New injury updates on Len, Gortat and Lee

[Cheesebeef]

So what you are saying is that Len is actually a reincarnated evil wizard sent from space to destroy humanity, right?

jesus...how can you so badly misinterpret what I'm trying to say?! Len is actually a reincarnated evil wizard sent from the 4TH DIMENSION to destroy humanity! Get it together Neo!

 

[Cheesebeef]

I asked what you were saying. I guess not much that we already didn't know.

you were projecting an argument into mine. it's stupid. if I said "his career was doomed" then I'd have SAID "his career was doomed." I'm just super leery of his injury history. it's simple as that and if you and people like Griffin with his obnoxious "I guess Len won't need a wheelchair to move for the rest of his life!" want to blow it up to something more, well, more power to you, but it doesn't make for very civil discussion.

 

[Mainstreet]

you were projecting an argument into mine. it's stupid. if I said "his career was doomed" then I'd have SAID "his career was doomed." I'm just super leery of his injury history. it's simple as that and if you and people like Griffin with his obnoxious "I guess Len won't need a wheelchair to move for the rest of his life!" want to blow it up to something more, well, more power to you, but it doesn't make for very civil discussion.

I asked a question about what you meant. You answered it with much bluster. It could have made for an interesting conversation otherwise.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I asked a question about what you meant. You answered it with much bluster. It could have made for an interesting conversation otherwise.

what I meant and specifically STATED was that I a 7 footer with those issues and a SG with those issues weren't all that comparable to me. you're the one who then took the conversation to "He's doomed!" you want to make that leap and project it on to me, great. but I'm going to respond in kind.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I don't dismiss Len's injuries but the Suns trainers have been resoundingly successful so I'm much more sanguine than Cheese and Eric. I think the odds favor him staying reasonably healthy.

this is a good point. the Suns trainers are beyond extraordinary. still has me leery tho.

 

[BC867]

Here is a recap of the legacy of Bill Walton, who came into the NBA much more heralded than Len. After you read it, the question is will he lead us to some championships with an on-again/off-again career?

Walton missed the entire 1978-79 season because of a foot injury. He wanted out of Portland. He was so dissatisfied with the quality of medical care he received from the Trail Blazers' medical staff that he filed a malpractice suit.

On May 13, 1979, Walton, a free agent, signed a $7-million, seven-year contract with his hometown team, the San Diego Clippers. After just playing 14 games in 1979-80, he missed the next two seasons because of injuries to his feet.

Walton passed the time by attending Stanford Law School. When he returned to the NBA in 1982, the Clippers gingerly played the center, who appeared in only 33 games. By the end of the 1984-85 season, the Clippers' first in Los Angeles, Walton was embarrassed by his stats: 10.1 points and nine rebounds, though he did play in 67 games.

On Sept. 6, 1985, Walton was traded to the Celtics, where he would back up center Robert Parrish. He made it through 80 regular-season games (averaging 7.6 points and 6.8 rebounds in 19.3 minutes a game) and won the NBA's sixth man award. Playing 16 of 18 playoff games, he helped Boston win the championship.

But Walton suffered stress fractures in his foot the following season, and played in only 10 games. After spending the entire 1987-88 regular season recovering from major surgery on his right foot, he tried to return to practice, but the pain was too great. Walton called it quits.

For his career, Walton averaged 13.3 points and 10.5 rebounds. His field-goal percentage was .521 and his foul-shooting percentage was .660. In February 1990, almost three years after Walton had played his last NBA game, he was contemplating a comeback - until his most devastating injury took hold. He got up and couldn't walk. His foot and ankle were so badly damaged that they were partially dislocated and the disintegrating bones were grinding together.

 

[elindholm]

Here is a recap of the legacy of Bill Walton, who came into the NBA much more heralded than Len. After you read it, the question is will he lead us to some championships with an on-again/off-again career?

Who? Len or Walton? Why would you even pose the question about Len, immediately after acknowledging the obvious that Walton was a far, far more able player?

 

[Phrazbit]

Yeah, lost in all of the fear and debate about the fear of Len's ankles is the original debate about if a guy who was so underwhelming in college was worth the pick based on talent.

Walton was a legendary player before he ever put on an NBA uniform and he had an equally legendary run of injuries. I already know Len is not the former... I can only hope he isnt the latter. Comparing him to Walton seems unfair to both men.

