
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Great analysis - thanks for putting in the work!
What mystifies me is that we've seen Murray make PLENTY of plays like the ones he missed in this game. For example, in his first ever game against the Lions, he made two GREAT long throws to Fitz during the Cards' 4th quarter comeback; the pass that Isabela took to the house vs. the 49ers; and lots more that earned him plenty of praise and superlatives last season and even a few this season.
I wonder whether he needs glasses or something. Something was broken last weekend for sure, but hopefully it's fixable easily enough.
...dbs
I wonder (and I hope) if Sunday against the Panthers was simply and over correction from the 3 INT's vs the Lions. Those INT's costs us the game and maybe he thought if he plays conservative and stops the turnovers we could win with dink and dunk.
On saying that, he turned down some easy big completions where there really was no risk and should have changed tactics when we were 14 behind if thats the case.
I'm hoping he has a "fck it" week and decides to just go for it which gets him back on track.
RON_IN_OC
https://www.ronevansrealty.com
That’s the thing missing, that QBs like Kurt, Carson and Favre had...they may throw 3 picks, but keep slinging it until they get the winning TD...or at least shrug it off and come out slinging again the next week.
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I'd rather him try and throw 5 picks than just throw quick passes behind the LOS. So frustrating to see how many simple passes he turned down on Sunday.
Chopper0080
2021 - Prove It
I agree but I don't know if Murray has that and how hard it is for it to be learned.
He's never had adversity like those guys. He played in the best high school team with several players that played this past Sunday. Then in a stacked OU offense with one of the best offensive coaches. He's always had it easy really other than having to sit and wait for Mayfield to declare.
Chopper0080
2021 - Prove It
I think there is something about having learned to put a team with less talent on your back and carry them to a win. IMO, that is why you see more successful QBs from Miami OH, Purdue, Texas Tech than top level college programs. Again, I don't know if that mindset can be learned or not.
i'm currently watching all the positive press burrow is getting right now across all the different sports talk shows, and it has me wondering.
who would you rather have for the next ~10 years, Burrow or Murray?
who would you rather have for the next ~10 years, Burrow or Murray?
