My issue with DA

[Russ Smith]

It's apples and oranges. Max Hall got a $2500 signing bonus to sign with the Cards as an unrestricted free agent in the days following the draft. Any team with a competitive opening for a #3 quarterback and $3000 could have had him and worked him out. No one was intereted.

You need to tell Max Hall that because he says he signed with the Cards because they were the local team. He said when the Cards contacted him he jumped at the chance. ANd it was Chris Miller who pushed the Cards to sign him, the QB coach, Miller liked him in college and pushed the Cards to sign him.

We have no idea if any other teams tried to get him but Max made it very clear he's a Cardinal because he's from Arizona.

 

[kerouac9]

You need to tell Max Hall that because he says he signed with the Cards because they were the local team. He said when the Cards contacted him he jumped at the chance. ANd it was Chris Miller who pushed the Cards to sign him, the QB coach, Miller liked him in college and pushed the Cards to sign him.

We have no idea if any other teams tried to get him but Max made it very clear he's a Cardinal because he's from Arizona.

What else would he say? "No one else wanted me? I'm glad the hometown team took a chance?" It took days before the team even called Max Hall, didn't it? He wasn't among the first round of UDFAs, was he?

Sometimes the two things can be the same.

 

[CtCardinals78]

Whiz seems to have an idea about QB's

I hope you're right. I just don't have as much confidence in his personnel choices as I once did. He may know a thing or two with QB's, but his legacy at Arizona will ride on this offseason more than anything else IMO. If Hall doesn't work out in the long run and the Cards tailspin into a prolonged period of failure people will look back at the 2010 offseason as the culprit and will remember that more than the Super Bowl run. They will see a two time division champ that came crashing back to Earth to become the "Same ol Cards" If they are successful they will see Hall as one of the bet gambles in Cardinals history.

Either way this move is either boom or bust. He has to stay with DA for the time being no matter what happens with DA, because if he benches DA after a few bad starts the fans, media and possibly even the players will question his moves and motives. Why cut Leinart for DA and then bench DA after 5 weeks? This is why I think we will not see Hall until at least next year. Either way he must improve his drafts and the Cards need to start signing FA when they can.

I like Wiz, I really do. I think he is a great coach for the Cards, but some very bad decisions this offseason along with draft choices and FA's that didn't work out has cast some very big questions in my mind and my confidence with Wiz's decisions are a lot lower than they were this time last year.

 

[conraddobler]

I like'd what I saw in Max Hall too but until he does it in a real game it dosen't mean squat and anyone stupid enough to go with that plan deserves the smoking ruin which will be their career if they err in the slightest with that line of thinking.

Football fans are not fond of hail mary's out your butt as to QB's, Whis if he thought that and if he thought it was cool to cut Matt with that alternative, well he better be right or he's going to take one huge career lump, man I think that's what he did too I just can't believe he would do that.

Couldn't he have just started Matt and let him fail then done the same thing minus DA?

I fail to see the reasoning here other than I hates me some Matt, JMO.

And another thing, for a coach who's so dang picky on QB's, where the heck is he on teams that quit on him?

How can a guy that ridiculous on QB's then let a team lay down on him and not start throwing chairs and benching people or punching them?

I'm just flummoxed as to what the heck Whis is thinking here.

 

[dogpoo32]

I like'd what I saw in Max Hall too but until he does it in a real game it dosen't mean squat and anyone stupid enough to go with that plan deserves the smoking ruin which will be their career if they err in the slightest with that line of thinking.

Football fans are not fond of hail mary's out your butt as to QB's, Whis if he thought that and if he thought it was cool to cut Matt with that alternative, well he better be right or he's going to take one huge career lump, man I think that's what he did too I just can't believe he would do that.

Couldn't he have just started Matt and let him fail then done the same thing minus DA?

I fail to see the reasoning here other than I hates me some Matt, JMO.

And another thing, for a coach who's so dang picky on QB's, where the heck is he on teams that quit on him?