 

[Gaddabout]

I don't dismiss Len's injuries but the Suns trainers have been resoundingly successful so I'm much more sanguine than Cheese and Eric. I think the odds favor him staying reasonably healthy.

As a wanna-be etymologist, your use of the word 'sanguine' makes me want to stab someone in the eye. A disapproving look will have to suffice. Don't buy into the hype. The French had it right. Stupid Brits had to go and ruin it.

I think a lot of us are too quick to judge Len. In fact, I think there won't be a whole lot to assess of him this year, even though I think he will play a lot of minutes when he's healthy. As Suns fans who remember Georgi Gluchkov know, language is the biggest barrier to a foreign player acclimating to the NBA. Gluchkov and Len are from towns about 900 miles apart. When Len arrived at Maryland he didn't speak English and didn't have a clue about American culture. His play improved as his understanding of English improved. He was miserable in college because of the language barrier, and he wasn't very interested in school in his own language. We can indict the Univ. of Maryland another time. Just pointing out Len's own unique challenges.

We're talking about a guy who didn't discover basketball until his teens, and is really a converted gymnast playing with cultural handicap. We're not talking about Skita, who came out of the womb playing professional basketball.

Furthermore, Len's college diet has been, shall we say, lean on nutrition and heavy on garbage. It was only in the last year his girlfriend got him at least eating better so that he has learned the relationship between diet and performance. It's not perfect. We're talking about moving up to Boston Market from Burger King.

I didn't like the pick and there are lots of things I find suspect about Len, the least of which is his already-suspect ability to sustain healthy feet, ankles and knees. I never understood the furor over a kid whose numbers didn't substantially improve with more minutes from freshman to sophomore year. But, with some hindsight into what was going on in the background, I think it's enough of a reason to give Len a pass for a year. What else are we gonna do? Hopefully not complain about it for a whole season.

 

[Neo]

As a wanna-be etymologist, your use of the word 'sanguine' makes me want to stab someone in the eye.

I would not want to imply you are a nimrod or to ostracize you over this, but if you are upset over etymology of words, you may end up in an emotional shambles.

Etymology
nimrod = mighty hunter
ostrasize = vote using tiles
shambles = bench

I get that this is a sports message board during the offseason, but if we are looking at getting upset over word origins, then we are really scraping the bottom of the barrel for conversation topics.

Training camp cannot get here soon enough.

 

[Mainstreet]

Yeah, lost in all of the fear and debate about the fear of Len's ankles is the original debate about if a guy who was so underwhelming in college was worth the pick based on talent.

Walton was a legendary player before he ever put on an NBA uniform and he had an equally legendary run of injuries. I already know Len is not the former... I can only hope he isnt the latter. Comparing him to Walton seems unfair to both men.

I think it all comes down to this, there were no clear stars in the draft. Archie Goodwin might be as good a pick at #29 in a few years as any player in the draft. This draft was a gamble from top to bottom. McDonough gambled on a player he liked and followed in Len. We shall see how it works out. I prefer to remain optimistic until proven otherwise.

 

[Errntknght]

Gaddabout:

As a wanna-be etymologist, your use of the word 'sanguine' makes me want to stab someone in the eye. A disapproving look will have to suffice. Don't buy into the hype. The French had it right. Stupid Brits had to go and ruin it.

What does the OED say about it - my best dictionary says this usage dates from medieval times. Too bad you weren't around to set everyone straight when it might have done some good! But even then stabbing someone in the eye was frowned upon.

 

[elindholm]

Gaddabout: What does the OED say about it - my best dictionary says this usage dates from medieval times. Too bad you weren't around to set everyone straight when it might have done some good! But even then stabbing someone in the eye was frowned upon.

LOL

 

[BC867]

Why would you even pose the question about Len, immediately after acknowledging the obvious that Walton was a far, far more able player?

There is an interesting post. Why would I have to justify to another participant my posing a question (citing similar medical problems) on a Suns forum?

OK. Why would I pose the question about Len? Because, at this time, he is our Center of the future, beginning his NBA career with foot problems similar to those that limited Bill Walton during his career.

My question was . . .

Here is a recap of the legacy of Bill Walton, who came into the NBA much more heralded than Len. After you read it, the question is will he lead us to some championships with an on-again/off-again career?

