New Zealand Breakers at Suns, 10-3-18 (preseason)

[JCSunsfan]

Just watched last night's game on my DVR. I have two thoughts:

1. Ayton is going to be terrifyingly awesome... on both ends of the court in a couple years.

2. Bender plays like the stumbling/bumbling NBA players in Space Jam after their talent was sucked out of them by the Monstars.

Damn is he atrocious.

In a couple years is being quite conservative. With Ayton, you can just see greatness in front of you, even at this age.

 

[sunsfan88]

Players have been warned that referees will be allowing even less contact this season on perimeter ball-handlers, that might have something to do with his struggles.

Jesus, is the NBA following the NFL’s lead with how they protect QBs and offensive players in that league?

 

[AzStevenCal]

Jesus, is the NBA following the NFL’s lead with how they protect QBs and offensive players in that league?

Like any NFL fan, I like the big hits. But I think they should have been protecting QB's and helpless receivers for decades, they waited far too long IMO. Not that it matters, IMO the NFL is dying a slow death with or without the protection rules.

As for the NBA rules, I love the changes. A defender should not be able to use any form of contact to prevent a ball handler from going where he wants to. Now, if the league would apply the same rule to the guys on offense this would be a huge step forward. They (refs, announcers etc.) always used to say it's a foul if a player initiates contact and gains an advantage because of it, I'd love to see a return to that. Sure it will hurt Chris Paul, James Harden, Lebron James and others but it will be a better game for it. JMO.

 

[Hoop Head]

Like any NFL fan, I like the big hits. But I think they should have been protecting QB's and helpless receivers for decades, they waited far too long IMO. Not that it matters, IMO the NFL is dying a slow death with or without the protection rules.

As for the NBA rules, I love the changes. A defender should not be able to use any form of contact to prevent a ball handler from going where he wants to. Now, if the league would apply the same rule to the guys on offense this would be a huge step forward. They (refs, announcers etc.) always used to say it's a foul if a player initiates contact and gains an advantage because of it, I'd love to see a return to that. Sure it will hurt Chris Paul, James Harden, Lebron James and others but it will be a better game for it. JMO.

It's taken a while to get used to the changes with the NBA and it has hurt some, IMO. Particularly low post offense, and defense. Without contact it's not the same and it's odd that teams don't rely on that more and use it offensively but the rise of the 3pt shot has sort of kept teams from exploiting others in the post, which is good I guess.

 

[AzStevenCal]

It's taken a while to get used to the changes with the NBA and it has hurt some, IMO. Particularly low post offense, and defense. Without contact it's not the same and it's odd that teams don't rely on that more and use it offensively but the rise of the 3pt shot has sort of kept teams from exploiting others in the post, which is good I guess.

You think that's hurt the league? I think it's helped them financially and in global interest. Low post offense went away because there simply aren't many efficient low post scorers and the new rules opened up eyes about using the Jahlil Okafors and Alex Lens of the league. The rules changes over the past 25 years (zones for example) did help that happen but they really didn't change much about contact down low. IMO it's mostly a return to the basketball I grew up watching before the days of Mike Fratello and Chuck Daly (among others).

 

[Hoop Head]

You think that's hurt the league? I think it's helped them financially and in global interest. Low post offense went away because there simply aren't many efficient low post scorers and the new rules opened up eyes about using the Jahlil Okafors and Alex Lens of the league. The rules changes over the past 25 years (zones for example) did help that happen but they really didn't change much about contact down low. IMO it's mostly a return to the basketball I grew up watching before the days of Mike Fratello and Chuck Daly (among others).

I think it's hurt the product some. Gone are the days of Barkley dominating a game in the post, on both sides of the ball. It's a personal preference on my part so maybe it hasn't hurt the league in terms of expansion to new market but I do know some older fans dislike all of the changes that have brought a more offensively dominate league with little to no contact because allowed. The only things allowed are what you described with offensive players initiating contract on the perimeter and contact in the paint.