How can a guy that ridiculous on QB's then let a team lay down on him and not start throwing chairs and benching people or punching them?

I'm just flummoxed as to what the heck Whis is thinking here.

I think that's all it came down to. Whis hated Matt. He lacked those intangibles.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I like'd what I saw in Max Hall too but until he does it in a real game it dosen't mean squat and anyone stupid enough to go with that plan deserves the smoking ruin which will be their career if they err in the slightest with that line of thinking.

Football fans are not fond of hail mary's out your butt as to QB's, Whis if he thought that and if he thought it was cool to cut Matt with that alternative, well he better be right or he's going to take one huge career lump, man I think that's what he did too I just can't believe he would do that.

Couldn't he have just started Matt and let him fail then done the same thing minus DA?

not if the majority of locker room thought he was a heartless self-entitled pretty boy who thought he could buy their loyalty with a trip to Hawaii. Not saying that's absolutely what happened, but judging by the fact that NO ONE made ONE statement of support for him during the pre-season... well... the silence was defeaning there.

can't start someone the locker room doesn't believe in at the beginning of the season.

 

[conraddobler]

not if the majority of locker room thought he was a heartless self-entitled pretty boy who thought he could buy their loyalty with a trip to Hawaii. Not saying that's absolutely what happened, but judging by the fact that NO ONE made ONE statement of support for him during the pre-season... well... the silence was defeaning there.

can't start someone the locker room doesn't believe in at the beginning of the season.

Oh you most certainly can.

He either then earns it on the fly or dies in rubble, that's how that job goes.

Whis made a fundamental error IMO, JMO, Whis is so competitive he couldn't let nature take it's course and in doing so he opened himself up to huge risks he did not have to take.

The team itself would of worked it out in a few games, by starting DA you are saying that we're going somewhere with DA, that's what you are saying and in saying that you look like a putz.

I think it was a monumental mistake even if Matt was a complete dud, then let him dud on the field and get it over with.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Oh you most certainly can.

He either then earns it on the fly or dies in rubble, that's how that job goes.

Whis made a fundamental error IMO, JMO, Whis is so competitive he couldn't let nature take it's course and in doing so he opened himself up to huge risks he did not have to take.

The team itself would of worked it out in a few games, by starting DA you are saying that we're going somewhere with DA, that's what you are saying and in saying that you look like a putz.

I think it was a monumental mistake even if Matt was a complete dud, then let him dud on the field and get it over with.

if you're in danger of losing the locker room before the season even STARTS, I disagree that you go ahead and do that.

 

[Russ Smith]

I like'd what I saw in Max Hall too but until he does it in a real game it dosen't mean squat and anyone stupid enough to go with that plan deserves the smoking ruin which will be their career if they err in the slightest with that line of thinking.

Football fans are not fond of hail mary's out your butt as to QB's, Whis if he thought that and if he thought it was cool to cut Matt with that alternative, well he better be right or he's going to take one huge career lump, man I think that's what he did too I just can't believe he would do that.

Couldn't he have just started Matt and let him fail then done the same thing minus DA?

I fail to see the reasoning here other than I hates me some Matt, JMO.

And another thing, for a coach who's so dang picky on QB's, where the heck is he on teams that quit on him?

How can a guy that ridiculous on QB's then let a team lay down on him and not start throwing chairs and benching people or punching them?

I'm just flummoxed as to what the heck Whis is thinking here.

Sure but I really think Whiz said it without saying it, the team doesn't believe in Matt Leinart. Thats why he kept talking about it's more than stats and some of the other comments. In the end he felt the team didn't buy into Matt and that was a huge problem for a QB.

I do agree with others we made mistakes in the offseason but McNabb was probably the best option and we have no idea if Whiz wanted that or not.

 

[MrYeahBut]

if you're in danger of losing the locker room before the season even STARTS, I disagree that you go ahead and do that.

