New injury updates on Len, Gortat and Lee

[Errntknght]

Gaddabout:

Sanguine has origins in bloodletting. It's meant to describe someone as "flush" or "blood-red." It led to a host of wonderfully awful medical descriptors, such as "exsanguinated." It was really the Brits' misunderstanding of the word and medical science that led to the newer definition.

'Sanquis' is the latin word for blood and as is quite common in English, we picked 'sangui-' as the combining form. Does it seem wrong to do that - for this root in particular or the whole method of word formation?
I wouldn't be surprised if it was used in connection with bloodletting though I haven't run across that yet. But then I'm looking in English language dictionaries so perhaps what I'm seeing is the result of a centuries old conspiracy to consistently misinterpret the latin. It even shows up the same in my French dictionary... oh, published by Websters, so obviously suspect.
Why don't you give us the real scoop - I really can't understand what you're getting at. Exactly what did the Brits misunderstand and what did the French get right. Stop teasing.

 

[hcsilla]

Really? Who are some examples of 7' 1" guys that averaged 10-10 in college and became NBA stars?

Derrick Favors comes to my mind who is even a few inches smaller, had about 10/10 (actually 12,5/8,5) in college and obviously not a star yet, but thus season might be his break-out year.

 

[Errntknght]

I think Len is going to have a great career with the Suns, culminating in at least one championship. My reasoning is simple - at my age I probably won't live long enough to see the Suns through another cycle so this one has to be a huge success.

 

[Phrazbit]

Depends upon which king your served.

To be sure, I was just razzing you over my own petty, private war with the modern English language. Sanguine has origins in bloodletting. It's meant to describe someone as "flush" or "blood-red." It led to a host of wonderfully awful medical descriptors, such as "exsanguinated." It was really the Brits' misunderstanding of the word and medical science that led to the newer definition.

Misunderstanding? Says you. I have it on good authority that the Suns training staff's secret is they've gone back to using the Four Humors to make all of their diagnoses.

Nash was kept healthy through a strict regimen of blood letting and other various purges.

 

[Superbone]

Nash was kept healthy through a strict regimen of blood letting and other various purges.

Such as the money purge he's undergoing now thanks to his divorce?

 

[elindholm]

Derrick Favors comes to my mind who is even a few inches smaller, had about 10/10 (actually 12,5/8,5) in college and obviously not a star yet, but thus season might be his break-out year.

Yeah, they seem to say that about Favors every year. I'll believe it when I see it.

 

[FutureSuperstar]

Really? Who are some examples of 7' 1" guys that averaged 10-10 in college and became NBA stars?

Roy Hibbert, Maybe Andre Drummond too ... My point is that there is not a strong correlation between college stats and NBA success especially for a guy who only played 1 or 2 years in College

Just looked it up and Hibbert averaged about 13 and 6.5 rpg his last 2 years in college playing the same minutes as Len ... So this is a guy who played all 4 years in College, didn't even improve between his junior and senior years, and he still has succeeded in the NBA and improved a lot

On the other hand, Len has similar stats, but has showed improvement in College from Year 1 to 2 and is 2 years younger than Hibbert when drafted.

There's also been a lot of NBA Big Guys out of high school that have struggled their 1st 2+ years in the league, which shows they most likely wouldn't have dominated College in those Years - KG, Bynum, etc. ... It's just rare for a Big guy to Dominate College (Again though Len averaged 18 and 12 / 40 minutes) scoring-wise in his freshman/sophomore year no matter how talented a guy is ... Not even considering the specific situation Len had to play under last year

 

[Cheesebeef]

There's also been a lot of NBA Big Guys out of high school that have struggled their 1st 2+ years in the league, which shows they most likely wouldn't have dominated College in those Years - KG, Bynum, etc. ... It's just rare for a Big guy to Dominate College (Again though Len averaged 18 and 12 / 40 minutes) scoring-wise in his freshman/sophomore year no matter how talented a guy is ... Not even considering the specific situation Len had to play under last year

uh...what? KG, Bynum wouldn't have dominated college because they didn't dominate the NBA right away? That's a pretty baseless argument. the competition they would have faced at college versus the competition they faced in the NBA can be in no way shape or form compared. the idea that KG/Bynum wouldn't have dominated is laughable...especially KG. Playing against kids their own age versus battle tested veterans...man...I don't even know what more to say about that comment.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Really? Who are some examples of 7' 1" guys that averaged 10-10 in college and became NBA stars?