I know there aren't as many good low post players today but that's in part because of how the rules have changed. Players aren't learning to play in the post like older generations have. Shooting is the big thing now and there is a generation of players who grew up with the 7 seconds for less Suns as the modern Warriors in terms of fast paced and exciting basketball. It would be nice if the Suns won titles like the Warriors but they were a key part of the league changing to how it is now. So we benefitted from it a good bit as Suns fan but I think all of the changes has also taken time to translate to the talent entering the league. Every year there are more players ready to play the new fast style and more teams adopting it because the talent is there to copy it.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I think it's hurt the product some. Gone are the days of Barkley dominating a game in the post, on both sides of the ball. It's a personal preference on my part so maybe it hasn't hurt the league in terms of expansion to new market but I do know some older fans dislike all of the changes that have brought a more offensively dominate league with little to no contact because allowed. The only things allowed are what you described with offensive players initiating contract on the perimeter and contact in the paint.

I know there aren't as many good low post players today but that's in part because of how the rules have changed. Players aren't learning to play in the post like older generations have. Shooting is the big thing now and there is a generation of players who grew up with the 7 seconds for less Suns as the modern Warriors in terms of fast paced and exciting basketball. It would be nice if the Suns won titles like the Warriors but they were a key part of the league changing to how it is now. So we benefitted from it a good bit as Suns fan but I think all of the changes has also taken time to translate to the talent entering the league. Every year there are more players ready to play the new fast style and more teams adopting it because the talent is there to copy it.

You miss Butt Ball? I've been following the game since the days of Wilt and Unseld and I hated the way Barkley and Shaq were allowed to play the game. They were both far too skilled to have their games reduced to that IMO.

 

[Hoop Head]

You miss Butt Ball? I've been following the game since the days of Wilt and Unseld and I hated the way Barkley and Shaq were allowed to play the game. They were both far too skilled to have their games reduced to that IMO.

Maybe since it was 20 years ago I remember it fondly as nostalgia rather than actual quality. The scoring was high then though. It didn't stop the game entirely. I've watched a number of the Suns playoff games from the Barkley era on NBA TV over the last few years and they were high scoring and exciting games, even with the "butt ball". Like I said, it may be nostalgia painting it better than it was. Now it's so perimeter oriented that I find it a little dull and predictable. It's turned into video game basketball, in a way.

 

[SirStefan32]

Maybe since it was 20 years ago I remember it fondly as nostalgia rather than actual quality. The scoring was high then though. It didn't stop the game entirely. I've watched a number of the Suns playoff games from the Barkley era on NBA TV over the last few years and they were high scoring and exciting games, even with the "butt ball". Like I said, it may be nostalgia painting it better than it was. Now it's so perimeter oriented that I find it a little dull and predictable. It's turned into video game basketball, in a way.

I am with you. I miss the old days when David Robinson, Hakeem Olajuwon, Patrick Ewing would go up against each other, or Malone and Barkley.

 

[Raindog]

Now it's so perimeter oriented that I find it a little dull and predictable. It's turned into video game basketball, in a way.

Totally agree. The emphasis on 3-point shooting and perimeter play now has ruined the game in my opinion, particularly if one or both teams aren't shooting well. You end up watching two teams throwing up bricks on one end of the floor, and then run down to the other end just to do the same thing... over and over again.

Before the game became so perimeter dominated, there was a lot more diversity in how teams created offense, which in turn, made for a more entertaining product. Now it's either shoot a three or pick-and-roll... and almost nothing else.

 

[Mainstreet]

Totally agree. The emphasis on 3-point shooting and perimeter play now has ruined the game in my opinion, particularly if one or both teams aren't shooting well. You end up watching two teams throwing up bricks on one end of the floor, and then run down to the other end just to do the same thing... over and over again.

Before the game became so perimeter dominated, there was a lot more diversity in how teams created offense, which in turn, made for a more entertaining product. Now it's either shoot a three or pick-and-roll... and almost nothing else.