If Anderson lays an egg against the Raiders I wouldn't doubt the locker room would be lost anyway

 

[LVCARDFREAK]

It's apples and oranges. Max Hall got a $2500 signing bonus to sign with the Cards as an unrestricted free agent in the days following the draft. Any team with a competitive opening for a #3 quarterback and $3000 could have had him and worked him out. No one was intereted.

#7 was cut at the end of training camp. If a team wanted to trade for him or pick him up off waivers, it would have cost them $4 million for the privilege. At the same time, by bringing in a high-profile QB on the eve of the season, you're inviting a quarterback controversy in any city where #7 may have had an opportunity to start (Buffalo, maybe Carolina, maybe Jacksonville), and you have to basically start with scratch from him because Ken Whisenhunt doesn't exactly have a huge coaching tree behind him. Neither you nor I have any idea of #7 had competitive offers from other teams, or would have after week 1 when is salary wouldn't have been guaranteed. #7 went into a quarterback friendly system with a starter who's proven to be an injury risk and a backup quarterback who has a habit of walking out of the back of the end zone. I'm not really concerned that he hasn't absorbed the playbook in 2 and a half weeks over a guy who's been in the system for two and a half years, no.

So no one wanted Max Hall for free. No one wanted #7 at the cost of a quarterback controversy and/or $4 million. Does that clarify things for you?

It might clarify things if you were actually right. Leinart was cut and was free to sign with any team. It was reported for days afterwards that no one wanted him and he was not getting much interest. He FINALLy signed a 1 year deal to be a third string qb.

And you honestly believe if anyone had offered the Cards a 'competitive offers" that they wouldnt have jumped at it? Come on...you are really stretching now.

Leinart was cut because he is a bad QB that had 4 years, repeat 4 years, to know the system, make plays, be a leader, and become the QB of this team. If you believe ML is going to be a good QB and make everyone, including Fitz, regret what they have done, fine, I get it, you like him, but dont say it was a bad decision on one hand and applaud the same actions on another...

 

[LVCARDFREAK]

Matt's career here wasn't the best, someone did pick him up as a backup which is all any QB is worth that time of year, you wouldn't know who really wants him until next year, all the rosters are essentially set, he dosen't know the playbook and someone who dosen't know the playbook is essentially useless this year. Top all that off with swirling rumors for years he's a bust and no one is going to treat him like he's worth anything, nor really should they but....

People just grasp anything they hear in the media and run with it, he was pronounced a failure by a guy who thought he caught lightning in DA, the credibility meter is starting to swing back in Matt's direction.

Facts are facts, Whiz's cred on this is going up in smoke fast, it's nearly gone now.

By the end of the year if this goes like I think it will it may never come back and then people will take a fresh look at Matt and he'll either make it or not but really I don't care, I care about this team and it just went through the dumbest offseason in history as far as I'm concerned and a coach I thought a ton of is looking like someone has some photos he don't want out, heck I don't know what's going on but it looks very very bad.

Wasnt the best? Yeah and the Titanic was a little dingy. Im not going to get into the Leinart debate anymore, and you are coming from the assumption that he was good and Whiz cut him "b/c he had photos of Whiz" . I cant chnage your mind, but it would be nice if people gave Whiz a chnace after 2 division titles and a super bowl run . But your choice.

 

[kerouac9]

It might clarify things if you were actually right. Leinart was cut and was free to sign with any team. It was reported for days afterwards that no one wanted him and he was not getting much interest. He FINALLy signed a 1 year deal to be a third string qb.

And you honestly believe if anyone had offered the Cards a 'competitive offers" that they wouldnt have jumped at it? Come on...you are really stretching now.

Leinart was cut because he is a bad QB that had 4 years, repeat 4 years, to know the system, make plays, be a leader, and become the QB of this team. If you believe ML is going to be a good QB and make everyone, including Fitz, regret what they have done, fine, I get it, you like him, but dont say it was a bad decision on one hand and applaud the same actions on another...