Roy Hibbert, Maybe Andre Drummond too ... My point is that there is not a strong correlation between college stats and NBA success especially for a guy who only played 1 or 2 years in College

Just looked it up and Hibbert averaged about 13 and 6.5 rpg his last 2 years in college playing the same minutes as Len ... So this is a guy who played all 4 years in College, didn't even improve between his junior and senior years, and he still has succeeded in the NBA and improved a lot

all of this is true...and if we had taken Len with the 17th pick, I'd be more then okay with him. but at pick #5? and Andre Drummond...is a star? He's averaged 7.9 points and 7.6 boards. kinda early to say he's a star at this point...even a maybe.

 

[FutureSuperstar]

uh...what? KG, Bynum wouldn't have dominated college because they didn't dominate the NBA right away? That's a pretty baseless argument. the competition they would have faced at college versus the competition they faced in the NBA can be in no way shape or form compared. the idea that KG/Bynum wouldn't have dominated is laughable...especially KG. Playing against kids their own age versus battle tested veterans...man...I don't even know what more to say about that comment.

So you're saying that my argument that Bynum / KG wouldn't have averaged 25 points / per 40 minutes in College their 1st 2 years (Which would have been better than Len's #'s) is a baseless argument? How exactly?

People talking about stats are lost because the main goal in college is not to get higher #'s, it's to WIN GAMES ... Would Len be a better prospect if he got a few more touches, shot a few more times and averaged 5 more points per 40 minutes? No, he would be the exact same player, even if he had better stats

I watched Maryland last year - We went like 13-1 to start the season w/ Len playing about 25 minutes per game because we blew out teams ... he probably averaged only 13 ppg, but could have easily averaged more if he played more, demanded the ball more, was more selfish, etc. - But that wouldn't have helped the team win ... Because we won those games anyway

The idea that a 19 year old Center, who anchored one of the best rebounding teams in the league (Maryland was Top 5 I think in rebounding differential), anchored a Top defense, just started playing basketball 5 years ago, who is thrown into a new culture, who had terrible PG play all here (Maryland was one of the worst TO teams in the country), who was on a team who shot 33% from 3-point land (No space for him) ... Is criticized because he averaged 12 and 8 in 26 mpg (18 and 12 in 40 minutes (Comparable stats to the top centers in the country) is absurd - All I'm saying is people criticizing Len's stats are not looking at any context at all (How many minutes he played, all the things I mentioned)

You can criticize his weaknesses / health, but his stats should not be used against him ...

I said Drummond may be a star and being one of the best players from the 2012 Draft already after just averaging 8-8 college proves my point that College Stats are meaningless for centers when evaluating NBA potential (Why was Noel picked over Plumlee for example? Plumlee's stats were better)

 

[elindholm]

I watched Maryland last year - We went like 13-1 to start the season w/ Len playing about 25 minutes per game because we blew out teams ... he probably averaged only 13 ppg, but could have easily averaged more if he played more, demanded the ball more, was more selfish, etc. - But that wouldn't have helped the team win ... Because we won those games anyway

But one of the basic strategies to winning games is getting the ball into the hands of your best offensive players. If "winning games" meant keeping the ball away from Len, that's not a very good endorsement of his skills, is it?

 

[FutureSuperstar]

uh...what? KG, Bynum wouldn't have dominated college because they didn't dominate the NBA right away? That's a pretty baseless argument. the competition they would have faced at college versus the competition they faced in the NBA can be in no way shape or form compared. the idea that KG/Bynum wouldn't have dominated is laughable...especially KG. Playing against kids their own age versus battle tested veterans...man...I don't even know what more to say about that comment.

I just realized you completely mis-quoted me in this post - You said I said "KG, Bynum wouldn't have dominated college because they didn't dominate the NBA right away" ... I did not say anything close to that - I said they wouldn't dominate College "scoring-wise" because they did NOTHING (I didn't say "not dominate") in the NBA their 1st 2 years ... A 19 and 20 year old in the NBA who barely plays his 1st 2 years in my opinion would not dominate College basketball "scoring-wise" during those years - Your argument that that type of player would, would be a baseless argument ...

 

[FutureSuperstar]

But one of the basic strategies to winning games is getting the ball into the hands of your best offensive players. If "winning games" meant keeping the ball away from Len, that's not a very good endorsement of his skills, is it?