Hopefully the Suns with Ayton will go a long ways towards breaking the mold although 3 point shooting is here to stay.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Maybe since it was 20 years ago I remember it fondly as nostalgia rather than actual quality. The scoring was high then though. It didn't stop the game entirely. I've watched a number of the Suns playoff games from the Barkley era on NBA TV over the last few years and they were high scoring and exciting games, even with the "butt ball". Like I said, it may be nostalgia painting it better than it was. Now it's so perimeter oriented that I find it a little dull and predictable. It's turned into video game basketball, in a way.

Barkley was great to watch, and then he wasn't. I loved his game until we reached the point in his career where he would dribble the ball for 20 seconds trying to butt his defender in deep enough for an easy shot. That was horrible basketball IMO. If another Robinson or Olajuwon comes along, I'm confident we'll see some entertaining low post play. Actually, with Ayton, Embiid, Davis and the other bigs of today, we may be entering another great era of big man basketball.

 

[taz02]

I haven't researched it, but seems as if players are not as loyal to their teams/fans as they once were. It would have been unimaginable to think of Jordan joining Barkley to create a super team. I think that is what has been lost.

Barkley Suns
Jordan Bulls
Malone Utah
Robinson Spurs
Olajuwon Rockets

The personal and team rivalries seemed more prominent. Now it feels like the players are just joining the "enemy" instead of striving to beat the !@!@ out them.

 

[Mainstreet]

I haven't researched it, but seems as if players are not as loyal to their teams/fans as they once were. It would have been unimaginable to think of Jordan joining Barkley to create a super team. I think that is what has been lost.

Barkley Suns
Jordan Bulls
Malone Utah
Robinson Spurs
Olajuwon Rockets

The personal and team rivalries seemed more prominent. Now it feels like the players are just joining the "enemy" instead of striving to beat the !@!@ out them.

This was talked about during the last game by Suns announcers.

Players know each other, play together growing up and are frequently friends off the court. Players have a different attitude these days because of it.

 

[AzStevenCal]

This was talked about during the last game by Suns announcers.

Players know each other, play together growing up and are frequently friends off the court. Players have a different attitude these days because of it.

Also, free agency rules and salary cap limits changed over time, allowing for and/or causing more movement.

 

[Mainstreet]

Also, free agency rules and salary cap limits changed over time, allowing for and/or causing more movement.

All good points.

 

[High Stakes]

Seriously, I have been reading a few basketball "experts" discussing our theory on JJ at PG. Plus some good posts regarding Okobo. If all you want is a veteran, we have two of those. Besides we all are reading the Suns are trying to get a PG in a trade. Your posts are concerning because they seem almost desperate we need a PG trade NOW! We will get one, just have some patience. It's not going to ruin anyone if we get one in twenty games or whatever. Besides you said we are only going to win 21 games anyway, so what's the hurry? If that's all we are going to win, hell there is seriously no hurry to get a PG then if that's the best we can do.

THIS

 

[1Sun]

Seriously, I have been reading a few basketball "experts" discussing our theory on JJ at PG. Plus some good posts regarding Okobo. If all you want is a veteran, we have two of those. Besides we all are reading the Suns are trying to get a PG in a trade. Your posts are concerning because they seem almost desperate we need a PG trade NOW! We will get one, just have some patience. It's not going to ruin anyone if we get one in twenty games or whatever. Besides you said we are only going to win 21 games anyway, so what's the hurry? If that's all we are going to win, hell there is seriously no hurry to get a PG then if that's the best we can do.

Except that I don't want to have to endure another year of tanking, and I'm pretty sure the young core doesn't, either...

 

[AzStevenCal]

I don't think we'll tank this season. But, IMO, even if we make a trade for a decent PG we'll still be in the lottery.

 

[1Sun]

I don't think we'll tank this season. But, IMO, even if we make a trade for a decent PG we'll still be in the lottery.