I explained why no one wanted to trade for him or pick him up off waivers. Read more carefully.

I said that we'll never know if he was offered a deal from anyone else once he cleared waivers. There are certainly reasons that have nothing to do with the potential of #7 to succeed in the NFL. But we won't really know what the market is for #7 until next offseason when he's a free agent at the beginning of the league year.

I guess you don't really care about the differences between the Hall situation and #7's. Why don't you just say that you hate #7 and not comment on discussions about him? It's pretty clear that you can't be rational about his performance, and that no amount of data is going to change your opinion.

EDIT: Nice pick on MNF. I hope you're better at evaluating quarterbacks than you are at picking football games.

 

[LVCARDFREAK]

I explained why no one wanted to trade for him or pick him up off waivers. Read more carefully.

I said that we'll never know if he was offered a deal from anyone else once he cleared waivers. There are certainly reasons that have nothing to do with the potential of #7 to succeed in the NFL. But we won't really know what the market is for #7 until next offseason when he's a free agent at the beginning of the league year.

I guess you don't really care about the differences between the Hall situation and #7's. Why don't you just say that you hate #7 and not comment on discussions about him? It's pretty clear that you can't be rational about his performance, and that no amount of data is going to change your opinion.

EDIT: Nice pick on MNF. I hope you're better at evaluating quarterbacks than you are at picking football games.

I dont hate Leinart, he just isnt a good QB. Enough said there. I dont neccessarily believe in Hall either and wish, like many, that we would have done something more concrete in the off season. But the differences in these situations arent that different..you just dont want to see it b/c you dislike Whiz and no matter what data is thrown out you are incapable of being rational about it. You keep mentioning waivers , so what was the excuse once he was cut??

Whiz did the right thing in getting rid of Leinart and eventually we will see it. He wasnt the future of this franchise and failed everytime he tried to sieze the job. He felt entitled to the job.

Oh yeah and MNF, your kidding right, coz I was the nuts on that while you screamed and ranted that there was no way the Niners would win against such an offensive juggernaut. Gore had success running like I said he would and the Niners and their "overated" LB's put pressure on Breese. I cant help it that they scored too early. All I know is I won cash on this lock bet.

 

[kerouac9]

I dont hate Leinart, he just isnt a good QB. Enough said there. I dont neccessarily believe in Hall either and wish, like many, that we would have done something more concrete in the off season. But the differences in these situations arent that different..you just dont want to see it b/c you dislike Whiz and no matter what data is thrown out you are incapable of being rational about it. You keep mentioning waivers , so what was the excuse once he was cut??
Whiz did the right thing in getting rid of Leinart and eventually we will see it. He wasnt the future of this franchise and failed everytime he tried to sieze the job. He felt entitled to the job.

Oh yeah and MNF, your kidding right, coz I was the nuts on that while you screamed and ranted that there was no way the Niners would win against such an offensive juggernaut. Gore had success running like I said he would and the Niners and their "overated" LB's put pressure on Breese. I cant help it that they scored too early. All I know is I won cash on this lock bet.

What's hard to understand? Once #7 was cut, he was on waivers for a time (24 hours?), where any team could have picked up his current contract (The same thing happened with Houshmanzadeh). I think a day or two later he was in Houston.

 

[LVCARDFREAK]

What's hard to understand? Once #7 was cut, he was on waivers for a time (24 hours?), where any team could have picked up his current contract (The same thing happened with Houshmanzadeh). I think a day or two later he was in Houston.

We have a fundemental difference in opinion on Leinart. There really is no more point in discussing. I dont think you take reports from Scheftner and Mortensen serious when they said there was a zero market for Leinart in the NFL.