What? Have you watched the Spurs or any successful team in the last 20 years? Balance scoring wins games, not having your best player just demand the ball to beef up his stats ... When you're playing inferior competition like we were to start the year, there's no point in exhausting your best players - When the Heat play the Bobcats, does Lebron play 40 minutes, demand the ball, and up his #'s - No, he just goes w/ the flow and passes the ball to the open man ... Does that mean "winning games" means keeping the ball away from Lebron, no, not at all

 

[SirStefan32]

What? Have you watched the Spurs or any successful team in the last 20 years? Balance scoring wins games, not having your best player just demand the ball to beef up his stats ... When you're playing inferior competition like we were to start the year, there's no point in exhausting your best players - When the Heat play the Bobcats, does Lebron play 40 minutes, demand the ball, and up his #'s - No, he just goes w/ the flow and passes the ball to the open man ... Does that mean "winning games" means keeping the ball away from Lebron, no, not at all

Welcome to the board, Comrade Alex!
That's a terrible comparison. Len is no Duncan or Lebron, and we are not talking about a single game here- we are talking about an entire season.

Having said that, Maryland guards were terrible- they really didn't like to throw the ball inside. I really think Len was underused partly due to Maryland guards, and part of it due to him just not being aggressive enough and demanding the ball.

 

[FutureSuperstar]

Welcome to the board, Comrade Alex!
That's a terrible comparison. Len is no Duncan or Lebron, and we are not talking about a single game here- we are talking about an entire season.

Having said that, Maryland guards were terrible- they really didn't like to throw the ball inside. I really think Len was underused partly due to Maryland guards, and part of it due to him just not being aggressive enough and demanding the ball.

The fact that he is no Lebron / Duncan is exactly my point ... The Heat don't even need Lebron when playing inferior teams, so the fact that Maryland doesn't need Len is an insult to Len? If you believe that, then you're basically saying Len is better than Lebron ...

And compared to the teams Maryland was playing early in the year, they were most definitely the "Best Team in the NBA" vs. "The worst team in the NBA" ... Turgeon played a 10 man rotation early and used a balanced attack just like all the great teams do against inferior teams

And I actually was just talking about the 13 games, not the whole season, because that was what I was called out on ...

I admit Len wasn't assertiveness much for most of the season - That's a weakness sure, but not that big of a deal ... I think it's better for a guy to be unselfish and be team-1st than demanding the ball more and shooting over double-team, especially for a young big guy trying to learn his way

Also another point in Len's favor is that when we weren't playing inferior teams and we needed him, he stepped up (Against Plumlee, Noel - Small sample size sure, but it's still a sample) - VERY Rare for a college player to do that (Play better against better competition ... I think that aspect is very encouraging for his NBA future, as the Suns GM said)

 

[elindholm]

What? Have you watched the Spurs or any successful team in the last 20 years? Balance scoring wins games, not having your best player just demand the ball to beef up his stats

It's not about the best player "demanding the ball." You go to where your greatest strength is. If LeBron James can score one-on-one almost every time, and the defense doesn't react by double-teaming him or figuring out a way to deny him the ball, then you get James the ball every single possession, whether he "demands" it or not. It's not a democracy. Once the defense reacts to take away your best option, then you start looking elsewhere, but until they do, make them pay.

You can't decide what your argument is. Maybe Len didn't impact the stat sheet because he was too young. No, it's because the guards didn't get him the ball. No, it's because winning was more important, and somehow it was better for the bad guards to be taking shots than the NBA-caliber center. No, it's because Len was being careful not to be selfish, "going with the flow" to the tune of 1.0 assists per game. No, it's because...

A string of alibis like that is a big warning sign. Very few college players have NBA talent. Those that do should be "men among boys" every time they take the court. Every time. Most scouts didn't see that in Len, I didn't see that in Len in the clips I watched, and coaches in his conference didn't see that in Len when they did their all-conference voting.

 

[BC867]

I think Len is going to have a great career with the Suns, culminating in at least one championship. My reasoning is simple - at my age I probably won't live long enough to see the Suns through another cycle so this one has to be a huge success.

If you really meant that, you would become a double-ankle donor immediately.

 

[FutureSuperstar]

It's not about the best player "demanding the ball." You go to where your greatest strength is. If LeBron James can score one-on-one almost every time, and the defense doesn't react by double-teaming him or figuring out a way to deny him the ball, then you get James the ball every single possession, whether he "demands" it or not. It's not a democracy. Once the defense reacts to take away your best option, then you start looking elsewhere, but until they do, make them pay.