I'm okay with that, as long as the team is competitive, shows steady improvement and begins cultivating a winning culture. Unfortunately we're not seeing any of that yet.

 

[95pro]

All good points.

This was talked about during the last game by Suns announcers.

Players know each other, play together growing up and are frequently friends off the court. Players have a different attitude these days because of it.

Also, free agency rules and salary cap limits changed over time, allowing for and/or causing more movement.

Social media and AAU ruined rivalries

 

[sunsfan88]

Like any NFL fan, I like the big hits. But I think they should have been protecting QB's and helpless receivers for decades, they waited far too long IMO. Not that it matters, IMO the NFL is dying a slow death with or without the protection rules.

Their doing more than just protecting QBs though. I can understand the case for penalizing helmet hits but the whole "do not land with your full weight on a QB's body" thing is just ridiculous. As someone who's played football in my younger days, it's incredibly hard to avoid that and there was a Dolphins player who tore his ACL ending his season while attempting to do that. Not only that, but it's stupid if they are going to enforce that rule that it apparently only applies to QBs and not RBs, WRs, TEs etc.

As for the NBA rules, I love the changes. A defender should not be able to use any form of contact to prevent a ball handler from going where he wants to. Now, if the league would apply the same rule to the guys on offense this would be a huge step forward. They (refs, announcers etc.) always used to say it's a foul if a player initiates contact and gains an advantage because of it, I'd love to see a return to that. Sure it will hurt Chris Paul, James Harden, Lebron James and others but it will be a better game for it. JMO.

So I'm guessing you weren't a fan of the old school basketball back when hand checking was essentially allowed?

I don't like that both the NFL and NBA are gearing towards giving even more help to offensive players. Even Steve Kerr once said how the league is giving so much leeway for offensive players because they love all the scoring.

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Just defeats the whole purpose of defense imo.

 

[AzStevenCal]

it's incredibly hard to avoid that and there was a Dolphins player who tore his ACL ending his season while attempting to do that. Not only that, but it's stupid if they are going to enforce that rule that it apparently only applies to QBs and not RBs, WRs, TEs etc.

If you lose a TE, it might hurt your chances that season. When you lose your QB, it could well change the future of your franchise. And defensive players have been taught for decades to drive that QB into the ground, so yeah, I'm in favor of changing the rules. That doesn't mean I like every change and it doesn't mean they don't go a little too far at times.

So I'm guessing you weren't a fan of the old school basketball back when hand checking was essentially allowed?

Go back and watch the way this game was played in the 60's, 70's and early 80's and then tell me about old school basketball.

Even Steve Kerr once said how the league is giving so much leeway for offensive players because they love all the scoring.

I can't stand the way they are allowing offensive stars to use contact to their benefit, I've complained about it often. I'm not pushing for more offense, I'm pushing for skilled basketball over bully ball.

 

[Yuma]

I'm okay with that, as long as the team is competitive, shows steady improvement and begins cultivating a winning culture. Unfortunately we're not seeing any of that yet.

From what I have seen so far, it looks like the changing of the offense and defense is taking these guys a while to learn. It is going to be a thing of beauty if/when the light bulb goes on for a bunch of them. It will be a journey. Ayton is like when we got Booker. You could just see the talent potential. It will be a joy to see Ayton develop, and the interplay between Ayton and Booker. I am not thinking we will make the playoffs. As long as we start playing better as a team I think the guys will be OK. If we play like last season, yeah, I can see them get discouraged.

 

[Yuma]

I can't stand the way they are allowing offensive stars to use contact to their benefit, I've complained about it often. I'm not pushing for more offense, I'm pushing for skilled basketball over bully ball.

Way back when I played basketball, I used to say, a guy has a right to stand in a spot. I would see guys literally not move, just be standing in a spot guarding a guy and get run into by a guy with a ball and get called for a foul. I think whichever player initiates the contact, that guy gets the foul. Juts like Shaq slamming into a guy to blast him away from the basket, then that guy gets the foul and Shaq gets an and one? Really?