We will just disagree and move on....Thanks fro the back and forth though

 

[nashman]

If you think Leinart isn't a good QB what on earth do you think about DA? I mean seriously at least Leinart has PROVEN he knows how to win at QB yeah yeah his college career doesn't count right? Whatever dude is a proven winner when given an opportunity and DA is a PROVEN TURD over his career. How anyone can justify DA getting the job is a complete joke, their was obviously a huge issue personal between the coach and Matt simple as that! Then team would follow him just fine if they were winning games! And a rational person would have to think a QB that can actually hit the target he is throwing at would be better than the clown we have back there right now!

 

[Cheesebeef]

If you think Leinart isn't a good QB what on earth do you think about DA? I mean seriously at least Leinart has PROVEN he knows how to win at QB yeah yeah his college career doesn't count right?

right.

How anyone can justify DA getting the job is a complete joke, their was obviously a huge issue personal between the coach and Matt simple as that!

or there was a huge issue between Matt and the entire locker room. Entirely plausible considering NO ONE stuck up for him for a second during or after this entire thing. Not even off the record... nothing. not a peep.

Then team would follow him just fine if they were winning games!

a team would follow ANYONE if they were winning games. Sadly, throughout Matt's career, he's never shown the ability to lead a team to Ws at the pro level.

And a rational person would have to think a QB that can actually hit the target he is throwing at would be better than the clown we have back there right now!

can someone tell me when Matt Leinart became this accurate QB that so many are championing him as? He's a career 57% passer with a 70.8 passer rating.

 

[LVCARDFREAK]

If you think Leinart isn't a good QB what on earth do you think about DA? I mean seriously at least Leinart has PROVEN he knows how to win at QB yeah yeah his college career doesn't count right? Whatever dude is a proven winner when given an opportunity and DA is a PROVEN TURD over his career. How anyone can justify DA getting the job is a complete joke, their was obviously a huge issue personal between the coach and Matt simple as that! Then team would follow him just fine if they were winning games! And a rational person would have to think a QB that can actually hit the target he is throwing at would be better than the clown we have back there right now!

I have heard this arguement for the better part of 2 months and it is still the same. No one on that team wanted Leinart as the QB. Well at least no one that mattered. No one thought he had the leadership or mentallity to lead this team and when given the chance he proved he couldnt.

He not once seized the opportunity even when the starting job was handed to him. He pouted and whined to the media , never spoke to Whiz until days later, and frankly thought the position was his entitlement. I really dont know how much clearer that can be. Thats why I wont go back and forth with K9 on this. We just have fundementally different views on ML. There is no point really.

And by the way, I keep hearing the "it must have been personal" arguement. Not one person on this board brought that up until after ML went crying to the media sevral days after his demotion and said "i dont know what I did, must be personal..."

Its tired already

EDIT: You are 100% correct on DA. But those are two different arguements.

 

[Pariah]

Not one person on this board brought that up until after ML went crying to the media sevral days after his demotion and said "i dont know what I did, must be personal..."

I can see both sides of the ML debate (full disclosure: I fall in the "it's borderline insanity to let him go at the juncture we did" camp), but this is not a true statement. People had been saying this all preseason.

Also for the record, I don't think it was personal so much as Leinart doesn't fit Whiz's idea of what he wants in a QB, and I think he had a closed mind on the issue.

 

[LVCARDFREAK]

I can see both sides of the ML debate (full disclosure: I fall in the "it's borderline insanity to let him go at the juncture we did" camp), but this is not a true statement. People had been saying this all preseason.

Also for the record, I don't think it was personal so much as Leinart doesn't fit Whiz's idea of what he wants in a QB, and I think he had a closed mind on the issue.

until the 4th game, as far as I can remember, everyone thought ML was the starter, so Not sure it happened all preseason.

Although I am getting old and mind is fading.

 

[Russ Smith]

right.



or there was a huge issue between Matt and the entire locker room. Entirely plausible considering NO ONE stuck up for him for a second during or after this entire thing. Not even off the record... nothing. not a peep.



a team would follow ANYONE if they were winning games. Sadly, throughout Matt's career, he's never shown the ability to lead a team to Ws at the pro level.




can someone tell me when Matt Leinart became this accurate QB that so many are championing him as? He's a career 57% passer with a 70.8 passer rating.