I am interested in seeing the opinions of various posters to this board about the future they see for Len as a Phoenix Sun.

 

[elindholm]

There is an interesting post. Why would I have to justify to another participant my posing a question (citing similar medical problems) on a Suns forum?

Of course you don't have to justify it; we're all relieved that it wasn't another rant about how John McLeod's hatred of centers cost the Suns a title.

I just don't understand why you'd bring up Walton. Yes, Walton also had foot problems, and they significantly reduced the impact of his career. But a "healthy Walton," in those rare cases when such a creature existed, was 1000 times the player Len will ever be. You might as well compare Len to Arvydas Sabonis, or a bison, or God. "God created the world in six days. What does that tell us about Len's rehab schedule?"

I am interested in seeing the opinions of various posters to this board about the future they see for Len as a Phoenix Sun.

I'm sure that my opinion is not one of those that you're interested in, but I'll give it anyway. I see Len's future as a Phoenix Sun as limited and uneventful. Comparing him to Walton, who was arguably the greatest college big man of all time*, doesn't influence my assessment of Len one way or the other.

*Chuck Klosterman ranks him second, behind Alcindor: http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id...-greatest-college-basketball-players-all-time

 

[Mainstreet]

I am interested in seeing the opinions of various posters to this board about the future they see for Len as a Phoenix Sun.

Actually, I find it interesting to look at Len through the eyes of McDonough, the talent evaluator/ GM. I'd like to believe he and the scouting staff got the selection of Len right. If not, this is at least one test he failed. I like the selection of Archie Goodwin with a late first round so this gives me hope that he got it right with Len as well. If he had doubts about Len, it would have been wise to trade down in the draft or make another selection. It's not good to be a new GM and get his first draft selection at #5 wrong.

 

[BC867]

...we're all relieved that it wasn't another rant about how John McLeod's hatred of centers cost the Suns a title.

Sad response to a discussion about Len's injury problems. And are you really speaking for all Arizona Sports Fans Network posters?

I just don't understand why you'd bring up Walton. Yes, Walton also had foot problems, and they significantly reduced the impact of his career.

You just answered your own question.

You might as well compare Len to Arvydas Sabonis, or a bison, or God. "God created the world in six days. What does that tell us about Len's rehab schedule?"

You remind me of a definition I read about sarcasm. It is a coward's way of insulting.

I'm sure that my opinion is not one of those that you're interested in, but I'll give it anyway.

So now you are speaking for me, too. Wrong!

Shame on you, Eric. I wish you peace of mind.

 

[elindholm]

Sad response to a discussion about Len's injury problems. And are you really speaking for all Arizona Sports Fans Network posters?

Yes. Would you like to post a poll?

You remind me of a definition I read about sarcasm. It is a coward's way of insulting... Shame on you, Eric. I wish you peace of mind.

Yes, it's too bad I don't have the courage to be patronizing, as you so admirably model. Oops, I guess that was sarcastic again.

 

[elindholm]

Actually, I find it interesting to look at Len through the eyes of McDonough, the talent evaluator/ GM. I'd like to believe he and the scouting staff got the selection of Len right.

But that's circular. Len must be a good pick because McDonough knows what he's doing, and the proof that McDonough knows what he's doing is that he picked Len. The whole argument collapses if you don't buy in to either assumption.

Having said that, even good GMs make draft mistakes. If Len proves to be a bust, that won't necessarily be an indictment on McDonough. It was a weak draft, after all.

 

[Mainstreet]

But that's circular. Len must be a good pick because McDonough knows what he's doing, and the proof that McDonough knows what he's doing is that he picked Len. The whole argument collapses if you don't buy in to either assumption.

I don't see the argument as circular. McDonough has done a good job of acquiring draft picks and a potentially good player in Bledsoe for the Suns. However, evaluating talent is supposed to be an area of expertise. If Len should prove a bad pick at #5, I think it hurts his credibility at least in regard to the draft. I do not worry about Len's talent as I believe he can develop into a solid center. But if his injury is more severe than expected, that's on McDonough, because it was a known factor.

Having said that, even good GMs make draft mistakes. If Len proves to be a bust, that won't necessarily be an indictment on McDonough. It was a weak draft, after all.