You can't decide what your argument is. Maybe Len didn't impact the stat sheet because he was too young. No, it's because the guards didn't get him the ball. No, it's because winning was more important, and somehow it was better for the bad guards to be taking shots than the NBA-caliber center. No, it's because Len was being careful not to be selfish, "going with the flow" to the tune of 1.0 assists per game. No, it's because...

A string of alibis like that is a big warning sign. Very few college players have NBA talent. Those that do should be "men among boys" every time they take the court. Every time. Most scouts didn't see that in Len, I didn't see that in Len in the clips I watched, and coaches in his conference didn't see that in Len when they did their all-conference voting.

On your 1st Paragraph - I agree with you and that's what Maryland did a lot of time ...

Your whole 2nd Paragraph are not excuses or arguments - They are REASONS ... factual reasons - Everything that I have mentioned is a fact from last season ... I find it extremely weird how you think me stating so much context is a bad thing (If I just stating he's young I'm sure you would come back w/ "That's not enough", so I kept going on and on and on to explain why Len's #'s last year were bad to give context ... How does that weaken my argument?)

About the "going with the flow" that comment was just in regards to the 1st 13 games or so when Maryland blew out teams w/ a balanced attack - I agree with you that Len was passive the 2nd half of the season too much

I also find it weird how coaches didn't name him to the All-Conference team, but again Len as College Player was not "that impactful" because of all the reasons in the 2nd Paragraph (Again, not excuses, they're reasons ... ) ...

Len's game is built for the NBA - He needs space to work with in the Post, he needs 3-point shooters to space the floor, his agility is built for the fact-paced NBA, etc. - I understand a lot of people are constructively criticizing him, but you should know all of the context of last season before doing so

 

[sunsfan88]

Len's 3pt shooting spacers are going to be Markieff Morris, Channing Frye, Kendall Marshall and probably Archie Goodwin.

....fml

 

[Errntknght]

sunsfan88:

Len's 3pt shooting spacers are going to be Markieff Morris, Channing Frye, Kendall Marshall and probably Archie Goodwin

Don't forget Marcus Morris, Gerald Green, Caron Butler, Dragic and to a lesser extent Bledsoe. The first three of them really like to launch and they aren't all that bad - especially compared to Beas, Brown and Wes Johnson. Oh thats right Brown will be back, too.

 

[sunsfan88]

sunsfan88:

Don't forget Marcus Morris, Gerald Green, Caron Butler, Dragic and to a lesser extent Bledsoe. The first three of them really like to launch and they aren't all that bad - especially compared to Beas, Brown and Wes Johnson. Oh thats right Brown will be back, too.

Yea but Len is going to be playing with the 2nd unit right since Gortat is the unquestioned starter here. At least for most of the season that he will be here. And I can't see Marcus Morris getting playing time over either Tucker or Butler.

Oh yea, should add Tucker to the list of shooters that Len is going to be playing with since Butler is likely to start.

 

[Errntknght]

Gortat is the starter but he's a lame duck so I'd expect Hornacek to play Len with the starters increasingly as the year goes on. Hopefully Gortat will be gone sooner rather than later - to that end I pray he plays great for his national team and generates a demand for his services.

I can't see Caron starting over PJ as the latter is one of our better fast break players and a better defender as well. Heck, Gerald Green may be second in line at the 3 if he works hard and follows instructions, i.e. if he plays like he wants to make a place for himself here. The only incentive to play Caron is if McD thinks trading him is a possibility and wants to showcase him.

 

[Phrazbit]

There are hardly any set roles, or positions for that matter, on this team. Every rotation player will probably see minutes with every other rotation player.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Here is a recap of the legacy of Bill Walton, who came into the NBA much more heralded than Len. After you read it, the question is will he lead us to some championships with an on-again/off-again career?

Walton was and is a vegetarian. I have alway believed that nutritional deficiencies contributed to his chronic injury problems. It's not that you can't be a vegetarian and perfectly healthy, but I Believe the knowledge About how to do that was not widely known Among college students in that era. Just a conjecture.

 

[95pro]

Walton was and is a vegetarian. I have alway believed that nutritional deficiencies contributed to his chronic injury problems. It's not that you can't be a vegetarian and perfectly healthy, but I Believe the knowledge About how to do that was not widely known Among college students in that era. Just a conjecture.

I'm with you on that.