Yeah as crazy as I think going with DA is, I really think this is half the reason why. Whiz said he still thinks Matt can be a good NFL QB, notice what he didn't say but I think he means is "just not here." I think Whiz realized that THIS group of players didn't believe in Matt, whether that was Whiz's fault for how he handled him or not was irrelevant, Whiz realized as camp and preseason went on the offense doesn't play well with Matt at QB, they don't seem to believe in him.

I also believe as camp went on Whiz got more and more convinced that he had a real find in Max Hall.

You can't emphasize enough in this age of twitter and facebook that not ONE player on this team has come out and said Matt deserved the chance, or Matt should be the QB etc, not one.

Remember one of the reasons NFL teams don't like to have QB controversies is it can divide a team, some are on team DA, some are on team Matt. But in THIS case, nobody seemed to be on team Matt.

 

[conraddobler]

Yeah as crazy as I think going with DA is, I really think this is half the reason why. Whiz said he still thinks Matt can be a good NFL QB, notice what he didn't say but I think he means is "just not here." I think Whiz realized that THIS group of players didn't believe in Matt, whether that was Whiz's fault for how he handled him or not was irrelevant, Whiz realized as camp and preseason went on the offense doesn't play well with Matt at QB, they don't seem to believe in him.

I also believe as camp went on Whiz got more and more convinced that he had a real find in Max Hall.

You can't emphasize enough in this age of twitter and facebook that not ONE player on this team has come out and said Matt deserved the chance, or Matt should be the QB etc, not one.

Remember one of the reasons NFL teams don't like to have QB controversies is it can divide a team, some are on team DA, some are on team Matt. But in THIS case, nobody seemed to be on team Matt.

I've heard this no one on the team arguement a couple times and while it's true Boldin hinted it was personal.

I'd take the word over former players first, since anyone on the team wouldn't want to step in it, especially if a few key leaders on the team agreed on the issue.

I think people are assuming it was everyone, well Breaston didn't look like one of them and other players seemed to play ok when he was in there too.

But all that changes nothing towards the fact that even if that was the case most coaches would of still not done what Whis did, instead they would of probably cut Skelton and went with Matt DA and Hall, trying to get Skelton on the practice squad and then let the team play with Matt and die or not.

I'm tired of this debate, every Sunday DA steps out there he does the talking for me.

 

[Russ Smith]

I've heard this no one on the team arguement a couple times and while it's true Boldin hinted it was personal.

I'd take the word over former players first, since anyone on the team wouldn't want to step in it, especially if a few key leaders on the team agreed on the issue.

I think people are assuming it was everyone, well Breaston didn't look like one of them and other players seemed to play ok when he was in there too.

But all that changes nothing towards the fact that even if that was the case most coaches would of still not done what Whis did, instead they would of probably cut Skelton and went with Matt DA and Hall, trying to get Skelton on the practice squad and then let the team play with Matt and die or not.

I'm tired of this debate, every Sunday DA steps out there he does the talking for me.

Just to be clear, I was not in favor dumping Matt either. I would have started Matt and dumped DA if I believed Hall was for real(if I were Whiz).

I'm just trying to reason out why he did what he did, I think he just decided the team was ok with Matt as long as Kurt was around, but when Kurt was gone, the team didn't believe in Matt.

 

[azsouthendzone]

right.
or there was a huge issue between Matt and the entire locker room. Entirely plausible considering NO ONE stuck up for him for a second during or after this entire thing. Not even off the record... nothing. not a peep.

Actually Tim Hightower stuck up for him right after the Bears game saying something like "Say what you want about Matt, he has taken a lot of heat, but he played lights out and marched us right down the field and played lights out tonight."

Thinking any player would come out and say "Leinart is our guy" knowing Whisenhunt's feelings in the matter is not realistic. You don't battle the HC and win. Boldin's statements are dead on.