Now this does sound like a circular argument.

 

[elindholm]

I don't see the argument as circular. McDonough has done a good job of acquiring draft picks and a potentially good player in Bledsoe for the Suns.

He has followed a consistent strategy, which has been to liquidate current short-term assets for future ones. It makes sense well enough, but I don't regard it as particularly insightful. Dudley and Scola, even though they didn't fit into the Suns' plans, both had solid trade value. McDonough got okay deals for them, but not great ones.

I do not worry about Len's talent as I believe he can develop into a solid center. But if his injury is more severe than expected, that's on McDonough, because it was a known factor.

The second ankle injury wasn't a known factor, but to me, that's not really the point. The question to me is whether the potential reward of drafting Len outweighed the potential risks, given where the Suns were in the draft. I think the answer is no, the risks should have prevailed -- not because the risks were so severe, but because the reward is quite limited. I just don't see how anyone can project Len as an impact player in the NBA given how little he did in college. Why draft a guy with such a low ceiling if you aren't even confident he'll be healthy enough to play?

Even so, if drafting him was a mistake, it wasn't a huge one, because there weren't a lot of good options on the board. At the time, I would have preferred McLemore, but so far it's looking as though McDonough did well to steer clear of him. Trading down might have paid off, but it's nearly impossible to react on the fly during an unpredictable draft in which each team has only five minutes per pick.

Now this does sound like a circular argument.

I think we must have different understandings of what "circular argument" means.

 

[Gaddabout]

I would not want to imply you are a nimrod or to ostracize you over this, but if you are upset over etymology of words, you may end up in an emotional shambles.

Etymology
nimrod = mighty hunter
ostrasize = vote using tiles
shambles = bench

I get that this is a sports message board during the offseason, but if we are looking at getting upset over word origins, then we are really scraping the bottom of the barrel for conversation topics.

Training camp cannot get here soon enough.

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[Gaddabout]

Gaddabout: What does the OED say about it - my best dictionary says this usage dates from medieval times. Too bad you weren't around to set everyone straight when it might have done some good! But even then stabbing someone in the eye was frowned upon.

Depends upon which king your served.

To be sure, I was just razzing you over my own petty, private war with the modern English language. Sanguine has origins in bloodletting. It's meant to describe someone as "flush" or "blood-red." It led to a host of wonderfully awful medical descriptors, such as "exsanguinated." It was really the Brits' misunderstanding of the word and medical science that led to the newer definition.

 

[FutureSuperstar]

Not sure why people are valuing College Stats so much - There is not a direct link between Stats and NBA success especially for big guys

For ex. a 6-10 guy who averaged 10-10 could be undrafted and have little NBA success because of a lack of NBA talent / size ... A 7-1 guy w/ the same stats could have NBA talent and "fit" better in the NBA game, be a top pick, star, etc.

People are also criticizing Len's stats too much anyway - He averaged 12 and 8 in 26 mpg, which is 18 and 12 in 40 mpg - Not amazing, but not terrible either

As a Maryland student, I watched all his games also - He was not assertive enough sure, but he also didn't get many touches a lot of game because of Poor PG play ... As a 19 year old just learning English I don't think it's a big deal his "assertiveness" issue - That can be fixed ... Maryland also turned the ball over a ton and had terrible 3-point shooting - Not a good Mix for a Center who needs the ball in the post w/ room to operate

People who were upset Len didn't have better #'s also have to realize that if he had better #'s, he would have been one of the best Draft prospects in the last decade !!! ... A Guy who dominated College Basketball (20-12 maybe ???), who's 7-1, agile, only 20, just started playing basketball at age 15, etc. ... he would have been the #1 Pick ... Keep that in mind - His stats aren't mind-blowing, but that's why he was the 5th Pick and not #1

 

[elindholm]

A 7-1 guy w/ the same stats (10-10) could have NBA talent and "fit" better in the NBA game, be a top pick, star, etc.

Really? Who are some examples of 7' 1" guys that averaged 10-10 in college and became NBA stars?

Keep that in mind - His stats aren't mind-blowing, but that's why he was the 5th Pick and not #1

He was #1 on some mock draft boards right up until draft day. I think that just shows how weak and uncertain this draft was. Of course, McLemore was #1 on a lot of boards, and he ended up going even lower.